Fury of Pandaria: PvE Fury in MoP

Warrior
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Quick question from basically a noob warrior. Is it possible to dual-wield polearms using TG? Seems strange that I can dual two 2-handed, 4 foot long, 10-15 pound axes but not two 6 foot long, 3-5 pound spears (or what have you). Thanks.
No, you can't dual-wield polearms (or staves).
What stat weights should I plug into Ask Mr Robot for ilvl 475~480? Can I find all of the fields by using simcraft? Collision has a short list of approximate numbers for ilvl 480 or so on page 38, but that doesn't cover Expertise, Hit under 7.5%, Mainhand DPS, or Offhand DPS.

I assume the S in SEP is Strength, so Strength should be set to 1 and everything else changes around that, but I'm not sure how, or how accurate Mr Robot's defaults are. These are the numbers I have, and the fields I need to fill: http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/64/5c67be4a3f4addd55cce7c3.png

I messed with the crit value a bit and i'm pretty sure it's higher than it should be, is it closer to 2.5 on that scale?

Nevermind, turns out weights are easy to get with simcraft!
Strength polearm should be interesting. Looks like they're expanding things a bit in this tier, I saw a spell fist (first time since Naxx I think) and a spell 2h mace. Also curious to see so much of the plate gear flooded with haste. It won't be as bad after the haste buff, but it's still a little annoying since it's still our worst stat and so much more desirable for ret/2h frost.

edit: forgot we can't use polearms and TG. although I wouldn't be shocked if they were looking to fix that sooner rather than later
http://ptr.wowdb.com/items/96501-primordius-talisman-of-rage
http://ptr.wowdb.com/items/96543-gaze-of-the-twins

Smells like BIS.


Dat second trinket.

I'll be in my bunk.
Notables thus far: (Forgive me for grammar/spelling/organization, I am sick, thus, which is why I have free time to do this. :P)

Raging Blow will start to pull away from execute in terms of rage efficiency, this tier RB and Execute have done about the same DPR, but with higher ilevel gear RB will definitely be used inbetween CS's as much as possible.

Damage per usage:
BT+DW = 47737 + 107342 = 155,079
RB: 161,024 -- 16,102 DPR
WS: 68,668 (103,002 per gcd with bloodsurge) -- 2288 DPR without Bloodsurge.
Execute: 393,910 - 13,130 DPR
HS: 61,235 - 2041.16 DPR
IV: 123,968 - 12396.8 DPR

Our talent build will not change at all, Bloodbath is still king, Storm bolt is a competitive choice and avatar just isn't very good. Dragon roar is the best overall talent from that tier, Shockwave is damn-near useless thanks to the pvp change, and bladestorm will be good on fights with heavy burst AoE required every 90-120 seconds.

Glyphs are the same Death from Above, Unending rage, and fight-specific choice. (Please don't use recklessness glyph, it's still a dps loss even with 4 piece T15)

Helm will be your offset piece of choice. Only because overcap hit is now our worst stat, and if you choose chest to be your offset piece, you will end up with 3500 hit and no way to get rid of it.

As mentioned above, plate dps this tier is itemized as such that it is very easy to get a lot of hit on your gear without trying. This means that ( http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=94515 ) is very unlikely to be a BIS trinket for us, unless that trinket proc turns out to be super-freaking awesome.

All of the trinkets this tier are great for us, however, unfortunately until more information comes out about the trinket ICDs, and how they work, we aren't going to know which ones are necessarily best. The haste trinket is probably low on the totem pole, though.

2 piece is pretty meh, just because it's hard to keep track of and could proc at inopportune times. Four piece, however, is pretty awesome. The best way to use it will most likely be:

Start: Recklessnesss
1 Minute: Skull Banner
4 minute: Skull Banner
5 minute: Reck
7 minute: Skull banner:

Each time using with bloodbath.

My BIS (Normal) list that I'm using in simcraft atm. Ignore the trinkets, as simcraft doesn't support the new trinkets and no one really knows how they work anyway.

