old gods?

Story Forum
I've read a lot on the forums but never get time to read books anymore. So, thought it would be nice if some light could be shed on the old gods.
How'd they start? What Exactly are they? Are they allied with each other or at war with each other? If they're so powerful why don't they have control over this world already?

I've seen things about how Yogg from ulduar was never actually killed and other things like we can't kill old gods only their physical forms. So, anywho can anyone give me some details or somewhere that kind of says all of it. I'm reading on wowpedia a bit but I'd want to be sure i get all the details.
http://www.wowpedia.org/Old_Gods

That will be the easiest way to get you started.
09/16/2012 01:05 PMPosted by Ryeleigh
How'd they start?


They arrived on Azeroth sometime after the Titans initial ordering, and ruled the planet for an unknown amount of time. Eventually, the Titans returned, had a HUGE war, and locked them away.

09/16/2012 01:05 PMPosted by Ryeleigh
What Exactly are they?


There's.... Really no best answer to this.

09/16/2012 01:05 PMPosted by Ryeleigh
Are they allied with each other or at war with each other?


Some were allied, some warred, but right now they all seem to be working together to escape.

09/16/2012 01:05 PMPosted by Ryeleigh
If they're so powerful why don't they have control over this world already?


The Titans locked them away.

09/16/2012 01:05 PMPosted by Ryeleigh
I've seen things about how Yogg from ulduar was never actually killed and other things like we can't kill old gods only their physical forms.


The Titans were able to "kill" Y'shaar (and kind of kill C'thun), but both cases came with a huge cost to both Titan forces and Azeroth.
okay, so how about the titans. I see often they are worded together as they're all good. But, isn't kil'jaeden a titan. Evil one at that? Are there more evil titans? why aren't they having an all out war?

where do bosses like that other guy from ulduar Alagalon the whole destroying our world how is that working with the lore with the titans and old gods?
No, Kil'jaeden was once of the same race as Velen, but chose to be the servent of the dark titan Sargeras in exchange for power.
09/16/2012 01:32 PMPosted by Katarn
No, Kil'jaeden was once of the same race as Velen, but chose to be the servent of the dark titan Sargeras in exchange for power.


sorry That's the guy i meant sargeras.
okay, so how about the titans. I see often they are worded together as they're all good. But, isn't kil'jaeden a titan. Evil one at that? Are there more evil titans? why aren't they having an all out war?

where do bosses like that other guy from ulduar Alagalon the whole destroying our world how is that working with the lore with the titans and old gods?


Kil'jaeden isn't a Titan. He was one of the three leaders of Argus (Velen, Kil'jaeden, Archimonde), and was corrupted along with Archimonde when Sargeras tempted them with power.

Sargeras is (as far as we know) the only outright evil Titan. The others, (like Algalon, before we knocked it into him), simply act without any emotion. They're willing to destroy worlds full of sentient inhabitants in order to fufill their idea of "perfection", but it's not done out of malice.
okay, so how about the titans. I see often they are worded together as they're all good. But, isn't kil'jaeden a titan. Evil one at that? Are there more evil titans? why aren't they having an all out war?

where do bosses like that other guy from ulduar Alagalon the whole destroying our world how is that working with the lore with the titans and old gods?


Kil'jaeden isn't a Titan. He was one of the three leaders of Argus (Velen, Kil'jaeden, Archimonde), and was corrupted along with Archimonde when Sargeras tempted them with power.

Sargeras is (as far as we know) the only outright evil Titan. The others, (like Algalon, before we knocked it into him), simply act without any emotion. They're willing to destroy worlds full of sentient inhabitants in order to fufill their idea of "perfection", but it's not done out of malice.


So, algalon was a titan. Mkay, Now I read some stuff here and see that the aspects where considered the Defenders of the planet. Since they've no longer their power is it likely we'll see titans returning or the Pantheon? i mean what is existent now that can defend us against the old gods without the might of these aspects?
okay, so how about the titans. I see often they are worded together as they're all good. But, isn't sergeras a titan. Evil one at that? Are there more evil titans? why aren't they having an all out war?
Sargeras (I saw your correction) used to be the champion of the titans. It was his duty to hunt down and destroy demons, and he was very good at what he did. However, over time, he became troubled by the depth and intensity of their evil. Eventually, he came to believe that the titans' goal of order was impossible, and that the only universal constant was evil and chaos. He freed the demons he had imprisoned and banded them together into the Burning Legion with the goal of undoing the titans' works across the universe. As far as we know, he is the only evil titan.

