Everything is Jaina's Fault (spoilers)

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Spoilers for Tides of War and Mists of Pandaria in this post.

I just finished Tides of War today and while I enjoyed the book it contained yet another major Jaina mistake so she'll be responsible for even more avoidable death and suffering. Let me elaborate on her past screw ups:

1 - The Culling of Stratholm

At Stratholm Arthas did what was necessary. The city had been infected and based on previous experiences with the plague it was almost certain that everyone in the city would die horribly and then turn into ravenous undead who would kill even more innocent people. Arthas understood and did one of the hardest things he ever had to do: he mercy killed his own people. And rather than support him, Jaina (and Uther) abandoned him. Arthas then had to go to Northrend alone to try and bring Mal'Ganis to justice. If he had a powerful mage with him maybe he wouldn't have been desperate enough to seek out Frostmourne. Or, at the very least, Jaina could have told him that the blade was cursed before it devoured Arthas' soul.

Everything that followed Arthas' fall was preventable:
- The destruction of Lordaeron
- The High Elven genocide
- The corruption of the Sunwell
- The creation of the Forsaken (more on this later)
- The sacking of Dalaran
- The invasion of the Burning Legion
- The Lich King's ascension
- The Northrend Campaign

Almost the entirety of the Third War and more would have never happened if Jaina hadn't turned her back on Arthas when he needed her most.

2 - Betraying Admiral Daellin Proudmoore, her own father

In the aftermath of the Third War Admiral Daelin Proudmoore sailed to Kalimdor looking for his daughter, Jaina. When he got there he found that she had shacked up with the Horde. The same Horde who were building their power back up on this new continent. Admiral Proudmoore did the sensible thing and started fighting the Horde before they could pose a threat to Azeroth yet again. So Jaina makes another horrible decision and betrays her own father to the Horde. Admiral Proudmoore is killed and the Horde are allowed to flourish.

Every bad thing they've done since then is now on her head:
- The burning of Ashenvale
- The kidnapping, enslavement, and abuse of King Varian Wrynn
- The Wrathgate disaster
- The constant stabbing the Alliance in the back during the Northrend Campaign
- The massacre in Stone Talon
- The invasion of Gilneas
- The destruction of Southshore
- The murder of 5 blue dragons and theft of the Focusing Iris
- The destruction of Northwatch Hold
- The destruction of Theramore

The Horde is a group of bloodthirsty savages who venerate war criminals. Admiral Proudmoore understood that and set out to stop them before they threatened the world again. If Jaina hadn't betrayed them to those savages they wouldn't have been allowed to continue their reign of destruction.

3 - The Battle for Undercity

At the Battle for Undercity King Varian Wrynn, Jaina, and a group of Alliance heroes went to Undercity to bring Grand Apothecary Putress to justice. They found the result of years of Forsaken occupation of the capital of Lordaeron: experimentation and torture of the living and desecration of Varian's childhood home. After Putress was dealt with Varian set to cleansing the city of the Forsaken and confronts Thrall and Sylvannas. Varian says:

"I was away for too long. My absence cost us the lives of some of our greatest heroes. Trash like you and this evil witch were allowed to roam free -- unchecked. The time has come to make things right. To disband your treacherous kingdom of murderers and thieves. Putress was the first strike. Many more will come."

And Varian was right, see example 2 above for a list of atrocities the Horde has committed since that confrontation in Undercity. But rather than help Varian reclaim Lordaeron for he living, Jaina teleports him and the Alliance forces back to Stormwind. So now not only is Jaina responsible for the creation of the Forsaken (see example 1 above) but now she had a chance to redeem herself and help destroy them and she makes the wrong decision yet again. So every evil thing the Forsaken have done is now doubly Jaina's fault.

Finally we come to Tides of War. The Horde destroy Theramore which, as previously established, wouldn't have happened if Jaina hadn't sold out her own father. Jaina finally realizes that her father was right and sets out to destroy Ogrimmar and break the Horde one and for all so they can't do any more damage. I was thrilled that she had finally learned to do what is necessary. Not only that but she was going to kill Thrall who either presided over Horde atrocities or put Garrosh in charge so he could do them. And then Kalecgos shows up and talks Jaina out of it. Instead of stopping the Horde once and for all she only helps save the Alliance fleet. So now every bad thing the Horde does after the destruction of Theramore is on Jaina's head, again. And from what I've heard there's a lot more for her to be guilty of from destruction in Pandaria to whatever Garrosh does that prompts the invasion of Orgimmar.

The bottom line is that Jaina is consistently responsible for massive amounts of death, misery, and destruction in Azeroth. She keeps ending up in cross road events that determine the course of history. And she keeps making the wrong choice, the cowardly choice, because she doesn't have the moral fortitude to do the right thing. How many innocent people have to die before Jaina grows up? And how are the Alliance supposed to follow such a person into war? I certainly don't trust her. It's only a matter of time before she makes another horrible decision that gets even more people killed.
By that logic, Varian's responsible for Lady Prestor coming to power and nearly crushing Stormwind, because he was stupid enough to get kidnapped. Horrible choice, amirite?
Varian didn't choose to get kidnapped. Everything I've listed Jaina chose to do. Also, Varian only got kidnapped because Jaina convinced him to go on a diplomatic mission. So this one is Jaina's fault too!
I agree. Jaina should have let Varian get slaughtered in the UC.

Problem solved, right?

