Moonfarespam: The Moonkin PvE Guide (5.2)

Druid
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I was tempted to try a full out crit build myself. I had to work so hard to get to the 5k haste break point it was a little intimidating at one point. Now I need to regem and see where everything lies with some int + gems I think.

But I think I'll try those haste points first and see what I can see. I don't think it would be more dot ticks, and I doubt they would be pre-emptively gearing if crit would be better... I mean that is an answer, but it sounds wrong. I kind of think it must have to do with cast times for wrath and starsurge and maybe even starfire... I just don't know off the top of my head how much haste it takes to take how much time off those casts.
11/12/2012 07:22 AMPosted by Kuluvi
Can anyone tell me why Zoomkins and Bushino on Illidan have 5580 and 5590 haste respectively?


Zoomkins has 1k more crit than haste. Same with Bushino. Running through wowreforge with a few different set ups, that's the best I can see. They got their breakpoint with NG, still primarily going crit. They're also gemming more int than other boomkins. Couldn't explain why other than once you can get that breakpoint easily and still maintain 6k crit without full crit gems, int starts to pull ahead. I wouldn't have any other info to back that up though.

11/12/2012 07:22 AMPosted by Kuluvi
I keep meaning to try it out and see what it does, but the only thing I could think of would be making wrath closer to 1 sec cast time.


They have that haste for the breakpoint of another DoT tick with NG up. Nothing more. A couple hundred haste past the breakpoint isn't going to drastically reduce your casting speed or anything special like that.
Simple, really. The majority of HOF was single-target--which is where they were progressing.

Int > Haste(breakpoint) > Crit for Single-target

Crit absolutely destroys Haste in Multi-target

Crit > Int gemming increases your potential DPS cap, but lowers your "average" DPS through poor RNG sequences. Int > Crit gemming is just guaranteed damage.
11/12/2012 10:01 AMPosted by Daggy
Couldn't explain why other than once you can get that breakpoint easily and still maintain 6k crit without full crit gems, int starts to pull ahead. I wouldn't have any other info to back that up though.


Info!
The crit/int balance point:
http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t130885-balance_mists_pandaria_5_0_guide_discussion/p9/#post2208037

Aaaand, some intense maths:
http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t130885-balance_mists_pandaria_5_0_guide_discussion/p10/#post2209881
11/12/2012 12:42 PMPosted by Eluial
Couldn't explain why other than once you can get that breakpoint easily and still maintain 6k crit without full crit gems, int starts to pull ahead. I wouldn't have any other info to back that up though.


Info!
The crit/int balance point:
http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t130885-balance_mists_pandaria_5_0_guide_discussion/p9/#post2208037

Aaaand, some intense maths:
http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t130885-balance_mists_pandaria_5_0_guide_discussion/p10/#post2209881


Makes enough sense. Second link has an intense graph at the very start. I'll have to look that over after class, too much info for before. Thanks for links though! I've still got a ton to learn yet...
I posted the wrong tutorial on the PVP section instead. I have a tutorial on twitch.tv there on reforging/stats/rotation etc. I had no help and had to scourge the net and trying to up my dps week by week. Hopefully I can relate to alot of newcomers to the balance spec :) Hopefully I can help.

/benskicuz <--
General Tips for Terrace of the Endless Spring (TES):

Protectors of the Endless:
Multi-DOT the two non-focus bosses with your Eclipsed DOT, but keep your non-Eclipsed DOT rolling on the primary target. Pushing 95k with a poor Bloodlust (was 105k the previous pull for quite a while).

Tsulong:
I actually suggest DOC for this encounter. You'll see why if/when you attempt it. Please know that I sat for this encounter (volunteered), it's not very challenging though.

Lei Shi:
This is an annoying little boss. Use your CDs on cooldown (only if the boss has recently completed a "Hide" phase, or recently finished a "Protector" phase (use if boss hp % => 100/79/59/39/19 + 10% [30sec for a good damaging window]).