head=crown_of_the_golden_golem,id=94958,gems=reverberating_primal_320crit_180str,reforge=haste_mastery
neck=talisman_of_angry_spirits,id=94766,enchant=20hit_15exp_-35mastery
shoulders=pauldrons_of_the_last_mogu,id=95334,gems=160exp_160crit_320crit_120crit,enchant=200str_100crit,reforge=exp_crit
back=hydrascale_bloodcloak,id=94942,gems=160crit_160hit_60str,enchant=180crit,reforge=exp_mastery
chest=battleplate_of_the_last_mogu,id=95331,gems=80str_160crit_320crit_160crit_160hit_180str,enchant=80all,reforge=haste_crit
wrists=bonecrusher_bracers,id=95128,gems=320crit,enchant=180str,reforge=exp_hit
hands=gauntlets_of_the_last_mogu,id=95332,gems=320crit_320crit,enchant=170str,addon=synapse_springs_mark_ii,reforge=hit_mastery
waist=cloudbreaker_greatbelt,id=94726,gems=160exp_160crit_320crit_320crit_120crit,reforge=haste_crit
legs=legplates_of_the_last_mogu,id=95333,gems=320crit_160crit_160hit_120str,enchant=285str_165crit
feet=tidal_force_treads,id=94976,gems=320crit,enchant=140mastery,reforge=haste_mastery
finger1=spinescale_seal,id=94795,reforge=hit_mastery
finger2=band_of_the_shadopan_assault,id=95140,reforge=haste_exp
trinket1=lei_shens_final_orders,id=87072,reforge=haste_crit
trinket2=relic_of_xuen,id=79327
main_hand=shellsplitter_greataxe,id=94768,gems=160crit_160hit_60str,enchant=dancing_steel
off_hand=shellsplitter_greataxe,id=94768,gems=160crit_160hit_60str,enchant=dancing_steel,reforge=hit_mastery

The enchant=20hit_15exp_-35mastery part on the neck is so that I'm hit/exp capped, as it's ridiculously hard to properly reforge everything manually, so I cheated.

# Gear Summary
# gear_strength=16449
# gear_agility=80
# gear_stamina=22552
# gear_intellect=80
# gear_spirit=80
# gear_expertise_rating=2550
# gear_hit_rating=2550
# gear_crit_rating=13428
# gear_haste_rating=2838
# gear_mastery_rating=4427

Stat values with 4 piece:
Str: 1
Overcap hit: 0.42
Crit: 0.83
Haste: 0.44
Mastery: 0.61

Stat values with 4 piece disabled:
Str: 1
Overcap hit: 0.42
Crit: 0.93
Haste: 0.45
Mastery: 0.60

It appears the the few changes that blizzard has put into place for fury has increased the value of strength slightly when compared to crit. Crit still gives about the same dps per point, but the dps per point of strength was increased a tad.
Now, for the question that many people have been asking me about. I really don't know why this is such a big concern for some guilds, as it's extremely unlikely to determine the outcome of any specific encounter...but here goes.

How do you deal with skull banner as a raid cooldown?

First, it's important to get a baseline. How much raid dps does a 25 man do without any skull banners whatsoever? For this, I put together a fairly typical raid group consisting of:
2 combat rogues
2 boomkins
2 fury warriors
1 kitty
2 affliction warlocks
3 fire mages (Arcane is broken on 5.2 simcraft.)
1 ret paladin
1 Frost DK
2 elemental shamans
1 enhance shaman

How much raid DPS does this group of merry bandits do without skull banner?
1,910,344 DPS

How about we assume that the 2 warriors are dropping banners left and right, not really giving a !@#$ if they overlap or not.
1,933,012 DPS, or a 22k dps increase. Not too shabby, basically a 1% raid dps increase.

What about 1 warrior drops skull banner at the start, then the next drops it 60 seconds later to line up with bloodbath/colossus smash. Then they use it on cooldown after.
1,958,212, another 22k dps raid increase, half of which comes from the 2 warriors themselves, whom gain 10k dps. Another 1%.

Now, what if we make it so the warriors drop their banners at the start, but staggered so that they do not overlap.
1,963,245, a 7k dps increase, which is well within the margin of error for simcraft.

Ultimately, I believe these numbers do not justify skull banner being used as a "Raid CD", as a piddling 1-2% dps gain is easily offset by having one or two members in your raid-group play better This 1-2% dps gain assumes completely perfect play from all of your raid-members, which is very optimistic in itself, and also assumes that the warriors do not mess up the skull banner rotation in the slightest.

With the 4 piece T15 set, Warriors will optimize raid AND personal dps by using skull banner to maximize personal dps. This will be achieved in 2 warrior rotations by having one warrior drop a banner at the start, then the next at 60 seconds. With one warrior, using reck at the start and skull banner a minute later is best.

TLDR:
Skull banner is actually a !@#$ty raid cooldown. Only 2 specs have any real synergy with it, fury and elemental shamans. Efforts to optimize the use of it are ultimately futile, as I doubt anyone has ever said "Man, if only we had that extra 0.25% dps ... the boss would have died," and even if that IS the case, that amount of damage is more easily made up from just 1 person in the raid playing better.
Pretty great stuff, thanks for all your work on this.

One question that comes to mind in lieu of the evolving efficiency of RB: Is there a point at which we'll want to RB instead of Execute inside a CS window? This is assuming rage isn't an issue, and we've properly pooled to be able to fit 4 executes in.
Is there any indication if SMF will remain top DPS into 5.2, or if TG will overtake it? I remember TG overtook SMF by mid-Cata (if I'm remembering right), but Fury plays a lot differently, so I'm curious.
Pretty great stuff, thanks for all your work on this.

