I've got it! How to build-up the next Xpac!!!

Story Forum
09/08/2012 09:56 AMPosted by Nevva
I'm sorry, but bringing a character back just because is effectively butchering a story. If Illidan and Kael'thas come back and we have to support them, the entirety of the Burning Crusade Raiding experience was for naught.


This isn't true.

In WCIII, you kill Kel'Thuzad in the first campaign. In the second Campaign, you resurrect him. Similarly, you kill Cenarius in the orc campaign. Once again, he has returned.

Bringing a character back is not always a lame rehash. If reviving a character is relevant, has strong plot support, and involves a plot twist, it can be very effective. Were Illidan to be brought back and reverted to the same role, as a hostile demon-lord... then yeah, that'd be pretty poor. But if his role in the story were to change, it would be exciting.

This is a fantasy game. Resurrection happens. It just has to be handled correctly. If it is cheesy and lacks plot support, and the character doesn't do much, then I certainly agree: Why even bring them back? But if the character is relevant to the storyline and makes an impact... then it'll lead to a better story.


Kel'Thuzad dies and comes back as a Lich. Cenarius' comeback was actually a bad decision, because it took away the significance of his death.

And the point I'm trying to make is - It's rare to see a Resurrection handled correctly. If Illidan was to be brought back, we would have to see reasoning, we would have to see character growth, we would have to see drawback of his comeback... And I'm sorry, but I'm not inclined to believe Blizzard could pull this. What we would see is probably some cheesy line about "Black Temple was merely a setback" and then start working under the guy we gave our blood to kill during BC.

People don't want Illidan back because of a good storytelling. Good storytelling takes a backseat to bringing a popular brooding misunderstood anti-hero back.
There's not really a way Illidan could go back what he was in WC3. Unless Tichondrius possessed Illidan when Illidan killed him and wasn't able to take control over Illidan's body until after he lost to Arthas.

Then again that would be pretty cheesy.
I am a HUGE Kael'Thas fan, and would love him brought back. Your idea also makes a bit of sense too.

Illidan will be brought back, as others have said, guranteed. Plus hey, who doesn't want a badass demon hunter back?

Arthas, while yes a huge Warcraft charachter we all know, love, and farmed, just simply can't be brought back. Nobody could ever forgive him, and I just don't see this possibly happening, even though I'm an Arthas fan myself.

Garrosh can burn in hell. Nuff' said.
There's not really a way Illidan could go back what he was in WC3. Unless Tichondrius possessed Illidan when Illidan killed him and wasn't able to take control over Illidan's body until after he lost to Arthas.

Then again that would be pretty cheesy.


Not necessarily; Illidan consumed the Skull of Gul'dan to take on Demonic powers, right? Well, as we've seen time and time again, Fel-corruption does more than simply change one's appearance; it actually influences their personality. As such, Illidan might really have been driven to madness, both by his defeat at Arthas' hands, and the Demonic powers coursing through his veins.

Since Illidan was essentially an "artificial Demon", it stands to reason that he, too, might be resurrected "pure" of his Demonic taint. The Demonic influence may have sent his spirit to the Twisting Nether, but the Legion could have chosen to strip him of his powers, and subsequently his corruption, when they chose to resurrect him.

Anyways, as far as "Building new characters", i agree it's a great idea. However, the simple truth is that it's pretty rare to actually build a strong personality that will resonate with players. Wrathion is perhaps the only World of Warcraft-born character to have accomplished that, and look how long it too them to even develop him!

As well, even though bringing back fan-favorites isn't necessarily good traditional writing, it's also important to remember that this is a video-game; the same rules don't really apply. The thing you have to account for is that we, players, feel like we're part of the Story, and that we've been here since the start. When you introduce brand-new characters, you have to be extremely careful that they don't just "swoop in and steal all the glory", lest fans will wind up taking offense to the character (look no further than Med'an and Varian Wrynn).