You know, I'm imagining your own avatar pulling out this huge scroll of complaints in Runeweaver Square and ranting through them in the evilly-echoing squeaky gnome voice, and it's actually more fun than just punting you would be. Do continue.
Everything about Jaina becomes just so much easier to understand and rationalize if you place her in 'neutral' instead of 'Alliance'.
1. 100% correct.
2. With no Horde, several of the "Apocalypse of the Week"s would have killed all life on the planet.
3. Varian would have died. Too many horde, Thrall+Sylvanas is more powerful, desperate forsaken had 9999 barrels of blight sitting RIGHT THERE.
With no Horde, several of the "Apocalypse of the Week"s would have killed all life on the planet.

I dispute this, even ignoring the first and second wars.

-In the Third War, the Horde drank demon blood, killed Cenarius, and killed scores of Night Elves. This in no way strengthened the effort against the legion. Now, you may counter that Medivh sent them over, but I'll also point out that not everyone who he urged to leave the Eastern Kingdoms left, and he twice had to intervene to keep everyone from killing one another. The Night Elves didn't even get the memo until very late. Given these dilutive facts, it's still not clear if his plan was actually effective, or if the Night Elves simply would have repelled them anyway.

-The Horde's hostile actions in Azeroth kept soldiers out of Outland, and out of the Shattered Sun Offensive, both their own and Alliance soldiers who had to stay behind to fight them.

-Same deal with the Scourgewar, but when the Wrathgate and the Broken Front are factored in, this is even worse.

-In Cataclysm again, the offensive at Hyjal is not nearly as staffed as it should be because of Garrosh's re-commitment of the war in Ashenvale, and from other fronts globally for similar reasons. We end up having fewer troops fighting in each of these wars.

Now, my point is not to say unambiguously that the Horde is making things worse, I just would like to amend the equation from:

Alliance Troops + Horde Troops = Total Consideration to Apocalypse of the Week


Alliance Troops + Horde Troops - (Alliance Troops embroiled or killed in Alliance-Horde conflicts + Horde Troops embroiled or killed in Alliance-Horde conflicts) = Total Consideration to Apocalypse of the Week.

Given that the Horde has been starting these conflicts, we may simplify the equation to:

Alliance Troops + Horde Troops (Net of Horde's impact on world peace) = Total Consideration given to Apocalypse of the Week.
I guess it's too bad that none of that is quantifiable.

Question: Hasn't it been stated somewhere that the Horde has been necessary blah blah blah?
Question: Hasn't it been stated somewhere that the Horde has been necessary blah blah blah?

Our friendly neighbourhood omniscient time travelers have said as much on several occasions, yes.
Ah, I see.
The enemy troops at the Molten Front were even bolstered because of the Horde! The reason they had Druids of the Flame is because the Horde were burning down Night Elven towns, killing their civilians, and the Night Elven leadership did nothing about it! Malfurian even welcomed the Horde aggressors into Hyjal with open arms. He's almost as bad as Jaina!
I guess it's too bad that none of that is quantifiable.

Question: Hasn't it been stated somewhere that the Horde has been necessary blah blah blah?

It is sad, but the change in equation needs to be noted.

As for the omniscient time travelers, I am perfectly willing to admit that the Horde of the first and second wars prevented the Humans from obliterating one another in civil wars, but if I were to lump their accomplishments in with the current horde, then I must lump in their atrocities as well. This reaches back to that entity principle problem that we were discussing in a previous thread. So, if you wish to make this argument, then the we may add the casualties of the first and second wars, the draenic genocide, and a good portion of the casualties inflicted by the scourge (considering who the Lich King was and how the scourge got started) to that contra-asset account.
09/12/2012 02:59 PMPosted by Kyalin
but if I were to lump their accomplishments in with the current horde

We aren't doing so.

We're saying that the closest thing we have to word of god repeatedly says the Horde is required for the continued existence of Azeroth.

The Bronze pointed it out. Cenarius pointed it out. Yadda yadda.

It is canonical fact that the Alliance sans Horde would not be able to protect the planet.
The Bronze pointed it out. Cenarius pointed it out. Yadda yadda

I'm not sure where you get Cenarius's opinion that they were necessary. All I got from the Ask Cdev answer was that he saw the Orcs in a new light, not that they were absolutely necessary for the defense of the planet. So I am going to have to ask for more confirmation on your take on Cenarius's opinion.

As I also mentioned before, the Bronze argument is that without the Horde screaming through the dark portal, the human kingdoms would have eventually waged war on themselves. All I am saying is that if you are going to count this accomplishment, then you must also count what they took away to get a sense of what the net accomplishment was. Then, in order to attribute that to the current horde, you must merge the Old Horde and the New Horde as a single entity.

Also, please expand on "Yadda yadda".

(Pretty sure I'm out of edits, sorry about the amazing inflating post.)
This discussion is getting off topic here. The Horde are a villainous group of mass murderers, this cannot be argued. Maybe the Tauren and Blood Elves can be reasoned with but the rest must be destroyed for the safety of Azeroth regardless of what crazy bronze dragons and Horde apologists have to say. What's really important is what will be done about Jaina. How many people have to die before this patricidal one-woman disaster nexus is dealt with? At the very least she should be stripped of all leadership privileges and exiled for her crimes. I'm willing to entertain charges of treason as well since execution is the only way to be sure she doesn't have another chance to endanger the Alliance and the world. Although the execution needs to be really thorough, like burning the body thorough, so she doesn't come back as a lich or something because that would only make her stronger.
09/13/2012 06:38 AMPosted by Seral
The Horde are a villainous group of mass murderers, this cannot be argued.

Have you even looked at the story forums before this topic? There's no such thing as anything that can't be argued. There have been those who've advocated for Malygos.
If she was a robot with no human emotions, you might be right.
It is long established that jains is the true villian and the strongest one at that.
Did u not witness how she toyed with the lich king in halls of reflection, meleeing him and wear him out so much?

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