One question that comes to mind in lieu of the evolving efficiency of RB: Is there a point at which we'll want to RB instead of Execute inside a CS window? This is assuming rage isn't an issue, and we've properly pooled to be able to fit 4 executes in.


Probably never.
Pretty great stuff, thanks for all your work on this.

One question that comes to mind in lieu of the evolving efficiency of RB: Is there a point at which we'll want to RB instead of Execute inside a CS window? This is assuming rage isn't an issue, and we've properly pooled to be able to fit 4 executes in.


If our ilevels ramped out of control into the 700+ range, it would eventually happen. But that's incredibly unlikely this expansion, and they would re-tune all of the numbers before the next expansion.

It's possible that TG may favor RB over Execute at some point this expansion, but I haven't really looked into it.
02/11/2013 12:19 AMPosted by Daxelle
Is there any indication if SMF will remain top DPS into 5.2, or if TG will overtake it? I remember TG overtook SMF by mid-Cata (if I'm remembering right), but Fury plays a lot differently, so I'm curious.


TG overtook SMF because of tier bonuses that favored TG (Firelands) and weapons that heavily favored TG. (Gurthalak vs Souldrinker/Agility 1 Hander)

So far there's no evidence that shows TG or SMF pulling away from each other. It will ultimately be decided on the ilevel of your weapons, but in equal gear/weapons, SMF will generally be 1-2% ahead of TG.
02/11/2013 12:23 AMPosted by Jalopy
One question that comes to mind in lieu of the evolving efficiency of RB: Is there a point at which we'll want to RB instead of Execute inside a CS window? This is assuming rage isn't an issue, and we've properly pooled to be able to fit 4 executes in.

Before SMF bonus, your weapons would need to so far outstrip every other piece of your gear in ilvl that 650% of your strength is less damage than 285% of your weapon damage(assuming equal weapons in both hands).
Where does the http://www.wowhead.com/item=77530 fall in the BiS Trinket order?
02/09/2013 08:17 AMPosted by Xirkos
edit: forgot we can't use polearms and TG. although I wouldn't be shocked if they were looking to fix that sooner rather than later


It sounds like they are working on it according to a couple recent tweets from Ghostcrawler, but doesn't look like it'll be ready for 5.2.

https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/status/300332710642216960

Albin Dahlander ‏@AlbinDahlander
@Ghostcrawler Hi GC! I recently saw a strength polearm at wowhead!, Will you make warriors able to dual wield it?

Greg Street Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler
@AlbinDahlander It's on the list, but unlikely before 5.2. Sorry.

Albin Dahlander Albin Dahlander ‏@AlbinDahlander
@Ghostcrawler Sorry for my vague question, I was referring to http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=96621 Will it be "dualwield-able" by the time 5.2 drops?

Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler
@AlbinDahlander Fury can't dual-wield polearms yet. :(
02/11/2013 07:01 PMPosted by Linojii
Where does the http://www.wowhead.com/item=77530 fall in the BiS Trinket order?


It's below...pretty much everything, as far as Collision's trinket list went. Not sure about the Darkmaster trinket, but the Carbuncle is better...I'm certain the Coaster is better. If you're using Ask Mr Robot's absolute ranking, it slaps it at top, but don't buy it.

Do you have any alternate trinket options?
The coaster is debatably better-more crit by 300, but 1200 less of your cap stats. And the proc sucks.
Hmm, so am I the only one that thinks it would be very beneficial to use Reck and Skull Banner (4pc) together during Execute phase. Only issue is that depending on our Crit values with that stacking trinket and everything. We might be wasting a lot of Crit.
02/13/2013 09:56 AMPosted by Ochron
Hmm, so am I the only one that thinks it would be very beneficial to use Reck and Skull Banner (4pc) together during Execute phase. Only issue is that depending on our Crit values with that stacking trinket and everything. We might be wasting a lot of Crit.


Considering I'm sitting at 32% crit fully buffed without any weird trinket procs, it's most likely a dps loss based on the wasted crit. The crit-proc trinket is likely to be a BIS item as well, which will probably push us over 45% with normal gear. Seems kind of a waste to use banner for 5% crit.

Start: Recklessnesss
1 Minute: Skull Banner
4 minute: Skull Banner
5 minute: Reck
7 minute: Skull banner:
10 minute: Reck/Banner (use reck)
11 minute: Banner
14 minute: Banner

To even consider doing that, the fight would have to be one of the following:
Between 5 and 7 minutes long
Between 10 and 13 minutes long

It's definitely a dps loss if you get one less banner/reck in on a fight. I'll look into those 2 specific scenarios and see what simcraft throws out.

I'm betting that the best way to use it on those 2 scenarios is just to save both for execute, but use them on 2 different bloodbaths. If the boss dies too quickly, just use them on 2 different colossus smashes.

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