Moonfarespam: The Moonkin PvE Guide (5.2)

Druid
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http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1264467-Balance-T15H-BiS-List?p=20251069&viewfull=1#post20251069

inc. haste vs. crit build debates again.
02/17/2013 08:09 PMPosted by Slippykins
inc. haste vs. crit build debates again.
/sigh

As much as I love this spec...I really wish our rotation or stat weights could stay fairly consistent, or at least not be called into question, from tier to tier.

Also I read your post and the major thing that I'm seeing a lack of in consideration to stat weights is the same thing that shifted the balance this tier: fight type. You are showing haste to be better to the next breakpoint, but thats the case this tier. Its just that every fight has a secondary target or movement which makes crit pull ahead. Its not something that can be ignored or just simmed out. Which makes me wonder if we start gearing for the next breakpoint if we are going to have to revert to crit again, just like this tier, due to haste not actually outperforming crit in actual situations.
There is a metric ton of non-Crit gear on Ra-den (booooo), I really cringed at all the blue sockets.

02/17/2013 09:36 PMPosted by Tagartou
I'm seeing a lack of in consideration to stat weights is the same thing that shifted the balance this tier: fight type

I agree.

Remember when we had this discussion in early T14? Haste was the way to go, yada-yada? Now everyone says Crit is the way to go, yada-yada? I really only see the Haste breakpoints being valuable if it's "right there" (within 320 rating, no reforging, no gemming)(if it's within that 320 range, then you gem for it)
inc. haste vs. crit build debates again.
/sigh

As much as I love this spec...I really wish our rotation or stat weights could stay fairly consistent, or at least not be called into question, from tier to tier.

Also I read your post and the major thing that I'm seeing a lack of in consideration to stat weights is the same thing that shifted the balance this tier: fight type. You are showing haste to be better to the next breakpoint, but thats the case this tier. Its just that every fight has a secondary target or movement which makes crit pull ahead. Its not something that can be ignored or just simmed out. Which makes me wonder if we start gearing for the next breakpoint if we are going to have to revert to crit again, just like this tier, due to haste not actually outperforming crit in actual situations.


I agree with you, and this is what I asked Cyous of earlier last week. I wanted to categorise each of the fights in Throne of Thunder under "single-target", "multi-target" or "damage mod", so as to determine what we can expect. Also, adding "movement" to any fight can make crit come ahead. So while I don't want to make ostentatious conclusions right now, I do want to point out that I don't want us switching haste/crit builds mid-tier like we did with 5.1. At the moment, I'm merely trying to show that the haste breakpoint on paper is an increase, and a good deal at that. WrathCalcs can determine the steady-state DPS of a single-target fight, but that's about all it can do.

So if anyone would like to tabulate the fights in Throne of Thunder and find out how many fights are multi-target specifically for haste vs. crit, post your results somewhere I can see. On a fight with 2 or more targets, crit should be better than it is on paper.

This is also the reason we stopped considering DoC in our builds - because it wasn't practical. It still isn't practical for multi-targets, and I've got the feeling that the FoN-hype is unaccounted for. It really can't compare to Incarnation when there's multiple targets or any sort of damage modifier.

Edit: looking at the increase of getting to the haste breakpoint, it's only 1.34% DPS. May not be as significant as I'd thought. I'm going to have a look at the fights and see how many multi-target fights there are to judge whether or not hitting the breakpoint is worthwhile. Will also decide if treants are useful or not.

Looks like all the fights in Throne of Thunder, except Jin'rokh and Iron Qon are fights with 2 or more targets up for a majority of the fight. Still not making conclusions yet, but it does look like crit will be favoured.
02/18/2013 12:36 AMPosted by Slippykins
Looks like all the fights in Throne of Thunder, except Jin'rokh and Iron Qon are fights with 2 or more targets up for a majority of the fight. Still not making conclusions yet, but it does look like crit will be favoured.

Need to factor in movement too (Iron Qon is terrible for us, so much movement; I was carried by my 537 ilvl during Heroic testing. Very hard to perform well on that encounter.)
Hi! Sorry to have been MIA the past few weeks. I'm suffering from some pretty heavy burn out, so been trying to give myself a little room and hoping that 5.2 brings the excitement back.