where do bosses like that other guy from ulduar Alagalon the whole destroying our world how is that working with the lore with the titans and old gods?
So the titans locked up Yogg-Saron in Ulduar, and placed the various watchers in the Storm Peaks to guard him, with Loken as their leader. Eventually Yogg-Saron managed to corrupt Loken, who freed him. When we killed Loken in the Halls of Lightning, it sent a signal to the titans telling them that he was dead, and so they sent Algalon to investigate. Algalon discovered that the watchers were corrupted, their leader was dead, and Yogg-Saron was free of his prison. He concluded that Azeroth was basically boned, and that the only solution was to destroy it and start over. He was neither good nor evil; just coldly logical.
09/16/2012 01:48 PMPosted by Vegdrasil
okay, so how about the titans. I see often they are worded together as they're all good. But, isn't sergeras a titan. Evil one at that? Are there more evil titans? why aren't they having an all out war?
Sargeras (I saw your correction) used to be the champion of the titans. It was his duty to hunt down and destroy demons, and he was very good at what he did. However, over time, he became troubled by the depth and intensity of their evil. Eventually, he came to believe that the titans' goal of order was impossible, and that the only universal constant was evil and chaos. He freed the demons he had imprisoned and banded them together into the Burning Legion with the goal of undoing the titans' works across the universe. As far as we know, he is the only evil titan.

where do bosses like that other guy from ulduar Alagalon the whole destroying our world how is that working with the lore with the titans and old gods?
So the titans locked up Yogg-Saron in Ulduar, and placed the various watchers in the Storm Peaks to guard him, with Loken as their leader. Eventually Yogg-Saron managed to corrupt Loken, who freed him. When we killed Loken in the Halls of Lightning, it sent a signal to the titans telling them that he was dead, and so they sent Algalon to investigate. Algalon discovered that the watchers were corrupted, their leader was dead, and Yogg-Saron was free of his prison. He concluded that Azeroth was basically boned, and that the only solution was to destroy it and start over. He was neither good nor evil; just coldly logical.


So, now we pretty much are boned since the aspect no longer have their powers. Who is left among this "higher beings" is aesir and vanir still existent on Azeroth?

So, algalon was a titan. Mkay, Now I read some stuff here and see that the aspects where considered the Defenders of the planet. Since they've no longer their power is it likely we'll see titans returning or the Pantheon? i mean what is existent now that can defend us against the old gods without the might of these aspects?


Actually, no, Algalon was not a Titan. He was a Titan construct, similar in scope to Loken, Thorim, Freya, Hodir, and Mimiron. So far, we have yet to meet a Titan face-to-face.

As for the Titans returning, we honestly don't know. I would say that, eventually, yes, the Titans will return, and we'll either side with them in their war against the Old Gods, or we'll fight them if they deem us abominations due to the Curse of Flesh.

As for what can defend us against the Old Gods. . .well, nothing except us. We've already beaten C'thun and Yogg-Saron back into submission, and we utterly annihilated Deathwing, N'Zoth's greatest weapon. It also seems like we're going to destroy the Sha, as well, who are possibly the remnants of the destroyed Old God Y'Shaarj. In fact, the entire point of the Algalon encounter was to prove to him that we didn't need the Titan's help in dealing with the Old Gods.
09/16/2012 01:57 PMPosted by Abal
or we'll fight them if they deem us abominations due to the Curse of Flesh.
We already know they don't. In Uldaman, we're told that the titans view the dwarves (at the very least) as "an acceptable variant, worthy of genesis in their own right."

So, algalon was a titan. Mkay, Now I read some stuff here and see that the aspects where considered the Defenders of the planet. Since they've no longer their power is it likely we'll see titans returning or the Pantheon? i mean what is existent now that can defend us against the old gods without the might of these aspects?


Actually, no, Algalon was not a Titan. He was a Titan construct, similar in scope to Loken, Thorim, Freya, Hodir, and Mimiron. So far, we have yet to meet a Titan face-to-face.

As for the Titans returning, we honestly don't know. I would say that, eventually, yes, the Titans will return, and we'll either side with them in their war against the Old Gods, or we'll fight them if they deem us abominations due to the Curse of Flesh.