Sha of Fear:
It's a rough encounter for now, be sure to keep everything DOT'd and really exploit your self-healing for any Ominous Crackle phases where you get chosen. Having a Rejuv macro if recommended, Barkskin isn't half bad as well, be sure to use it on the DOT when you pick up a couple orbs. And be careful of Death Blossom: Tip -- LOS it.
I kind of need some help. My guild's working on normal Elegon and our best attempt tonight was a 40% enrage (which we identified as handling transitions terribly, but still). I usually have me gear set up to be good for main spec resto and decent for OS boomkin, but I'm trying to push as much DPS as possible.

Anyway, I was wondering how exactly I should handle DoTs. What I've been doing is casting both DoTs only when I hit an eclipse, then try to push to the next eclipse as quickly as possible. The problem is that I usually have 4-5 seconds of downtime on both between eclipses, which I suspect is losing me a decent chunk of DPS through lost Starsurge procs.

Is this actually not hurting me as badly as I think it does, or should I be practicing a different DoT rotation?

e: Also I realize some of my enchants are non-optimal, gonna try to replace those. I'm also a bit confused as to how to handle gemming when I don't need to match a bonus (such as on the PVP gear I'm using). Should I be gemming straight int in those sockets?

Also, for some reason, SimC is ranking haste as worth slightly more than crit. Any idea on what's causing that?
11/14/2012 07:14 AMPosted by Restorata
Also, for some reason, SimC is ranking haste as worth slightly more than crit. Any idea on what's causing that?

As we've known since the start, Haste > Crit for single-target (SimC). But Crit > Haste with anything more than 1 target.

11/14/2012 07:14 AMPosted by Restorata
Anyway, I was wondering how exactly I should handle DoTs. What I've been doing is casting both DoTs only when I hit an eclipse, then try to push to the next eclipse as quickly as possible. The problem is that I usually have 4-5 seconds of downtime on both between eclipses, which I suspect is losing me a decent chunk of DPS through lost Starsurge procs.

Through practice, I'm noticing that the rotation feels a lot better if you cast Starsurge at least two times during a Solar->Lunar push. Two Eclipsed Starusrge in Solar Eclipse is ideal (otherwise 4), but using that non-Eclipsed Starsurge to cut down on casting time is very helpful as well. this holds espeically true for Lunar Eclipse during heavy Multi-DOT encounters.

If you have any logs, I'd love to take a look and assess any issues, and highlight what you're doing correctly.
11/14/2012 12:57 PMPosted by Cyous
Also, for some reason, SimC is ranking haste as worth slightly more than crit. Any idea on what's causing that?

As we've known since the start, Haste > Crit for single-target (SimC). But Crit > Haste with anything more than 1 target.

If you have any logs, I'd love to take a look and assess any issues, and highlight what you're doing correctly.


Thanks. :)

Best Elegon attempt
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-sml2pxb3kmrj64o9/details/2/?s=7450&e=8029

Garajal kill
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-sml2pxb3kmrj64o9/details/2/?s=2575&e=2915

SK kill (this one's kind of a trainwreck because I mangled the opener and it went downhill from there)
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-sml2pxb3kmrj64o9/details/2/?s=4138&e=4664

Noticing right off the bat that I'm not taking advantage of cleaving on Elegon, so that's something I can work on.

For Garajal, I usually stay in the normal realm and tunnel the boss (using that "only cast DoTs on eclipse" rotation), but if one of the regular spirit realm DPS gets voodoo dolled, I go down and multidot.
Just to add on to Cyous' super helpful advice
11/14/2012 07:14 AMPosted by Restorata
Is this actually not hurting me as badly as I think it does, or should I be practicing a different DoT rotation?

I like to refresh my dots at the start and end of solar, but usually only once during lunar. I find that this timing works really well for my haste levels. The lunar refresh usually comes somewhere in the middle, which times it perfectly for a start of solar refresh, and then I clip before NG/solar expire to carry me back through to mid-lunar.

Obviously this gets thrown off with movement, multi dotting, etc. But that's the basic idea.

edit: re elegon, one thing I'm noticing is some really big gaps in your Touch of the Titans (damage done debuff) uptime. I'm not talking about the 1 min-ish gaps, which are obviously pillar phases, but like, 2-5s gaps elsewhere.