I've been reading over the discussions and trying to keep up with the PTR notes on MMO-Champ. Never did make it to the PTR and at this point I have no intention to.

I'll be doing a broad update for 5.2 over this weekend. I'll probably continue to recommend crit over haste, given the nature of the fights, for the time being. But as always, things can change pretty quickly once lots of people start doing the fights and figuring things out.

Glad to see some (albeit minor) baseline buffs. Disappointed that tier bonuses weren't changed.

I'm thinking keeping T14 4pc until you can replace 2 items with higher ilvl, and keeping 2pc until you get T15 4pc is what's currently making the most sense to me right now, but fully admit there's no math behind those statements.

Unending Vision and Essence of Brilliance seem to be the two obvious trinket picks for us this tier. Volatile Talisman might be a good 3rd place, and worth picking up immediately to replace DMC. Thoughts?
02/18/2013 02:13 PMPosted by Eluial
Unending Vision and Essence of Brilliance seem to be the two obvious trinket picks for us this tier. Volatile Talisman might be a good 3rd place, and worth picking up immediately to replace DMC. Thoughts?

Yes. The ilvl difference is giant, lots of static Int.
Cyous, couple questions.

1) where is the "within 320 of a breakpoint" thing coming from? Not challenging it, just haven't seen a thread or something where you break it down, so I'm curious. Is it just the gem value number, or does it have some other significance.

2) Why wouldn't Unerring Vision and the new dot snapshot mechanic overvalue haste? With the way real PPM works, it's based off your haste. And if dots are refreshed while the trinket is up, then crit's value goes way, WAY down (since its primary value for us is in its ability to proc SS and 100% crit snapshotted dots means for the duration of those dots, crit has very little significant value to us). Sure, SS crits are nice, and they extend dots, but at that point it seems like both haste and crit suddenly go down the drain, and mastery comes up. Or maybe just raw int/SP go even higher than they are.

OK, the second question is really for anyone, actually. Let's discuss!
02/18/2013 11:01 PMPosted by Eluial
1) where is the "within 320 of a breakpoint" thing coming from? Not challenging it, just haven't seen a thread or something where you break it down, so I'm curious. Is it just the gem value number, or does it have some other significance.

It's not supported by math, but it also goes for both the NG and non-NG breakpoints specifically to cater to the 100% Crit trinket. You really don't want to sacrifice Crit, at all, but if you had to, 320 would be a solid number to consider. I specifically used 320 to reflect the gem value.

02/18/2013 11:01 PMPosted by Eluial
2) Why wouldn't Unerring Vision and the new dot snapshot mechanic overvalue haste? With the way real PPM works, it's based off your haste


The good people at HowToPriest were doing some math and with 0% Haste, you can expect 1 proc per 2min (0.5 RPPM, 120sec). Due to how RPPM is calculated (I believe it's also based off the trinket's trigger event: OnCrit, OnHit, etc; the RPPM value changes.) we can expect an ICD of ~105sec. The only reason to run haste would be to influence an extra DOT tick, but the real strength still belongs to Crit for Starsurge DOT extension (remember how 1 Crit from SS = 1 Haste Breakpoint?). You want to still stack Crit specifically to boost the hell out of Starsurge (you should be expecting a 40% Crit rate with Starsurge in 522 gear[normal; 2pc]; and a 45-50% crit rate with 537 gear [heroic: 2pc]; play tested results). Starsurge will not be guaranteed to Crit, unlike our DOTs.
The good people at HowToPriest were doing some math and with 0% Haste, you can expect 1 proc per 2min (0.5 RPPM, 120sec). Due to how RPPM is calculated (I believe it's also based off the trinket's trigger event: OnCrit, OnHit, etc; the RPPM value changes.) we can expect an ICD of ~105sec. The only reason to run haste would be to influence an extra DOT tick, but the real strength still belongs to Crit for Starsurge DOT extension (remember how 1 Crit from SS = 1 Haste Breakpoint?). You want to still stack Crit specifically to boost the hell out of Starsurge (you should be expecting a 40% Crit rate with Starsurge in 522 gear[normal; 2pc]; and a 45-50% crit rate with 537 gear [heroic: 2pc]; play tested results). Starsurge will not be guaranteed to Crit, unlike our DOTs.

