Moonfarespam: The Moonkin PvE Guide (5.2)

Druid
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not sure on that one, why a caster would be mele-ing in the first place confuses me, but I'll try and find out.
09/14/2012 02:43 PMPosted by Eluial
Yeah, pretty much this. That's why I like sims for this sort of thing. It's the same single-target-DPS-in-a-vacuum thing, but at least it's hundreds/thousands of iterations to smooth out the RNG edges.
Agreed...which is why I ran sims for it! And I uploaded the files so that any skeptics can check things!

All done on 10000 iterations of 10 min fights with only our buffs.

Using bubbageos gear with his reforging(haste>mastery>crit)

1 DoT per eclipse: 32620 dps
source: http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=02758859109610941826&gk=hyip

2 DoTs per eclipse: 34545 dps
Source: http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=80797483983988696846&gk=hotel

Using bubbageos gear with the following reforging/gemming changes(http://chardev.org/profile/416262-test1.html)

1 DoT per eclipse: 32811 dps
Source: http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=07251870732168852384&gk=money

2 DoTs per eclipse: 34861 dps
Source: http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=07275721435129821002&gk=money
Try this:
Lunar Eclipse - 2 DOTs (refresh Moonfire in Lunar if duration <= 7sec)
Solar Eclipse - 1 DOT (refresh Sunfire in Solar Eclipse)
09/12/2012 08:58 PMPosted by Bubbageo
hard casts bring you closer to your next 15% haste buff, dots do not


Not as true as you make it out to be. More starsurges from dots result in instant casts that grant 20 eclipse energy. So you don't necessarily reach your next eclipse 1 gcd faster by casting 1 less dot

And as far as the argument for more starfalls goes, you only get 1 starfall more over 30-ish eclipse cycles. The difference in starfall damage we are seeing in short tests probably is because one test just managed to have a luner eclipse more than the other. If they each had 10-15 seconds more, the difference likely wouldn't show.

Single dotting is also in part only as viable as it is right now because of our haste levels. With insignia procced, you can probably race to the next eclipse fast enough while only dotting once such that you will see both eclipsed dots up at some point. With the lack of insignia, as well as much slower nukes come mop, your dot uptime, and consequently also your starsurge damage, will be much more abysmal with putting up only the eclipsed dot at the start of eclipse.

Edit: Did a couple more tests with the CA bug fix and crit calculator changes. Although dummy dps was noticably lower, my results are more or less consistent with what tagartou simmed, with my double dot rotations being on average 8% higher than with single dotting
09/12/2012 08:58 PMPosted by Bubbageo
It's not a notion, it's math. They do more damage per the amount of time that they require than any other spell, except starfall. Starsurge is close behind them. And Wrath and Starfire are way below.


Okay, so we've established that you're able to look at one number and see that it's bigger than another number. Case closed, right?

http://simulationcraft.org/505/Druid_Balance_Dummy.html

I assume you are using this chart as the basis for your statement. However, saying that dots are second in DPET only to starfall takes into consideration both eclipsed dots and uneclipsed dots. The only cast in debate here is an uneclipsed dot.

Yes they have a bigger number on the tool tip. But here are the following reasons why this is misleading:

1) dots crit in tics, hard casts (as Eluial points out in this very thread) crit for 209% outright
2) dots have haste breakpoints
3) hard casts bring you closer to your next 15% haste buff, dots do not
4) using both dots means 2-4 GCDs LONGER before each starfall cast, which
as you can see on the chart blows away every other spell by a country mile

So to summarize:
Double dots- very slightly more starsurge procs

Single dots- simpler rotation, higher haste buff uptime, and an increase in
starfall casts



You can make arguments for your case that sound convincing on paper, and you can also point out how simcraft skews certain things in favor of something else, but one can also do the exact same for his own (opposing) view point. At the end of the day, it requires maths/tests to determine which trumps which, and personally from my own tests the winner is clear. It's also evident that many others are seeing almost identical results.

That you are not is imo because you aren't correctly executing the double-dot rotation. I can think of no other explanation, as it's unlikely that many other testers and myself are executing the single-dot rotation wrong due to its simplicity (which you pointed out). And while we're touching on the simplicity of rotations, I'd like to think that Blizz rewards more complicated and attention-demanding rotations with more dps, as is precisely the case with what we've been seeing with regard to Single dotting vs Double dotting and watching out for when to clip.
I'd like to think that Blizz rewards more complicated and attention-demanding rotations with more dps.


One of the most ludicrous things you possibly could have said.

This has never been true in Warcraft, and never will be.