Furthermore, if we're seriously going to be tackling the Burning Legion's true power, then Blizzard really needs to pull out all the stops to ensure that it feels "big". Especially since most people seem to have the impression "Well, we whooped their asses last time in Burning Crusade, how bad could they be?". My figuring is, by bringing back as many of the most notable characters from the Lore as you can, it really escalates the tension. It removes those thoughts of "Well, if X character or Y character were here, we'd wipe the floor with the Legion".
There's not really a way Illidan could go back what he was in WC3. Unless Tichondrius possessed Illidan when Illidan killed him and wasn't able to take control over Illidan's body until after he lost to Arthas.

Then again that would be pretty cheesy.


Mmm, I don't know about that. Illidan very clearly went crazy because of his loss to Arthas at the Frozen Throne - That seems like something that could be fixed fairly easily.

To the OP - Everything is great but Arthas. It doesn't matter if people think he's the "face of Warcraft", he's a character that needs to stay dead, mainly because of how well-done and final it all seemed.

Besides, if he does come back, it'll probably just be something like he won the mental battle with Bolvar and is now biding his time until he can strike against us.
Part 2: The Return of the Sun King

Anyone else find it strange that Kael'thas was so friendly in Warcraft III, and yet so despicably evil in The Burning Crusade? Well, buckle up, because I have a theory that is going to rock your world, and it's actually surprisingly viable.

Going back in time a bit, to the point Kael'thas first returns to Outland, having been bested by Arthas. Khadgar beckons Kael'thas to a private meeting. Khadgar, through his dealings with the Naaru, has learned that deep in the heart of the Burning Legion, on the planet Argus, there is a Beacon of Light that can be felt throughout the cosmos. Khadgar believes that this is Turalyon.

Kael'thas may have abandoned the Alliance by this point, but he still views Turalyon as a Hero. Moreover, he would have an even greater respect for Alleria Windrunning, and considering their fates would be intertwined, Kael'thas is eager to hear how he can help.

Khadgar explains that traveling to Argus would be a fool's errand. There is only one way he would be able to journey there alive; infiltrating the Legion's ranks. Distraught, he explains that Kael'thas must prove himself power-hungry and stark-raving-mad, and there is but one course of action; he must commit treason towards Illidan and Akama's people, and take Tempest Keep by force, slaughtering anyone who crosses his path, innocent or otherwise.

He cannot, however, let on his true intentions, not even to his own people. From this point, we all know what happens. He attempts to take Tempest Keep by force, but his loses the Exodar; without it, Tempest Keep is unable to complete the journey to Argus. He is subsequently defeated.

Faced with almost certain death, he jams a Fel-infused crystal into his chest (which can plainly be seen in Magister's Terrace). Partly out of desperation, partly out of the corrupting taking place in his heart, he does the only thing he can think of; he tries to summon Kil'jaedan to Azeroth, in the hopes that the portal will allow him to travel to Argus to rescue the Heroes of the Second War.

However, the corruption takes hold over him, completely and utterly transforming him into a shadow of his former self. Like the Shadowsword Elves in Sunwell Plateau, he has succumbed to the Fel-corruption, becoming a Demon himself. He is thwarted once again, this time his head is claimed as a trophy of the kill.

And yet, the corruption has run deep, and his spirit goes not into the afterlife, but instead to the Twisting Nether. The Burning Legion, unaware of his original intentions, and impressed by his ability to almost give Kil'jaedan the opportunity he needed to invade Azeroth, quickly resurrects him, and makes him a high-ranking member of the Legion.

Unlike Illidan, however, his Fel-corruption was caused purely by the crystal jammed into his chest, which is now gone. Kael'thas can now see clearly, and with the lingering presence of Fel-magic quickly dissipating, it becomes clear that it's only a matter of time before Kael'thas is exposed to the Legion.
This strikes me as an extremely overly-complicated explanation, when a much, much simpler (and probably more accurate) one is that it was simply a case of "the ends justify the means" in which, faced with a hopeless situation and Illidan's empty promises, he came to believe that siding with the Burning Legion was the only way to truly save Quel'Thalas (that and some very convincing words from Kil'jaeden, who isn't called "the deceiver" for nothing).

As to the crystal in his chest, we already know where it came from - Priestess Delrissa put it in his chest to revive him after we beat him half to death in Tempest Keep.
Veg, I think you meant Kael, not Illidan.

Kael's empty promises, he came to believe that siding with the Burning Legion was the only way to truly save Quel'Thalas (that and some very convincing words from Kil'jaeden, who isn't called "the deceiver" for nothing).