Can you provide a link? From my understanding, RPPM fluctuates with haste and with "time since last proc" where it's RPPM rate * haste * (time since last chance to proc/60). If that's the case, trigger event type should have no effect on the actual rate. It's already taken into account in the RPPM number, which we've been given (.5 for this trinket).

Running haste specifically to cater to this trinket would be more for the PPM benefit than the extra dot tick.

I mean, I feel pretty confident that crit will continue to be our main secondary, since the trinket isn't going to have a huge uptime anyway.

Bah, I don't know, it's 12:30 and I'm tired and not making much sense. I think crit and haste will stay more or less where they are right now.
02/19/2013 12:34 AMPosted by Eluial
Can you provide a link? From my understanding, RPPM fluctuates with haste and with "time since last proc" where it's RPPM rate * haste * (time since last chance to proc/60). If that's the case, trigger event type should have no effect on the actual rate. It's already taken into account in the RPPM number, which we've been given (.5 for this trinket).

I cannot, mostly because I can't remember the google search I used to find that info, I do remember them using ~8k Haste.

Oh, I see what I was mistaking ~ GC was talking about a meta gem proc. Nevermind that. The fact remains that it's takes a ton of Haste to lower the RPPM ICD trinkets to a "favorable" number. For someone who has been a busy bee the past couple weeks, damn Feels bad to start theorycrafting with false datah. :(
Good news - while it's still a work-in-progress, Hamlet's starting to allow WrathCalcs to support and model 2- and 3-target fights! Hopefully this will give us all a definitive answer on how to approach 5.2, in terms of stat priorities and breakpoints.
I took a look a SimC to try and create an AI for multi-dot'ing: I'll need to try again later ~ didn't look fun at the time. Doesn't look to bad, though; I'll try at add multiple conditions, especially a "Starsurge Weave" thingy. ("Thingy" is the proper term for this gizmotronicon.) I think having two models will offer great results to compare to one other, considering we're still debating Haste Breakpoints ~ 5 months into this expansion.
So, I don't know that this will really come as a big surprise, but I've decided to step down from the role of guide maintainer here. Cyous is taking over. \o/

Look forward to some exciting stuff from him in the near future.

<3
Awe! We'll miss you Eluial but I think Cyous is a good replacement. He has clearly shown the patience and presence here to be able to help the new and old moonkin floating around.
So, I don't know that this will really come as a big surprise, but I've decided to step down from the role of guide maintainer here. Cyous is taking over. \o/

Look forward to some exciting stuff from him in the near future.

<3
but cyous is so...mathy. He'll scare away any potential moonkins and just confuse the rest of us!

Okay unreasonable panic is out of my system. I'm sure he'll do great and I wish you the best of luck in whatever you'll be doing instead of maintaining a sticky.
02/27/2013 09:03 PMPosted by Eluial
So, I don't know that this will really come as a big surprise, but I've decided to step down from the role of guide maintainer here.


You did a great job maintaining one of the most popular and informative Moonkin guides out there for the better part of, what was it, 3 years? For that, a huge thanks is due from the Moonkin community :D All the best in all your future endeavours :) I have no doubt Cyous will continue to do just as great a job.
): we'll miss you Eluliauialil.
Don't expect much from me. In fact, lower your expectations please. You'll notice I'll be doing better than expected, which is good for everyone--maybe. After a 2min chat with Eluial, I learned she was done playing Queen of Moonkins. With that said, we should all keep in mind that Eluial put in a lot of effort for the betterment of the community.

Social interactions among players, especially in a small group environment, create untold standards. Experienced players normally have no issues with these hidden expectations, but newer players are just that: new. Guides like this provide a valuable resource for new players and experienced players alike. Very few players learned how to play on their own terms. It's almost an impossibility to not learn from someone else. Eluial maintained a path for new players to follow. She enabled new players to learn and indirectly bettered the game by doing so.

We've all seen some horrible players. Players refusing to listen, take advice, or just work as a team. As a former "horrible Moonkin," I owe a lot to this exact guide for providing details and explanations to better myself as a player. Sure, you can watch streams or videos and learn that way. Until you understand why someone uses a particular ability in a particular situation, you really do not know anything at all. This guide explains why we make our choices. It allows the reader to apply basic knowledge and transform it into critical thinking. The goal of any excellent guide is to make the reader aware, understand, and apply the information within. For the past few years, Eluial had kept to this standard of excellence. Very few guides are as detailed as this one. Very few guides can be proclaimed as excellent.

Way back in the start of Cataclysm(4.0), I was new to Moonkin. I had no other players to talk with. I had no communication with other druids playing Moonkin on the server. I was forced to learn on my own. After spending hours trying to figure things out, I gave up. I went to the forums for help and ended up finding this exact guide. A few years later, I've gone from your average "Weekend Warrior" (nice way of saying "casual player"), to a top tier player able to stand with those on the world stage. We all started off as bad players. Whether you came from another MMO or not, no one turns into the best player without first going through the "scrub" phase. From experience, this guide will definitely help anyone become a better player. When you no longer need the guide, you should be able to understand when to apply the more advanced tactics. If you get to that point--you know exactly how to play your specc.

Whether or not you play for the sake of having a good time, no one ever wants to be "that guy" who simply does not play well. Being good at your specc is important for you because it affects the players around you. Didn't get an invite to raid? Maybe reading a guide or two may help. In today's environment skill triumphs gear. Gear comes naturally, skill is learned through experience and knowledge. The Moonfare spam has been helping new and old players become aware of the "correct" playstyle. There have even been instances of raid leaders reading this very guide to pass to their struggling members. Everyone benefits when a struggling player improves.

The most important thing a guide will do for a new player is spark an interest. Eluial wrote an easy to read/simple to understand, guide for the sake of everyone. Being able to enjoy the playstyle you've taken will keep you playing the game. While Moonkin isn't for everyone, it has a lot going on. It keeps me focused. I'm not spamming Arcane Blast for 10min at a time. There is a depth of complexity which only a few speccs reach. Whether it be for fun or a curiosity, the complexity of Moonkin has increased over the years. We're still the only specc who must completely understand an encounter and its timers to achieve "average" numbers.

A guide cannot teach you how to handle every possible situation. A guide should teach you how to handle the generic mechanics. Let your knowledge help determine those uncertain moments. Starfall, that over-scripted spell, has a lot of misuses. Maybe popping Starfall during a CC phase isn't a good idea. Using Starfall just before an intermission phase doesn't do diddly-squat. Being able to handle your spells properly against the encounter will prove to be the hardest thing you can do in PvE. "Skill Check" encounters, such a Heroic Spirit Kings, force the player to play almost flawlessly. There is no guide that will make you play better. Guides will only help you understand how to play better (yes, there is a difference). Moonfare Spam has continued to help players understand how to play.

Whether or not it's absolutely 100% perfect, or just 99% perfect; it just needed to make players understand how play properly. It most certainly has done its intent. I'll do my best to keep this guide as informative as possible. (I won't turn it into an algebra book.) Thank you for the help back in early Cataclysm. I know I'm not the only one who learned from your guide, and I'm sure those players are thankful for the cache of information you've made available. I hope you continue to play ~ or at least stay in touch. Best of luck in your future endeavors; have fun being a casual!

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NEED SOME FEEDBACK HERE
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTVT28JcHuI
-- Planning on commentary and play-by-play; need feedback to "why did you do this and not that?"
Whether or not it's absolutely 100% perfect, or just 99% perfect; it just needed to make players understand how play properly. It most certainly has done its intent. I'll do my best to keep this guide as informative as possible. (I won't turn it into an algebra book.) Thank you for the help back in early Cataclysm. I know I'm not the only one who learned from your guide, and I'm sure those players are thankful for the cache of information you've made available


^This. You've done an astounding job with the upkeep of this guide. Throughout my history of playing a druid I've continuously bounced back and forth between Resto and Balance, hopefully now to remain a moonkin forever! In returning to the spec around Dragon Soul, this very thread was a key component in refilling that void of knowledge and reigniting a passion for the spec. In turn, this has been the front line of recommendation I provide to moonkins that occasionally come to me. I haven't the slightest lack of confidence in Cyous' assuming of the mantle, but your extensive history of contribution to this point should not go unrecognized. You have my utmost gratitude and respect, Eluial! Best of wishes going forward!

I hope you continue to play ~ or at least stay in touch. Best of luck in your future endeavors

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