Warrior recklessness suggestion.

Warrior
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Are you truly this thick? How don't you understand that stats have different weights for different classes. Crit is a very very strong stat for us and shortening this CD without nerfing the Crit gain is far too OP. Seriously, get over it.

Dude crit is extremely good for alot of classes get over it. Shortening the cd without nerfing the skill is already being done via the t14 4 set. Please read before spouting off your rhetoric about how op it is going to be to give us something we are already getting via a 4set that basically puts our dps on par with other classes.


How don't you realize this is how they are making it balanced for PvE and for PvP at the same time? It is very similar with Colossus Smash.

And just because it is good for other classes doesn't mean it is as good as it is for us.
Fallacy: In informal logic and rhetoric, a fallacy is usually an error in reasoning often due to a misconception or a presumption.
Nope still means what i think.
You're not using it correctly from what a lot of people have tried to tell you.

Hes using logic based on the assumption that 1 crit gives you 3.17 math and also presuming that other class dont benefit from ratings as much as warrior. Until proven otherwise these are both fallacies. So no iam not using it wrong... sorry.
A logical form such as A and B is independent of any particular conjunction of meaningful propositions. Logical form alone can guarantee that given true premises, a true conclusion must follow. ****However, formal logic makes no such guarantee if any premise is false, the conclusion can be either true or false. Any formal mistake or logical fallacy similarly invalidates the deductive guarantee.***** The so-called fallacy fallacy is a failure to understand that all bets are off unless the argument is formally flawless and all premises are true.
Have you seen the other dps classes 4pc bonus? They are usually on par making dps cds shorter. I don't know if you noticed it but warrior dps is in a good spot in pve and pvp. Having a massive cd as Reck is with half the cd as it currently has baseline would only make it so that blizzard would have to nerf our sustained dps in favor of burst faces which is like turning us into melee frost mages ot what rets were last season. That means that you may end up doing the same 100k dps but you would have to hit Reck off cd which isn't coherent at all when you say ithere should be a decision in when to pop reck and not just to pop it at the beginning and the end of a fight.

They are on par making dps cds shorter but nothing as large as recks 2.5 minute decrease. I cant comment on where warrior dps is currently i havent seen accurate BIS sims nor have a played in an environment with similar geared warriors in mop. Further more if they put reck at 2.5 minute cd and let the 4set be something like skullbanner no further balance would be needed and would be much more interesting and better aligned with the power of other 4sets. A 2.5 minute cd affords you a window of up to two minutes of time to slide the cd and still get max uptime depending on boss time to live. Think sitting on reck for 30 seconds till black phase and still being able to have it up again before he dies for the third black phase.
09/18/2012 06:38 PMPosted by Prometheon
You are talking almost exclusively from a pve standpoint. I'm trying to consider both scenarios. in pvp you will never use the glyph if you run as arms (which is still better than fury for pvp). In Arms pve it's probably the same (would like some math and testing to see how it pans out). So, assuming that only fury really benefits from the glyph and only in pve, reck is still a potential doubling of your yellow damage for 75% of the scenarios (granted you will only crit the entire time when planets align). Still you will be procc'ing enrage as a beast and having tons of rage to dish out on HSs and Slams (If Arms) plus the +10% damage modifier, which is multiplicative so even stronger.

I am talking mostly pve but we can discuss pvp if you want. Think about it tho even if the 4 set bonus is THE most powerful 4set in t14 all that means is your pvp dps is going to be that much lower compared to other classes when they lose theirs and you are going to have half as many opportunities to use it to get a kill. So already as you can see your at a disadvantage due to less pvp dps because YOUR DPS WILL BE BALANCED AROUND RECK HAVING A 2.5 MINUTE CD. You can claim well it kills ppl but so do other class cooldowns and they are MUCH MUCH harder to deal with then a melee class that is so easily kiteable if you have half a brain. At some point you have to stop balancing for baddies in pve gear and just let them get recked every 2.5 minutes.
09/18/2012 06:38 PMPosted by Prometheon
You're saying that as if the rest of the classes are not getting strong 4sets. That bonus is there only to make us compete against classes already buffed by their 4pc set bonus. It is clearly not meant to be baseline.

No, iam saying that we are already getting reck on a 2.5 minute cd so its clearly not as op as you guys say in at least one aspect of the game. But, nice try if i want words to come out of my mouth i will put them there.
09/18/2012 06:38 PMPosted by Prometheon
I may agree so some point that a 5 min cd has no place in this game, but rather prefer it to be the way it is (probably at most 4 min), to see it shortened and having a lot of tweeking elsewhere to acommodate.

Your assuming we would need 'tweeking' i dont agree that we would necessarily and since its your argument the burden of proof is upon you to prove it.
How don't you realize this is how they are making it balanced for PvE and for PvP at the same time? It is very similar with Colossus Smash.

And just because it is good for other classes doesn't mean it is as good as it is for us.

I agree 100 pct with your statement about CS. I also think this is one of the biggest travesties in the history of wow as evidenced by season 11s record low 2200+ arena rep for warriors. It basically turned the model of high burst easy to kite dps into medium burst easy to kite and put warriors in the position that you would be better off replacing us in every viable comp with another class for better results.
Oh ya and the presumption that iam bad at math because i refuse to acknowledge his claim about dps/ep values when in fact there was no math even present to support it is also a fallacy. Keep trying to discredit me i can do this all day.
09/18/2012 06:38 PMPosted by Prometheon
You are talking almost exclusively from a pve standpoint. I'm trying to consider both scenarios. in pvp you will never use the glyph if you run as arms (which is still better than fury for pvp). In Arms pve it's probably the same (would like some math and testing to see how it pans out). So, assuming that only fury really benefits from the glyph and only in pve, reck is still a potential doubling of your yellow damage for 75% of the scenarios (granted you will only crit the entire time when planets align). Still you will be procc'ing enrage as a beast and having tons of rage to dish out on HSs and Slams (If Arms) plus the +10% damage modifier, which is multiplicative so even stronger.


I wouldn't say arms is better then fury, honestly they are pretty much equal. Its more so people are so used to arms being top dog that they are adamant on saying it is better, when in reality, it comes down to preference.

09/18/2012 06:38 PMPosted by Prometheon
I may agree so some point that a 5 min cd has no place in this game, but rather prefer it to be the way it is (probably at most 4 min), to see it shortened and having a lot of tweeking elsewhere to acommodate.


Like i have said multiple times in this thread, 4 min wouldnt be gamebreaking, fury has had it at 4 mins in cata and it was just fine, it wouldnt be so long that you feel like you only get to use it once in competitive arena, but not too short that that it would be super Op. Like someone else said earlier, maybe they should make the glyph instead of increase its duration by 50%, reduce its cd by 40-50%
09/19/2012 09:25 AMPosted by Ezyo
I wouldn't say arms is better then fury, honestly they are pretty much equal. Its more so people are so used to arms being top dog that they are adamant on saying it is better, when in reality, it comes down to preference.


Arms is still better for pvp but not as much as before (at least for rated). It is because ofthe fact that Arms gets more CS usage, Overpower not being able to be dodged or parried and the fact that the Taste for Blood mechanic allows us to have better timed bursts even in small windows.

09/19/2012 09:25 AMPosted by Ezyo
Like i have said multiple times in this thread, 4 min wouldnt be gamebreaking, fury has had it at 4 mins in cata and it was just fine, it wouldnt be so long that you feel like you only get to use it once in competitive arena, but not too short that that it would be super Op. Like someone else said earlier, maybe they should make the glyph instead of increase its duration by 50%, reduce its cd by 40-50%


I agree. 4 minutes probably should be the optimal cd to work properly on both pve and pvp and be able to line reck with trinkets at least.

Malkontent, I won't quote you cause it's late here and I have to sleep before going to work tomorrow but I'll comment on some things:

09/18/2012 10:04 PMPosted by Malkontent
They are on par making dps cds shorter but nothing as large as recks 2.5 minute decrease. I cant comment on where warrior dps is currently i havent seen accurate BIS sims nor have a played in an environment with similar geared warriors in mop. Further more if they put reck at 2.5 minute cd and let the 4set be something like skullbanner no further balance would be needed and would be much more interesting and better aligned with the power of other 4sets. A 2.5 minute cd affords you a window of up to two minutes of time to slide the cd and still get max uptime depending on boss time to live. Think sitting on reck for 30 seconds till black phase and still being able to have it up again before he dies for the third black phase.


09/18/2012 10:04 PMPosted by Malkontent
I am talking mostly pve but we can discuss pvp if you want. Think about it tho even if the 4 set bonus is THE most powerful 4set in t14 all that means is your pvp dps is going to be that much lower compared to other classes when they lose theirs and you are going to have half as many opportunities to use it to get a kill. So already as you can see your at a disadvantage due to less pvp dps because YOUR DPS WILL BE BALANCED AROUND RECK HAVING A 2.5 MINUTE CD. You can claim well it kills ppl but so do other class cooldowns and they are MUCH MUCH harder to deal with then a melee class that is so easily kiteable if you have half a brain. At some point you have to stop balancing for baddies in pve gear and just let them get recked every 2.5 minutes.


Well, you cannot change reck without accounting for pvp. I agree in this case it seems cool for PVE. I remember on DW usually delaying reck and using it almost every other platform because pf the long cd and to be able to have it for the last tenticle. Still we were one of the best 3 specs and practically the best melee after legendary rogues. I haven't tested pve that much but I have read that Arms is doing decent dps and fury is even better, both getting good spots on dps metrics. Now, improves our dps by a lot and even better with the new enrage mechanic and fury being critcapped for BT during glyphed reck. If you shorten it's cd by almost half or even more you will have to tweek our damage somewhere else cause we would be doing a lot more dps than now. Would like someone doing the math on that.

And on pvp you have to see how much of a priority it is to stop reck. It is almost as important as getting out of smoke bombs in arena, much more threatening than most dps cds out there. At least that was true before patch, now there's Lynx Rush too.

Also the asumption that a point of crit provides a net increase in dps is actually well stated. One point of crit gives you a flat percentage increase in the chances that you will crit with your abilities and melee swings and then account for enrage procs too. If you test it on sims you can get a fixed value of how much dps should a single point of crit grant under average circumstances. That's how stats weights are measured if I'm not wrong.
Well, you cannot change reck without accounting for pvp. I agree in this case it seems cool for PVE. I remember on DW usually delaying reck and using it almost every other platform because pf the long cd and to be able to have it for the last tenticle. Still we were one of the best 3 specs and practically the best melee after legendary rogues. I haven't tested pve that much but I have read that Arms is doing decent dps and fury is even better, both getting good spots on dps metrics. Now, improves our dps by a lot and even better with the new enrage mechanic and fury being critcapped for BT during glyphed reck. If you shorten it's cd by almost half or even more you will have to tweek our damage somewhere else cause we would be doing a lot more dps than now. Would like someone doing the math on that.


For one dps now doesnt matter. For two dps in mop will be balanced around t14 4set halving the cd on reck already as has already been stated many many times. Forgetting that this is beta and now is the time for them to change things like this if they would put the 4set into shortening skullbanner nothing would need changed at all and it would be more in line with the power of other 4sets. Skullbanner is raid wide if you didnt know.

09/19/2012 10:03 PMPosted by Prometheon
And on pvp you have to see how much of a priority it is to stop reck. It is almost as important as getting out of smoke bombs in arena, much more threatening than most dps cds out there. At least that was true before patch, now there's Lynx Rush too.

iam going to quote something you said and ask you to think about it. "It is almost as important as getting out of smoke bombs in arena"<<< a 3 minute cd. Just gonna leave it at that and let you logic that out on your own.

09/19/2012 10:03 PMPosted by Prometheon
Also the asumption that a point of crit provides a net increase in dps is actually well stated. One point of crit gives you a flat percentage increase in the chances that you will crit with your abilities and melee swings and then account for enrage procs too. If you test it on sims you can get a fixed value of how much dps should a single point of crit grant under average circumstances. That's how stats weights are measured if I'm not wrong.

Iam fully aware of how stat weights and ep value work. My issue is when its an unsubstantiated claim by someone i dont know that didnt provide any proof(i.e. links to sims/math) and even then i would need comparisons to other classes to make it legimate. I can quote you off numbers to prove my point if your just gonna take it on blind faith. So what are we stuck with after all this? His opinion that Recklessness is some kind of super cooldown? Well I disagree because this isnt my only heroic geared toon.
Possibly the biggest idiot I've seen all year. Well done. Keep going.
09/20/2012 12:29 AMPosted by Conceit
Possibly the biggest idiot I've seen all year. Well done. Keep going.

eh? So you cant dispute what iam saying so you resort to name calling? That's intense man, you flatter me. And you had to do so on an alt... makes me wonder which one of these dudes ive been arguing with for 3 days you are.
Yeah tell yourself that, it's good for fools to have confidence. Makes it more enjoyable to watch.
Names hurt bro, dont you know?
.
Conceit is not Bloodletters lol.

Anyways, if they were to lower the CD on Reck, they'd nerf how much crit it gives, likely to 30%.

Entertaining thread though, keep it up.
haha we saw what you posted before.
ya i know it said you 2 had the same amount of achieves and when i went in to look it changed... sue me
09/20/2012 12:43 AMPosted by Conceit
haha we saw what you posted before.

We? So your friend brought you in here to call me names? What is this grade school?
Now you're just grasping at straws.
09/20/2012 12:56 AMPosted by Conceit
Now you're just grasping at straws.

Do you have something useful to say or are you and your friend in here to take up space in a fail attempt at trolling?
What friend?
You got a mouse in your pocket?

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