As to the crystal in his chest, we already know where it came from - Priestess Delrissa put it in his chest to revive him after we beat him half to death in Tempest Keep.


fixed

Edit: Also, I just want to say that I have to agree with what others have said, Arthas and Garrosh are pushing it a little. At least for Illidan and Kael, it would bring some interesting story to the night elves and blood elves respectively. It would also be interesting to see what happens with Illidan, Malfurion, Tyrande, Maeiv, and the Warden, and with Kael, Lor'themar, and Jaina.
Read through it and this just seems like a huge over use of resurrection. Resurrection is fine but bringing back pretty much every main villain is a disturbing use of it.

The other problem is that it does not let other characters grow. While there is a huge fanbase for those W3 characters, people hug onto them too tight. There is no need for bringing back so many characters, they've had their spotlight and their time is done. There are new characters to be made and built up as expansions progress. Also more importantly, characters that already exist that can be villains such as Magatha and Azshara.
I think the only villian from TBC we should be seeing again is Kil'jaeden, since we didn't kill him, only pushed him out of Azeroth.

I do not want to see Illidan, or Kael'thas again. Illidan was in Cata, for a dungeon. You saw your "misinterpreted" hero. Let him stay dead and move along.
Weird double post is weird.
I say 6.0 should involve a flying saucer crash in Durotar and an Orcish coverup, with players turning conspiracy theorists trying to get to the truth!!!
Veg, I think you meant Kael, not Illidan.

Kael's empty promises, he came to believe that siding with the Burning Legion was the only way to truly save Quel'Thalas (that and some very convincing words from Kil'jaeden, who isn't called "the deceiver" for nothing).

As to the crystal in his chest, we already know where it came from - Priestess Delrissa put it in his chest to revive him after we beat him half to death in Tempest Keep.


fixed
No, I meant Illidan. Kael'thas didn't make any empty promises to himself, whereas Illidan's promises of a magic-filled paradise never materialized.
Hmm, very interesting seeing everyone's thoughts on the matter. Yeah, it sounds pretty unanimous that nobody is crazy about seeing Garrosh again after this expansion. Seems the consensus on Arthas is, if he even *DID* return, it needs to be much, much further down the road, if at all.

Surprised to see everyone's so on-board for Illidan's return, but I'm obviously really excited about the idea, too. Personally, I'd like to see Shandris Feathermoon brought to the forefront, and, with the return of Illidan, maybe they could make the Night Elves feel truly respectable again.
I can see Illidan coming back. There is a precedent for it since he is half demon and there seems to be some support of it by the player base.

I'd rather just see the story of Kael'thas' downward spiral into depravity expanded upon in game or in a book so it isn't quite so jarring, even if it is kind of is retroactive.

Arthas I would like to see in the story again. Not so much as a resurrected and redeemed character but a spirit from beyond the grave that acts to help or harm the player as the story progresses.

I have kind of mixed feelings on Garrosh. I like what his character could have been and I'm not exactly sure if I hate what his character is. I kind of want to see him hold on to his position of Warchief, pushing back his contenders, and the expansion ending with everyone wondering what he's going to do next. From here he could either see the error of his ways as enemies fall upon him from all sides or continue with his warmongering. I for one think that the story pushing war at all costs is reaching its limits though.

As for Turalyon and Alleria; I would like to see them for Alliance although the whole thing about him being chained above Kil'Jaeden seems a bit of rehashed ICC to me.
So your build up is to just bring back all the old characters?

My apologies, but
/yaaaaawn

Cliche "I'm not really dead" comic book moments shouldn't be used often and WoW has used them a LOT. They're dead, get over it. We don't need Warcraft III the MMO forever.

I'd rather see the next expansion continue to plant seeds for the Burning Legion and possibly Argus, but focus on the naga. Build up the whole expansion towards a final patch to take down Azshara only to have her manipulate us into a situation where we actually need to help her defeat N'Zoth, but by doing so we set Azshara and the naga free to their own ends. Give us a pyrrhic victory for the expansion.

Then let's deal with the Legion in the expansion with level cap 100 before we come back to Azshara again later.