Also, as much as I enjoy being condescended to by someone who plugged at DS for 10 months to get 3 HC kills, I know how to do a rotation on a stationary target dummy. But thanks.

The debate revolves around the designer's intent for the class, based on the fact that the two rotations are neck on neck. Double dotting is clunky and requires heavy micromanaging. Fun for some, tedious for others. A single dot on the other hand is fluid and super efficient (never a second of dot duration or extension wasted). The second is strongly preferable in a raid situation. Holding up 95% double dot uptime while standing still on a target dummy is one thing. Doing it while ducking fire or tab dotting is another entirely.

Also, it's pretty universally agreed that wrath needs a buff, being as weak as it currently is. If/when it gets one, which playstyle will surely come out ahead? Obviously we'll see in a few weeks. Currently we can only grasp at straws.

EDIT: Ty for the sims Tagar, interesting stuff.
Hmm. Aren't we a tad bit hostile tonight.

And..

09/16/2012 12:41 AMPosted by Bubbageo
Also, as much as I enjoy being condescended to by someone who plugged at DS for 10 months to get 3 HC kills, I know how to do a rotation on a stationary target dummy. But thanks.


..Damn, don't you know how to low-blow a player!

For someone so relentlessly cocksure on their stance despite countless evidence to the contrary, you'd hope that you would make more sense in a post like that.

When we've been running with two dots up since Cata launch, have dots that are 2nd in dpet to only 1 other spell, have dots that proc our strongest nuke, and output nearly 10% more damage with both dots up as compared to just one on a patchwerk (although I suppose this might be a moot point since a difference like that means 'neck-to-neck' to you), I think the design intent for the most part is fairly clear. While no doubt exceptions will arise, I think it's been fairly well established what the go for now is.

Also, your definition of 'super-efficiency' seems to be 'damage-per-buttons-i-have-to-hit', as opposed to, well, damage per second. If a particular rotation requires the exact same finite in-game resources to yield more DPS, whilst only requiring additional effort on your part in the way of external resources, then it is, for all intents and purposes, more efficient. I honestly don't know if a definition like yours would apply in any context.

09/16/2012 12:41 AMPosted by Bubbageo
Double dotting is clunky and requires heavy micromanaging. Fun for some, tedious for others. A single dot on the other hand is fluid and super efficient (never a second of dot duration or extension wasted). The second is strongly preferable in a raid situation. Holding up 95% double dot uptime while standing still on a target dummy is one thing. Doing it while ducking fire or tab dotting is another entirely.


This says nothing other than 'Easy to move out of fire when doing simple rotation, ergo, simple rotation > hard rotation that nets more dps.' There really isn't any other way this can be interpreted. While it might be preferable to some, it clearly isn't the best course of action to execute in such situations as described by yourself. You seem to have (inadvertently?) implied yourself that multi dotting would yield more dps in said situation, yet you went on to add that the simpler rotation would be better for no reason other than because it's simpler.

I hate to blight Eluial's guide with a post as vitriolic as this, but I feel I had to respond when you not-so-subtly hinted that my lack of progression in DS had to do with my personal shortcomings, as opposed to the various real life constraints that a guy in the military like myself experiences.
Checked out Zoomkins from Blood Legion videos for MoP raid testing. Granted, they were posted 2 months ago, but he appears to be casting Wrath instead of Starfire during Incarnation.

Is he counting on the shorter cast time of Wrath making up for it hitting less than Starfire so we have we been doing it wrong by using Starfire? Or are his videos outdated due to recent changes in spell damage in the beta?

Single-target test on Stone Guard 10N
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhOGIK3hVck

Multi-target test on Stone Guard 10N
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJI_DnLPQaU

Spirit Kings 10N
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMXeCV6P_s0
09/16/2012 09:45 AMPosted by Phaydre
Is he counting on the shorter cast time of Wrath making up for it hitting less than Starfire so we have we been doing it wrong by using Starfire?


Hmm, starfire definitely has higher dps than wrath. The only edge wrath might have is that it probably ends up extending the duration of the dot more, since you will cast more wraths than starfire in a given duration, but this is generally not taken into account since dots are typically refreshed again at the end of CA. I'm pretty curious about why he's doing that myself.

Edit: Also looks like he's not going with the conventional opener of 3x starfall chain on stone guards. Going off his logs, his reason for favoring solar eclipse might possibly be because of the shaman's stormlash totem, which used to do insane nature damage at the time he took the video.
09/16/2012 09:59 AMPosted by Velaniz
his reason for favoring solar eclipse might possibly be because of the shaman's stormlash totem, which used to do insane nature damage at the time he took the video.

This plus the big starfire buff/wrath nerf was more recent than 2 months ago. I believe at the time SF and wrath were pretty similar in terms of DPET.

