What should happen to the Horde after MOP pt2

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Continuing this discussion in a new thread because it was getting interesting.

I want you guys to keep in mind that it would be impossible for the Horde to be flat out destroyed completely. It would also be unreasonable to ask that the Horde suffer some defeat that is so crushing that it more or less makes it a total loss of the war. As Alliance, you wouldn't want your faction to lose to the Horde either (Not that a loss scenario for the Horde is worse than it would be for Alliance).

That being said, Horde should definitely see a defeat that humbles them in a way that they don't try to pick on the Alliance anymore. Orgrimmar should definitely be half-ruined. Before Kellick and Bullcowsby come in here and say that is unreasonable, I'm not saying Ogrimmar should be flat out destroyed, I'm saying that a good portion of its buildings should be collapsed and burning while its gates bear the marks of artillery.

Considering Blizzard will be doing a lot of work on phasing and updating the game world, I think this will be a good thing. Like for the Alliance Blizzard decided to completely obliterate the park to make it feel more personal so we'd want to go after Deathwing. Parts of Orgrimmar still bearing the scars of the war should be a powerful reminder of what, as Chen would put it, you are fighting for (And give you a taste of something of yours being ruined for years).

It would not reduce functionality, players could still come to the hub and get everything they need and there wouldn't be Alliance guards on every corner reminding you how much you messed up by picking the red team. It would be a reminder to those Horde players that thought Garrosh was right, were actually wrong.

That's a fair compromise, right?
That sounds reasonably fair as an aftermath for what happens to Org. I think Org should show the effects of the siege for some time. The capital shouldn't come out of it completely rebuilt and shiny and new.

You run into trouble of how to get there though. I realize that the biggest limitation that someone pointed out is that this is a MMO, so one side can't be crushed/defeated totally.Which is a part of the frustration since that severely limits what can be done in a realistic manner. The Horde has to come out of it with a strong and viable military or it imbalances the factions too much. Bit that in of itself stretches the suspension of belief to the breaking point when you consider how hot and hard this war was being fought and how much damage the Alliance took (The Alliance has been hammered -hard-). Vengeance, a hard style of justice and a desire to see this fighting ended on terms that ensure that the Alliance doesn't have to do it again in ten years should be foremost in the Alliances eyes.

But the needs of game play trump that and force unrealistic conditions on how the war can end. The basics are, the Horde, the orcs and Forsaken especially need to be humbled. They have to have a noticeable and decisive defeat that makes them rethink their current strategy and decisions over the last year or so. Otherwise this cycle will happen again.

The orcs need to be kicked out of all of the top leadership positions too. There has to be tauren, troll and Blood elven generals, commanders and admirals as well as orc ones. (About 1/2 to 3/4 of the military leadership should be replaced with non orcs) Give the non orc races more of a say in what happens. The Warchief position definitely needs to go and the oath of the Horde changed a lot to something not so rigid and enslaving. A loss of land (Ashernvale, Gilneas and such can be phased) and some reparations, things that the Horde as a whole needs to be done and something done to Sylvanas and the Forsaken. As they are now, they will only violate any cease fire and there is little reason to not take them out next after the war in Kalimdor is ended/pauses for awhile.

Over all, it's extremely limited in how the raid can end in a satisfactory manner for the Alliance and Horde. One side is going to be unhappy no matter what and many Alliance players are afraid, based off of past Blizzard actions, that it's going to be the Alliance.
While I like the idea, It's not going to happen. See, Metzen, Kosak and the others are writing this story like a comic book series and in their goal to heat things up, they've written themselves so far into into a one track path that they can't just upend the storyline. This issue is compounded by a)they have to deal with game mechanics and b) Unlike comic books, they just can't say "retcon!" and everything gets changed magically to accommodate it. They change a lot of the world with Cata and most of that would have to be changed again to accommodate anything resembling a reasonable outcome.

So while Kosak had asked someone "What would you like happen?" the response to any answer that would involve any change would probably be "well tough luck, we're not going to do it."
Equally important as giving the Orcs physical reminders of the horrors of war is ensuring Sylvanas and the Forsaken in particular are not overlooked in terms of the terrible things they have done, which are just as bad if not worse than what Garrosh has done.

It would be a gigantic slap to the face of the Alliance playerbase if Garrosh is the only antagonist to be focused on while the Forsaken, who are equally guilty, are basically ignored and allowed to retain all they have taken without any repercussions or reperations. Doing so would send the message that the crimes perpetuated by the Horde during the war was all Garrosh's fault and effectively absolve the Forsaken and Sylvanas of any wrongdoing when they are some of the worst offenders.

SOMETHING needs to happen with the Alliance in Lordaeron that gives the Alliance some pride for once instead of being constantly steamrolled by the Forsaken clad in unbreakeable plot armor and effectively allowing them to expand unchecked and get away with murder and torture.
I really can't decide if Orgrimmar in it's current state being leveled and being rebuilt in a less warlike style for the expac after MoP, or just leaving it as is, with signs that it has been sieged and sacked, would be better for the Horde.
The lesser races of the Horde should want to stop taking a backseat to the Orcs and have more than a few ruffled feathers after being dragged into a stupid war by them.
See, I disagree with half of it being burning and crumbled because honest, Org is one of the best places for RP (On WrA) that I've seen. But eh, I think I'll just be happy if Blizzard does it and not listen to a lot of us.

There are good ideas, but the majority (Which Blizzard is majority rules minority drools) of the ideas are poor.
To address some issues from the previous thread that I didn't get a chance to before it closed, and try to make some of the more die hard Hordies understand why we propose the kind of solutions that we do and consider them reasonable,

A lot of people basically claim that the current state of Alliance questing in Cata makes up for the state of Horde questing in Vanilla. Problem is, this is comparing apples and oranges.

Alliance currently has bad story, while Horde formerly had bad gameplay.

This is a big difference. It wasn't that in Vanilla the Horde was losing in lore, questing in vanilla was actually very static and had fairly little interaction between the military forces of the two factions. The problem was that the Horde had less quests, less access to major story events, and presence in fewer zones and uglier zones. I mean for Heaven's sakes, endgame for half of Vanilla was all Blackrock Mountain and Onyxia, which was all Alliance focused and Horde players probably didn't even know WHY the hell they were killing Ony, not to mention it was a pain in the rear for Horde raids to get to blackrock mountain and with so many fights revolving around fear mechanics they had a noticeably harder time of it due to not having fear ward.

And that really sucked for the Horde and needed fixing, but none of it was the Alliance's fault, nor is it remotely the same kind of problem as the current storytelling issues we have. Conflating the two is not a reasonable argument or even one that really makes sense.

Right now, we feel like we're both getting the short end of the stick in terms of development time and attention, the Horde's original problem, AND the lore is being written so that we lose again and again. And a lot of stuff just ISN'T even. Orgrimmar gets built up....Stormwind gets damaged. The Goblins terraform a whole zone into the new HQ and questing experience with a giant gun pointing at us...the Worgen get a little tree in Darnassus and just do the NE quests in Darkshore while Forsaken players see their lore. The Horde gets their twilight highlands intro finished first...ours doesn't get finished at all. Admittedly, a lot of that has nothing to do with the Horde, it's not like you're the ones who attacked Stormwind. But it still stings, especially when it's added on top of all the actual instances where you're steamrolling us in the war.

And when we propose that the way to make it even is for us to hit you back, it gets called Factionwank or unreasonable.

Basically, there's two ways to make a game like this. Either completely even, everything one faction gets, the other faction has an exact mirror of it, which is the fairest way but extremely unrealistic and limiting from a storytelling perspective, or realistic but even in the long run, where the balance of power flows back and forth and both factions essentially take turns sticking it to each other. And what I'm saying, what a lot of Alliance players are saying, is that after an expansion of us taking a dive for you, that the Horde has benefited at the expense of Alliance players, it's our turn to benefit at the expense of Horde players, it's our turn for the Horde to take a dive for us for a while. And if Blizzard isn't gonna redo the zones, if we're not going to have a chance to get a bunch of little victories like you had over us, and it's all going to come down to siege of Org, then we should get one BIG victory to even all the little defeats out. And with the laundry list of "little defeats", a victory big enough to even them all out will be pretty damn big, and something the Horde will really feel. That's not factionwank, that's asking to do to you exactly what you've been doing to us. Factionwank is if we asked to do MORE to you than you've done to us. The only problem is sometimes, especially when you're talking about victories and defeats that are symbolic, it's hard to quantify exactly what is equal.
Ah'd be okay wit' dat, if de trolls got a capital o' dere own, mon.
Well, in a certain sense the trolls did. It's not a formal capital city, but the echo isles do get revamped into a proper starting area for trolls and the sense is given that the trolls get their home back.

Our comparable event, the gnomes retaking gnomeregan, fails. We literally have to retreat and fail to retake the city. Even though this has nothing to do with the Horde, it still gives Alliance players the impression of the Horde wins, the Alliance loses, you get something we don't.
09/15/2012 11:23 AMPosted by Dierle
Even though this has nothing to do with the Horde, it still gives Alliance players the impression of the Horde wins, the Alliance loses, you get something we don't.

The Alliance is going to attack the Horde's most iconic city and win. The Alliance's primary faction leader turned from a hot-headed jerk into an honorable, level-headed, demigod blessed pariah. The Horde got Orc Hitler. From everything I've seen, the Horde may have won battles and escalated the war in Cataclysm, but the Alliance gets the final word in Mists of Pandaria.

I'm on my phone so apologies. I did simply want to respond to your first two paragraphs by pointing out that very few, if any, legitimate posters claim what you say they claim. No one has said "it's all evened up now so shush your whining!". In fact, and this ties in to my second point (and addresses Mordstreich's reference to me in the OP), many of us 'die-hard hordies' have recognized issues with the Alluance's questing experience in Cata and have done so for the entirety of the expansion. Kellick is one of the more vocal posters in this regard and anyone who takes time to read any thread about or derailed to be about the iniquities of Alliance questing will see that many of the same posters that are 'offended' by some of these 'fair' suggestions understand why you and others have made the suggestions. Understanding why does not mean we have to agree with your suggestions.

And again, what's with the narrative about the Alliance losing 'again and again'? Having a bad quest experience does not mean you're losing. A view of the events from both sides shows that the Horde often ends up losing or having its gains reversed.
I'll go back to what I said in the last topic.

We can't take their territory because gameplay won't allow it. The Orcs, and heck, many Horde players, are very proud (some to the point of being horribly obnoxious) and they need to take a shot in the ego.

Have the Alliance stand strong when all is said and done, have the Alliance be the unquestionably strongest standing force when the battle is over, and make the Horde have to beg and plead for mercy at the hands of Varian and the rest of the Alliance present. Have the Alliance spare them and make sure they know that the Horde carries on only because the Alliance lets it be so.
TB is walled up. Org has been under assault since the start of cata. Cairne is still dead while the dwarves got a demigod watcher over them. meanwhile, we got ss and andorhal which are two isolated towns far from any central alliance power. We also had a whole tribe of trolls wiped out by the nelves before they repelled out main force.

edit; i don't think it's really as one sided as some alliance posters think it is. the biggest problem is the presentation. Not so much the actual lore.
I do agree with the assertion that lore is not a zero sum game and that actions aren't really very quantifiable. Given those two premises, why are people trying so hard to equate lore losses and gains in an attempt to show what one side needs to gain for things to be 'fair'?
09/15/2012 11:32 AMPosted by Abal
The Alliance is going to attack the Horde's most iconic city and win. The Alliance's primary faction leader turned from a hot-headed jerk into an honorable, level-headed, demigod blessed pariah. The Horde got Orc Hitler. From everything I've seen, the Horde may have won battles and escalated the war in Cataclysm, but the Alliance gets the final word in Mists of Pandaria.

'Win' is profoundly debatable. Napoleon took Moscow too. That wasn't a win. In fact, it was a disaster. It is not impossible for Blizzard to have the Alliance 'take' Orgrimmar and turn it into an unspeakable failure (they probably won't but they've shown some really sketchy decision making in the past and it's not impossible).

In fact, what we do know about the Org fight (which is liable to change five minutes from now) is that the attack on Org is closer to the capture of Moscow than, say, the capture of Berlin. We know it won't involve civilian casualties (or rather that the Alliance forces will be put under severe ROE shall we say). We can be reasonably certain that the Alliance won't actually hold it (which is a nice start for a victory). So there's not unreasonable doubt that it's going to be a 'win'.

And if I could be exceptionally cynical, we've already seen something that resembles the protocols we're being given for Orgrimmar and that's the Alliance attack on Stonard. And that's a loss.
edit: @Bullcowsby

pent up aggressions. i think a certain handful of posters had started as uber alliance fans form the start, which was a good thing. But then they started taking any hits to the alliance lore personally, only focussing on them and that turned into "crimes that needed to be paid for".

So any discussion of how to make things fair will always involve paying for interpreted slights. for them, atleast.

edit2; I see a big part of the problem is that the horde fans focus on the glories rather than the hits. this causes alot of pride and is counted as one of the slights against alliance fans. But that's not something blizz can really do anything about beyond humiliation of the fans through their lore. Which is what I see called for, alot.
Of course Org should bear some battle scars. It is being besieged, invaded and sacked after all. Personally, just make sure there are 2 auction houses, banks, inns and a place for the battlemasters, loot vendors ect and Org should still be a functioning city. Note I didn't say those buildings needed to be in same place they are now or undamaged, but for sake of resources it is likely that most of those will at least remain in their current locations.

As for the Forsaken, I'm not sure that now is a good time address them. I would prefer something involving 2 or more of the Windrunner sisters, preferably all 3, that completes Sylvanas' story arc. This expac really needs for focus on the Orcish relapse into barbarism under Garrosh. And I would like to see the Tauren and Blood Elves be prominent in the Horde rebellion since they are the races most likely to universally, or with an overwhelming majority, disapprove of an aggressive, pre-Thrall style Orcish Horde.
09/15/2012 11:32 AMPosted by Abal
The Alliance is going to attack the Horde's most iconic city and win.

...Win what exactly?

The Alliance's primary faction leader turned from a hot-headed jerk into an honorable, level-headed, demigod blessed pariah.

No one likes Varian. At best, they'll like the fact that he's wanted to attack the Horde for what they've done, but he's always talked out of it like he's wrong somehow. He's all talk and bluster, no matter what kind of bells and whistles they attach to him.

The Horde got Orc Hitler.

Garrosh was rejected by the Horde player base on account of him not being Thrall. He didn't actually need to do anything for people to not like him (although, Grom Hellscream convinently having a son to continue on his legacy is annoying enough).

From everything I've seen, the Horde may have won battles and escalated the war in Cataclysm, but the Alliance gets the final word in Mists of Pandaria.

Chances are, words spoken will be mutual. The Alliance will forgive and forget everything if only out of a sense of guilt due to what happens to the Pandaerians as a result of the war against the Horde. The Horde will offer nothing in return as per usual and pin all the blame on Garrosh, while merely paying lip service to the part they played in events. Maybe they'll stop eating pork...
One - the previous thread wasn't capped .... why make a new one?

Second - I still contend to the idea that we can use phasing in this way:

Phased Ashenvale - Have the Alliance retake all of Ashenvale - setting up a miltary line on the border of Azshara, with the Horde doing the same (Bridge is destroyed and doesn't allow passage) - This would only be done after the raid to depose Garrosh is completed.

This would allow two questing zones to be done after the phasing (one for Alliance and one for Horde) - The Alliance's ones clearing out the remaining retaken areas, regrowing the forests, resecuring southern Ashenvale, etc and the Horde's quests invovling resupplying the lines, miltary recon and rescuing anyone left behind, etc

and/or Have some Alliance guards in Orgimmar that /spit and throw rotten fruit at Horde players every now again when they visit the Valley of Honor (again, only after we depose Garrosh).

If they can do this with Theramore - they can do it with Ashenvale.

A note about the Forsaken - They've had free reign in the northern part of the Eastern Kingdoms - pretty much nothing to stop them. Yes they destroyed Southshore and have taken Andorhol - but ... the Argent Crusade/Dawn and such are still there - watching. There was never any kind of major Alliance force up there to stop them - all they've done is expand since they've returned from Northrend with a powerful force that allows them to create the numbers they've needed to expand.

Retaking Lordareon is the last step - not the first. The Allliance needs to show it can protect the land it has now by retaking Ashenvale. Contain the Forskaen, secure our lands - then if diplomatic measures are not successful - we can invade/retake Lordareon.

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