NOTE, however, that Pandaria was around 10,000 years ago and I expect Illidan to make a quest cameo somehow, some way. He's been in every expansion so far since fans won't let go of him.
So your build up is to just bring back all the old characters?

My apologies, but
/yaaaaawn

Cliche "I'm not really dead" comic book moments shouldn't be used often and WoW has used them a LOT. They're dead, get over it. We don't need Warcraft III the MMO forever.

I'd rather see the next expansion continue to plant seeds for the Burning Legion and possibly Argus, but focus on the naga. Build up the whole expansion towards a final patch to take down Azshara only to have her manipulate us into a situation where we actually need to help her defeat N'Zoth, but by doing so we set Azshara and the naga free to their own ends. Give us a pyrrhic victory for the expansion.

Then let's deal with the Legion in the expansion with level cap 100 before we come back to Azshara again later.

NOTE, however, that Pandaria was around 10,000 years ago and I expect Illidan to make a quest cameo somehow, some way. He's been in every expansion so far since fans won't let go of him.


Well, in the case of Illidan, there's actually a *lot* of evidence suggesting he's going to return in the future; I would bet money on it. Not saying it's good or bad, just that it's looking more and more certain. I'd be surprised if he makes a cameo in this Expansion, but I'll bet he returns in a following one.

As for Azshara, she's certainly not a prominent enough character to justify having an entire expansion revolving around her. She's certainly no cliff-note character, though; perhaps she will be responsible for opening up a portal directly to Argus?

In truth, while I'm about 95% sure the next expansion will revolve around the Burning Legion, I'm not nearly as certain about what to actual expect, in terms of locales. My knee-jerk reaction is that we'll go to Argus, and then in the Expansion after that, we'll visit some other world; perhaps the Titan's home-world, or maybe even where Sargeras is imprisoned. It's entirely possible, though, that Argus could be the Level-100 destination, with Outland getting expanded for the immediate Expansion (or even some other planet, I suppose).

As far the idea of resurrecting past characters, I maybe went a little overboard with it. I'm almost positive Illidan will return, though, and I suspect Arthas will as well, at least by the time World of Warcraft reaches Sargeras (which, who knows how many years *that* will take). I definitely don't foresee Arthas returning until kind of "the final battle" (since I don't foresee being able to defeat Sargeras with only characters we have now), but trying to roll him into the same time we see Illidan was probably a bit much.

As far as Kael'thas goes, like I said, I just feel like it addressed two issues; firstly, he should have never been a villain to begin with (not because I like him, but because there was just no reason for him to betray the Horde so quickly), and the Blood Elves are ultimately a non-existent force because of his departure. Hell, they constantly drone-on about Sylvanas pretty much taking control of the Blood Elves; even if it's not Kael'thas, there needs to be some kind of leader among the Blood Elves that demands respect from the Horde proper.
09/09/2012 07:37 PMPosted by Maldazzar
As for Azshara, she's certainly not a prominent enough character to justify having an entire expansion revolving around her.
What, the leader of the naga, last queen of the night elves, one of the most powerful individuals on Azeroth, and perhaps the person most responsible for the War of the Ancients? She's absolutely getting her own expansion.

...not because I like [Kael'thas], but because there was just no reason for him to betray the Horde so quickly...
Kael'thas never betrayed the Horde, because he was never part of the Horde. The only contact he's had with Quel'Thalas since Illidan's defeat at Icecrown was sending M'uru back. Joining the Horde was all on Lor'themar, and Kael'thas wasn't involved.

...And the Blood Elves are ultimately a non-existent force because of his departure.
That's not because of Kael'thas.

Hell, they constantly drone-on about Sylvanas pretty much taking control of the Blood Elves; even if it's not Kael'thas, there needs to be some kind of leader among the Blood Elves that demands respect from the Horde proper.
Yeah, but coming up with a convoluted explanation for why Kael'thas is back and totally not evil now because he was actually just a double agent who went too far isn't the way to fix this. Making Lor'themar actually DO STUFF is the way to fix this.
09/09/2012 07:55 PMPosted by Vegdrasil
As for Azshara, she's certainly not a prominent enough character to justify having an entire expansion revolving around her.
What, the leader of the naga, last queen of the night elves, one of the most powerful individuals on Azeroth, and perhaps the person most responsible for the War of the Ancients? She's absolutely getting her own expansion.