----------------
Regarding the rotation discussion, and more specifically, the stuff about the intent of the designers: quite frankly, their intent means very little in terms of what the max DPS rotation is. Just because they want us to act a certain way, it doesn't mean that that's the best way to act. Most of the time if they see a class or spec playing very differently from what they intended, they will nerf/buff appropriately to bring them in line. But often it's close enough that they just let it be.

As I'm not personal friends with the moonkin spec designer, nor am I psychic, I can only speculate about what they intended. But I can use in-game tests, sims and math to come up with the max-DPS rotation and learn to execute that properly in all sorts of raid environments. If the developers don't like that and they choose to change things around, then I will learn the new max-DPS rotation and use that.

I don't see what is so sacred about the intent of the designers. Whether or not we're *supposed* to use 2 dots, right now that's what works best. Maybe in 4 weeks that won't be what works best, and we'll change things. But right now, it does. I don't see how you can say much more than that.

If you don't want to do the most damage you can do, but rather prefer the ease of a simpler rotation for a slightly lower output, that is fine, and you're allowed to do that. But I don't understand what all this fuss about design intent is.
09/16/2012 03:28 PMPosted by Eluial
I don't see what is so sacred about the intent of the designers. Whether or not we're *supposed* to use 2 dots, right now that's what works best. Maybe in 4 weeks that won't be what works best, and we'll change things. But right now, it does. I don't see how you can say much more than that.


Moonkins should be all too familiar with this since it happened -this- expansion with Solar Cleave and Shooting Stars. We weren't meant to camp an eclipse but low and behold.
09/06/2012 03:21 PMPosted by Lissanna
Sticky swaps for the druid forum are relatively trivial since all it takes is 2 seconds for me to shoot off an e-mail. :P

Hey, Liss, I think it's time to go ahead and send that email now. lol
09/17/2012 05:01 PMPosted by Phaydre
Hey, Liss, I think it's time to go ahead and send that email now. lol

hah, yeah, I've been trying to get down to it and get stuff done. There's still quite a bit more to go though. I also have the email address so it's no big deal. If it gets stickied before then, cool. If not, I'll just shoot an email in a week or so (or when it's closer to done).

Also, please point out any typos or silly things you find (anyone). I've been finding so many when I reread, I'm sure there are more I'm missing.

edit: oh! I also need a moonkin spotlight (considering graylo's gear list once he gets that up, but am very open to suggestions) and I'm kind of scratching my head on advanced rotation tips. Probably because I'm braindead from thinking about this stuff kind of non-stop lately.
09/17/2012 06:26 PMPosted by Eluial
I'm kind of scratching my head on advanced rotation tips. Probably because I'm braindead from thinking about this stuff kind of non-stop lately.

Find a WOL of a top Moonkin and crawl by searching for:
Starfire, Starsurge, Wrath, Eclipse (Lunar), Eclipse (Solar), Lunar Shower, Starfall, Shooting Stars, Celestial Alignment, Soul of the Forest, Incarnation, Sunfire, Moonfire

Then just rewrite the cast sequencing along with corresponding buffs.

If you're really good with programming simulations (non-Math kind), you may find a way to import these WOL data sets and create a visual representation, using Wowmodelviewer as both an animation engine and image engine, thus having things like "Casting Starfire, 2.13sec" and buffs could pop up along the bottom like a buff bar so you may track those and see if the player changed a typical rotation because of a specific buff (works for both "GFTO damage" and temporary buffs). In addition, you may have DOTs tracked by this buff bar and shown by unique targets.

...You know...that's not a bad idea...a visual representation of a log crawl...

Don't know how. Don't have time. My dream, your work.

Yay.
My head just exploded. Thanks Cyous.

:P
My head just exploded. Thanks Cyous.

:P

Np. Was making my new UI look pretty. Ever tried running TellMeWhen, OmniCC, and PowerAuras in conjunction with each other? It's amazing. Just need to get ForteXorsist working properly.

Total Time: 6 hours.
Had to stop due to server shutdown.

Gotta work spell timers into the mix now.
I don't use tellmewhen, and what would you do with omniCC and powerauras? PA has its own timers. And ditch forte already and get Raven.

Also, I'm seriously considering switching to weakauras. Check this out:
http://themoonkinrepository.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6776

Plus, I can't get PA to show up when my dots have a certain amount of time LEFT on them (as opposed to elapsed time).
I'm not a fan of exporting UI's for a single reason. I have my own needs of what I want to see. Regardless of that, it's a clean UI.
I'll put in a sticky request for this one and the PvP one when I have time this week.

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