Do this. Go to the elegon log you linked, and click on the buffs gained tab. Then find Touch of the Titans under debuffs (middle column) and click the # next to it. You'll get a green bar under the DPS progress graph above that shows the uptime.

Now go here:
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/y12gfthndnrqvfrh/details/6/?s=9732&e=10234
and do the same thing. See the difference? That debuff is HUGE for elegon. As a caster, you should be positioning yourself on the very edge of the bubble, so that all you need to do is jump up to reset your debuff stacks. You can do this during a GCD for minimal DPS loss.

edit#2 woops, had the wrong link
Just to add on to Cyous' super helpful advice
Is this actually not hurting me as badly as I think it does, or should I be practicing a different DoT rotation?

I like to refresh my dots at the start and end of solar, but usually only once during lunar. I find that this timing works really well for my haste levels. The lunar refresh usually comes somewhere in the middle, which times it perfectly for a start of solar refresh, and then I clip before NG/solar expire to carry me back through to mid-lunar.

Obviously this gets thrown off with movement, multi dotting, etc. But that's the basic idea.


Thanks Eluial, I'll try that.

I'm just worried that I'm losing a lot of SS procs with my method. :x
11/14/2012 03:25 PMPosted by Restorata
I'm just worried that I'm losing a lot of SS procs with my method. :x

Yeah, that's a big worry. Also, just edited my above post with some elegon advice.

going to edit this post for more elegon advice.

CD usage:
The encounter is timed quite nicely for moonkin CDs. The start of each phase 1 comes roughly every 3 mins (or should if you're on track to beat the enrage), meaning we get to use our CDs every P1. During the pillar phases, try your best to get your eclipse bar positioned optimally (so, close-ish to lunar eclipse). Once you're re positioned when P1 starts again, bring out the big guns with Inc/NV and CA.
11/14/2012 03:32 PMPosted by Eluial
I'm just worried that I'm losing a lot of SS procs with my method. :x

Yeah, that's a big worry. Also, just edited my above post with some elegon advice.

going to edit this post for more elegon advice.

CD usage:
The encounter is timed quite nicely for moonkin CDs. The start of each phase 1 comes roughly every 3 mins (or should if you're on track to beat the enrage), meaning we get to use our CDs every P1. During the pillar phases, try your best to get your eclipse bar positioned optimally (so, close-ish to lunar eclipse). Once you're re positioned when P1 starts again, bring out the big guns with Inc/NV and CA.


Alright, thanks a lot.

I think the big gaps in my damage debuff were from strafing to drop the stacks (and maybe stopping to cast while out for some of the longer ones). I forgot I could just jump for it.

Actually on phase 2 I know I was forgetting to stay in the ring for a few attempts, so that's definitely something I need to work on.
Hey there. I'm Just a little confused. I seem to be reading several things here. Should we be aiming for the haste breakpoint of 5273 (correct me if im wrong with this number please)

Or should we be stacking Crit? Or should we be changing our stats per boss encounter?

My current armory is something im just trying out for the time. I usually sit at 5273 haste. I just wanted to try out a crit build.

Im just having some issues with my dps at the moment. I tend to get nervous and off heal a little, but here is some logs. http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-3il6vaew28j2mg29/

Also, In a heavy movement fight, what is the best way to min/ max damage. Like Obviously dots, but is it worth it to put mushrooms down? And is hurricane better in solar or lunar? I seen a druid parse number 1 on windlord so i figured it was worth a shot.

Sorry for all the questions, i'm a decent player, just seem a little lost this patch.
11/14/2012 06:00 PMPosted by Adanessa
My current armory is something im just trying out for the time. I usually sit at 5273 haste. I just wanted to try out a crit build.


I was having major performance issues (primarily doing so little DPS that I wasn't worth bringing to anything.) Got a chance to talk with a really good boomkin that helped me out some, mostly with how I was gemming/reforging. Final conclusion of our chats was that the haste breakpoint is definitely worth more DPS than ignoring it for more crit More ticks for more chances at procs + just more damage.

Keep your haste breakpoint. Crit with the rest. For the raiding most people will do, that'll be enough. Once you pass a certain int/crit point, it becomes worth it to go back to gemming Int as main stat again, but that's quite a while away for a lot of people right now.