...not because I like [Kael'thas], but because there was just no reason for him to betray the Horde so quickly...
Kael'thas never betrayed the Horde, because he was never part of the Horde. The only contact he's had with Quel'Thalas since Illidan's defeat at Icecrown was sending M'uru back. Joining the Horde was all on Lor'themar, and Kael'thas wasn't involved.

...And the Blood Elves are ultimately a non-existent force because of his departure.
That's not because of Kael'thas.

Hell, they constantly drone-on about Sylvanas pretty much taking control of the Blood Elves; even if it's not Kael'thas, there needs to be some kind of leader among the Blood Elves that demands respect from the Horde proper.
Yeah, but coming up with a convoluted explanation for why Kael'thas is back and totally not evil now because he was actually just a double agent who went too far isn't the way to fix this. Making Lor'themar actually DO STUFF is the way to fix this.


09/09/2012 07:55 PMPosted by Vegdrasil
As for Azshara, she's certainly not a prominent enough character to justify having an entire expansion revolving around her.
What, the leader of the naga, last queen of the night elves, one of the most powerful individuals on Azeroth, and perhaps the person most responsible for the War of the Ancients? She's absolutely getting her own expansion.

...not because I like [Kael'thas], but because there was just no reason for him to betray the Horde so quickly...
Kael'thas never betrayed the Horde, because he was never part of the Horde. The only contact he's had with Quel'Thalas since Illidan's defeat at Icecrown was sending M'uru back. Joining the Horde was all on Lor'themar, and Kael'thas wasn't involved.

...And the Blood Elves are ultimately a non-existent force because of his departure.
That's not because of Kael'thas.

Hell, they constantly drone-on about Sylvanas pretty much taking control of the Blood Elves; even if it's not Kael'thas, there needs to be some kind of leader among the Blood Elves that demands respect from the Horde proper.
Yeah, but coming up with a convoluted explanation for why Kael'thas is back and totally not evil now because he was actually just a double agent who went too far isn't the way to fix this. Making Lor'themar actually DO STUFF is the way to fix this.


Hmm, good point on the Kael'thas points. I was under the impression he was directly involved with the Blood Elves joining the Horde, but I suppose I never read too far into it.

I still don't see Azshara getting an entire expansion centered around her, but I'm all for her becoming a prominent character. And really, aside for my hatred for the zone Vashj'ir, I'm not opposed to the idea, either. I just don't see it happening.
09/09/2012 08:06 PMPosted by Maldazzar
Hmm, good point on the Kael'thas points. I was under the impression he was directly involved with the Blood Elves joining the Horde, but I suppose I never read too far into it.
The short (and somewhat hilariously exaggerated) version: Kael'thas shacked up with Illidan during Warcraft 3 and took off for Outland. He left behind Rommath, who told the blood elves of Quel'Thalas about how awesome Outland was and how it would be a paradise of magic and ponies and flowers and sunshine and how once they found a way to reach it, it would be their new promised land and they would rejoin their prince and be awesome again. When the Dark Portal reopened, they discovered they were pretty much at the opposite end of the world with nothing but hostile forces between them and it, ultimately leading to their joining the Horde. They then made a beeline for the Dark Portal, and discovered that Outland wasn't the paradise of magic and ponies and flowers and sunshine, and that their prince had gone and joined the Burning Legion.

While it's never directly stated WHY Kael'thas joined them, based on what we know from our interactions with him and his forces in Outland it seems likely that Kil'jaeden somehow convinced him that doing so was the best way to save Quel'Thalas. It's not until after we defeat him in Tempest Keep (an action which, I believe, he probably saw as a betrayal by his own people) that really he went "kill everyone and burn the world" crazy.
Verg, please stop correcting people and let them have their say because this subject is very much about the players, let them say what they think about bringing a character back. Also, I would like to say that I could not imagine illidian coming back to wow as a major player, even though he is or was a extremely loved character in the game. I say, wait it out and see what happens, wow is all about adventure and exploring new stuff, and I don't think you can re-explore it. :)

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum