Incarnation + Celestial Alignment

Druid
09/11/2012 10:52 PMPosted by Eluial
So I bet it just has to do with what they did to make it so SS and Wrath travel time don't matter to eclipse procing.


Makes sense.

As far as I can tell, when we leave an eclipse (by nuking, AC doesn't count for anything for whatever reason), we're keeping a hidden version of that eclipse. That gets removed the next time we cast a spell that generates energy, and doesn't buff that cast. So normally, after we hit 0 energy, we'd just use another starfire/wrath and it would get rid of that.

CA makes it so nothing generates energy, so we keep that buff. It's not getting removed like an eclipse at 20, 40, or whatever would be because we technically have no buff to get rid of.
AC doesn't count as a nuke for whatever reason, so we can go to the next eclipse, and spam that spell to our heart's content because it no longer generates energy. Use any of the other two, and it ends.

Bit weird, and kinda frustrating that that's how we're supposed to be playing so we've all been abusing it. Also makes me wonder if it's been balanced around.
makes CA and Incarnation stack, like alot of people seem to think

They do stack. CA + inc should be the same damage as eclipse + inc, and it is if you cast it randomly. When you bug it out like we've been doing, our mastery bonus that we usually get during CA gets applied twice (or rather, I think we never lose the original bonus, and then we gain the CA bonus).

As far as I can tell, when we leave an eclipse (by nuking, AC doesn't count for anything for whatever reason), we're keeping a hidden version of that eclipse. That gets removed the next time we cast a spell that generates energy, and doesn't buff that cast. So normally, after we hit 0 energy, we'd just use another starfire/wrath and it would get rid of that.

CA makes it so nothing generates energy, so we keep that buff. It's not getting removed like an eclipse at 20, 40, or whatever would be because we technically have no buff to get rid of.
AC doesn't count as a nuke for whatever reason, so we can go to the next eclipse, and spam that spell to our heart's content because it no longer generates energy. Use any of the other two, and it ends.

Yeah, seems about right.

09/11/2012 10:59 PMPosted by Ahanss
Bit weird, and kinda frustrating that that's how we're supposed to be playing so we've all been abusing it. Also makes me wonder if it's been balanced around.

This is my worry. GC kept hinting that our sim numbers were very off from their internal numbers. Usually that means something is wrong in the sim and debugging is necessary. I wonder if this time maybe something was wrong in their internal testing. I mean, I don't think anyone not at blizz really knows how they do their internal tests, but I wouldn't be surprised if it uses the game engine to run in-game sims. If it did that, it would have this bug built in, where as something like simulation craft would not.

edit: it's getting late and words are hard!
They do stack. CA + inc should be the same damage as CA + eclipse, and it is if you cast it randomly. When you bug it out like we've been doing, our mastery bonus that we usually get during CA gets applied twice (or rather, I think we never lose the original bonus, and then we gain the CA bonus).


Yeah that was what I meant. Meant to say 'benefit from the double dipping' when i said to have them both 'stack'
09/11/2012 11:06 PMPosted by Velaniz
Yeah that was what I meant. Meant to say 'benefit from the double dipping' when i said to have them both 'stack'

Roger that. Like I said above, it's getting late and words are hard. ;)
As far as I can tell, when we leave an eclipse (by nuking, AC doesn't count for anything for whatever reason), we're keeping a hidden version of that eclipse. That gets removed the next time we cast a spell that generates energy, and doesn't buff that cast. So normally, after we hit 0 energy, we'd just use another starfire/wrath and it would get rid of that.

CA makes it so nothing generates energy, so we keep that buff. It's not getting removed like an eclipse at 20, 40, or whatever would be because we technically have no buff to get rid of.AC doesn't count as a nuke for whatever reason, so we can go to the next eclipse, and spam that spell to our heart's content because it no longer generates energy. Use any of the other two, and it ends.


Yeah, good breakdown of everything we've gleaned of this bug so far. Whether it's balanced around would depend a great deal on whether the same thing exists on beta currently at 90, and I have a strong suspicion it does.

09/11/2012 11:05 PMPosted by Eluial
This is my worry. GC kept hinting that our sim numbers were very off from their internal numbers. Usually that means something is wrong in the sim and debugging is necessary. I wonder if this time maybe something was wrong in their internal testing. I mean, I don't think anyone not at blizz really knows how they do their internal tests, but I wouldn't be surprised if it uses the game engine to run in-game sims. If it did that, it would have this bug built in, where as something like simulation craft would not.


Score 1 to the community huh. But if that's the case, then hopefully the bug will be tuned to become part of our actual gameplay. Maybe they could fix it so the hidden eclipse doesn't only exist at the end of eclipses.
Incarnation (eclipsed)
Your Starfire hit Training Dummy 1 Arcane. (31961 Overkill)
Your Starfire hit Training Dummy 1 Arcane. (33032 Overkill)
Your Starfire hit Training Dummy 1 Arcane. (32203 Overkill)
Your Starfire hit Training Dummy 1 Arcane. (32817 Overkill)
Your Starfire hit Training Dummy 1 Arcane. (33393 Overkill)
Your Starfire hit Training Dummy 1 Arcane. (33141 Overkill)

CA + Incarnation
Your Starfire hit Training Dummy 1 Arcane. (32039 Overkill)
Your Starfire hit Training Dummy 1 Arcane. (32413 Overkill)
Your Starfire hit Training Dummy 1 Arcane. (32384 Overkill)
Your Starfire hit Training Dummy 1 Arcane. (32979 Overkill)
Your Starfire hit Training Dummy 1 Arcane. (32251 Overkill)


If i use lunar eclipse + Incarnation i would be doing about the same amount of dmg that you where doing with CA + Incarnation. The only dmg difference is like 1k. My point is that i would rather use them @ different times. Example : Dalaran Arena (Behind the gates i get into Lunar eclipse, game starts starfall + Incarnation i am pumping dmg about the same dmg CA + Incarnation will be doing according to the info above. After Incarnation is over or almost over i use CA and go for the kill or put the enemy behind. I understand using CA applies both moonfire and sunfire but i would rather use it for more pressure afterwards. Like Incarnation itself drops kids low followed by CA really has them !@#$ them pants.

>>Thanks for the info btw but i will continue to mess around with both spells<< ( I find myself doing more dmg using them @ separate times after 40 Wargames)
>>Thanks for the info btw but i will continue to mess around with both spells<< ( I find myself doing more dmg using them @ separate times after 40 Wargames)

I think you'll find that their PvE and PvP uses differ a bit. In PvE the strategy is to layer CDs to get the most out of them as possible. In PvP burst is definitely good, but it's more important to be able to respond to the situation at hand. CA then becomes an on-demand eclipse -- something you can use when you're not in eclipse but you really need to be NOW -- where as incarnation is your big bursty CD.
Bear in mind that this 'hidden eclipse' is

1) Activated when you cast a nuke that takes you out of eclipse
2) Cancelled when you cast a nuke once out of eclipse. Nukes cast under the effect of CA don't cancel it. Which means CA right after leaving an eclipse gives you 15 seconds of 'double-dipped' nukes. The only nukes that get double dipped are the ones that benefitted from your most recent eclipse, i.e. if you just left lunar, starfire and starsurge will be buffed

In pvp, you could astral communion to 25 solar energy, cast 2 wraths, and voila, you have it activated. It doesn't get cancelled by dots, so now you can pop CA+Inc, tab dot everything, and enjoy the 100k starsurge crits on full cata geared players.

You can also tap into it for many instances in pve, particularly tendons on heroic spine. I plan to try it out later and see how things go.
Fooled around on heroic Spine earlier. Did 5.82 million damage on tendons with the bug, with the next highest being the rogue at 3.62. Did 2.7 million of that damage on the very first tendon (had a pot up as well as stormlash totem from the shaman)

AND i got gripped on the last tendon towards the end, where lust was popped too, and my cds were down for 2nd tendon. Lawl.
nvm read something wrong
Bit of a bump, but I was playing around with this today, and it doesn't seem like the bug's in place anymore. AC is not letting me cast eclipsed spells in the wrong eclipse, and CA is not letting me double-dip on the eclipse bonus when used at the end of eclipse.

If it's fixed, that's some pretty fast turnaround :).

Eclipse should no longer provide bonus damage after it fades.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/7207170
Yeah, no more 207k starsurges on dummies =( Also seeing substantially less burst, and ~1.2k less dummy dps.
Bear in mind that this 'hidden eclipse' is

1) Activated when you cast a nuke that takes you out of eclipse
2) Cancelled when you cast a nuke once out of eclipse. Nukes cast under the effect of CA don't cancel it. Which means CA right after leaving an eclipse gives you 15 seconds of 'double-dipped' nukes. The only nukes that get double dipped are the ones that benefitted from your most recent eclipse, i.e. if you just left lunar, starfire and starsurge will be buffed

In pvp, you could astral communion to 25 solar energy, cast 2 wraths, and voila, you have it activated. It doesn't get cancelled by dots, so now you can pop CA+Inc, tab dot everything, and enjoy the 100k starsurge crits on full cata geared players.

You can also tap into it for many instances in pve, particularly tendons on heroic spine. I plan to try it out later and see how things go.

PvP Works a lil different than PvE, i will spend that extra global to put up moonfire or sunfire on ea target and save Celestial Alignment and use it after incarnation is over or almost over. If you look above it berly did any difference using both cds together. ( 1k dmg difference)
they dont stack
09/16/2012 01:35 PMPosted by Drbumkin
they dont stack

blabnflaskfblsebflabflasbfas

CELESTIAL ALIGNMENT AND INCARNATION BONUSES DO STACK!

I don't know how many more times in how many different ways this can be said. They stack. Their bonuses both apply to your damage. You get mastery*1.25*damage when they're both active. CA and Incarnation BOTH BLOODY STACK TOGETHER!
I've noticed that Celestial Alignment only brings you to any eclipse but the bonus damage was not added into the spells. Is this intended or is this a bug?
We really need another look on the balance sheet, I find it highly unlikely that the formulation (wrathcalcs) and the simulation (simcraft) are both incorrect when they are within 1% of each other. We were probably balanced around this stupid glitch and now that it's gone no one has cared to adjust us to make up for the 4-5k dps lost.
09/17/2012 08:45 AMPosted by Thegodofdps
We were probably balanced around this stupid glitch and now that it's gone no one has cared to adjust us to make up for the 4-5k dps lost.

Yep, agreed. I tried to make that point in the post where I pointed out the bug, in the class balance thread on the beta forums. Since we got no response beyond the bullet point in the hotfix notes, I don't know if they're looking into it or not.

Maybe someone on twitter could bring it up? The devs seem to be really active there, lately. (And I really can't bring myself to make an account.)
Thegodofdmg doesn't know much about moonkin; he just plays with good people. He didn't know to IS before MF. ;\

09/16/2012 01:35 PMPosted by Drbumkin
they dont stack


Oh hey look another rank 1 pvper with no idea how the class works lol
Incarnation (eclipsed)
Your Starfire hit Training Dummy 1 Arcane. (31961 Overkill)
Your Starfire hit Training Dummy 1 Arcane. (33032 Overkill)
Your Starfire hit Training Dummy 1 Arcane. (32203 Overkill)
Your Starfire hit Training Dummy 1 Arcane. (32817 Overkill)
Your Starfire hit Training Dummy 1 Arcane. (33393 Overkill)
Your Starfire hit Training Dummy 1 Arcane. (33141 Overkill)

CA + Incarnation
Your Starfire hit Training Dummy 1 Arcane. (32039 Overkill)
Your Starfire hit Training Dummy 1 Arcane. (32413 Overkill)
Your Starfire hit Training Dummy 1 Arcane. (32384 Overkill)
Your Starfire hit Training Dummy 1 Arcane. (32979 Overkill)
Your Starfire hit Training Dummy 1 Arcane. (32251 Overkill)

See the dmg difference? IT IS ABOUT THE SAME ....................................................
I find myself pumping more dmg using my cd's separate . Not sure what but i would love to read this from a GM lol

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