11/14/2012 06:00 PMPosted by Adanessa
Or should we be changing our stats per boss encounter?


If you happen to be progressing on a series of single target bosses, or different bosses in the same raid and you want to optimize for each, sure. Haste > crit in pure single target scenarios. Crit gains value exponentially as you increase the number of targets you can DoT and therefore get SS procs from.

11/14/2012 06:00 PMPosted by Adanessa
Also, In a heavy movement fight, what is the best way to min/ max damage.


Honestly, at this point I ignore trying to DPS on the move and just get to where I need to be, allowing increased uptime in hardcasting. Trying to move and place shrooms could get you killed.

11/14/2012 06:00 PMPosted by Adanessa
hurricane better in solar


Solar being the better one for AoE.

11/14/2012 06:00 PMPosted by Adanessa
Sorry for all the questions, i'm a decent player, just seem a little lost this patch.


Most people with knowledge enjoy helping people that want to learn and improve. It's the people that feel entitled that we don't care about. Glad to help in any possible way.
Hi,

I just wanted to add my opinion on the battle between haste and crit, for those of you wondering what you should gem and reforge for.

Now, I have the gear to reach 5273 haste. And I did that. However, my dps was falling behind the rest of my raid group. Recently, I finally made the decision to completely ignore haste, and maximize my crit. And let me tell you, that made a HUGE increase in my single target dps. Probably went up a solid 4-5k sustained dps gain from it.

So my advice is that this is wrong for intermediate gear levels:
Secondary stat priority:
Spirit/Hit til cap > Haste til highest break point you can reach > crit > haste after break point >= mastery


And your best be really, is more of a:
Hit cap > Crit > haste > mastery.

And using the 320 crit gem in all gem sockets, except when you can get Int from the bonus, or you need the spirit from a bonus. Otherwise, ignore all other socket bonuses and max that crit!
Hi,

I just wanted to add my opinion on the battle between haste and crit, for those of you wondering what you should gem and reforge for.

Now, I have the gear to reach 5273 haste. And I did that. However, my dps was falling behind the rest of my raid group. Recently, I finally made the decision to completely ignore haste, and maximize my crit. And let me tell you, that made a HUGE increase in my single target dps. Probably went up a solid 4-5k sustained dps gain from it.

So my advice is that this is wrong for intermediate gear levels:
Secondary stat priority:
Spirit/Hit til cap > Haste til highest break point you can reach > crit > haste after break point >= mastery


And your best be really, is more of a:
Hit cap > Crit > haste > mastery.

And using the 320 crit gem in all gem sockets, except when you can get Int from the bonus, or you need the spirit from a bonus. Otherwise, ignore all other socket bonuses and max that crit!


I wouldn't be so quick to jump to conclusions on your gemming. Throwing your current character into WrathCalcs, your estimated average DPS is 69211. With 1737 extra haste and 1737 less crit to reach the 5273 haste breakpoint, your DPS goes up to 70668. For single target, it is possible haste > crit, but I can't tell from this simulation. What I can tell, however, is that getting to the haste breakpoint > crit, and from there on it depends on your situation. The more crit you dump on your gear, however, the more the other stats (int/haste/mastery) will be worth, relatively. So because it's pretty dynamic, your best bet is to import yourself in WrathCalcs (http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t114017-balance_wrathcalcs/p41/) and see for yourself what's the best reforging/gemming scenario.

PS. On the earlier int/crit vs. crit gemming discussion: I would be using int/crit gems as well, but since I'm doing challenge modes I find I can't reach the haste breakpoint while in the challenge modes if I use int/crit gems. In fact, I have to use quite a few pure haste gems to get there comfortably.
11/15/2012 07:31 AMPosted by Slippykins
PS. On the earlier int/crit vs. crit gemming discussion: I would be using int/crit gems as well, but since I'm doing challenge modes I find I can't reach the haste breakpoint while in the challenge modes if I use int/crit gems. In fact, I have to use quite a few pure haste gems to get there comfortably.

So you're finding that the haste breakpoint is worth reaching even in challenge modes? I would have thought crit would be the best way for plowing through trash as soon as possible.

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