As for what can defend us against the Old Gods. . .well, nothing except us. We've already beaten C'thun and Yogg-Saron back into submission, and we utterly annihilated Deathwing, N'Zoth's greatest weapon. It also seems like we're going to destroy the Sha, as well, who are possibly the remnants of the destroyed Old God Y'Shaarj. In fact, the entire point of the Algalon encounter was to prove to him that we didn't need the Titan's help in dealing with the Old Gods.


So, basically the lore is slowly heading the direction to where the old gods will slowly fall perhaps sergarous (too tired to spell) as well and eventually we'll reach a peace on our planet and the lore will be left with alliance VS horde. Thus the release of the next MMO (titan) O.O
Seems like an end could be coming surely not for many years but surely does exist one. But I quote from my barbarian in D3 "true evil never dies"

Edit: oh wait nvm now i see some details about old gods in outlands...
09/16/2012 02:17 PMPosted by Ryeleigh
So, basically the lore is slowly heading the direction to where the old gods will slowly fall perhaps sergarous (too tired to spell) as well and eventually we'll reach a peace on our planet and the lore will be left with alliance VS horde. Thus the release of the next MMO (titan) O.O
Titan is a codename, not the actual name of the game, and while we know almost nothing about it we DO know it has nothing to do with Warcraft, Starcraft, or Diablo.
Annoying plot tumor given increasing importance in the game thanks to hyper-racist/antisemitic sci-fi authors being really popular with internet nerds.
09/16/2012 03:09 PMPosted by Callatham
Annoying plot tumor given increasing importance in the game thanks to hyper-racist/antisemitic sci-fi authors being really popular with internet nerds.


So do you ever have anything interesting to say, or do you exist purely to spout vitriol?
The Old Gods are actually quite the interesting subject or at least would be if we knew more of them. We don't even know much about what happens to them when their physical manifestations are destroyed though it seems their true selves seem to go on existing. And considering much lesser beings are immortal past physical destruction it is only fitting that they are too.

But what are they? Well I'll try my best to describe my theory.

Going by how closely their abilities and servant creatures resemble Shadow Priest abilities and servant creatures I would say that Old Gods are beings of darkness and likely their true forms are composed of dark energy. Beings in some ways like Voidwalkers but also in many other ways completely not, but still Void beings in a sense.

Perhaps they were even beings formed in the supposed collision of Light and Void that created the universe. Bits of energy that broke off from the main whole and coalesced into intelligences of sorts, ones existing outside the universe.

Also I personally believe the Old Gods are all unique and independent entities though possessing the similar abilities being attuned to Void would give them. Who would mistake the emotionless and whispered statements of C'thun for the loud boastful arrogance of Yogg-Saron? But isn't that a fitting distinction for an observing eye and a being that is quite literally all mouth?

So that brings me to my final thought on the matter. The Old Gods are Gods. As in they represent aspects of existence and ideas and perhaps even behave accordingly. Yogg-Saron claims himself to be a God of Death, and perhaps the other less boastful Old Gods are Gods of certain domains as well.

And perhaps their eternal and chaotic conflict wasn't a result of "Fortehlulz" but because the interests of their domains often came into conflict? C'thun, Yogg-Saron and Y'shaarj ruled over the Aqir Empire which likely was not at war with itself, and there are cultures that are capable of describing the coming of the Titans and so the world the Old Gods ruled had to be full of life.

Yet the victory of N'Zoth, who has been confirmed to war with both C'thun and Yogg-Saron, seen in the End Times instance is essentially lifeless in complete contradiction to the world that existed when all Old Gods were free. A lifeless world is not chaos of any sort nor is it the same as the world with Aqir empires.

To me it seems that the world of all the Old Gods was one held in balance by their chaotic conflict, they kept each other in check and prevented anyone from fully achieving the ultimate expression of their goals. For all we know the only Old God desiring the end of all life is N'Zoth.

On a sidenote I feel that An'she and Elune are probably Old Gods as well, just ones composed more of Light than Dark.
I definitely agree it's an interesting topic if i had the time I'd love to read more about them from the books. Many interesting theories probably all true in some ways. I'd think the old gods are literally just evil power that fuse with planets and such to create a balance in some ways.
Similar to the Zerg from SC perhaps in terms of what they are? I remember seeing a view of the cinematic showing the zerg literally fused with an entire planet the Overmind being the main creature. I mean if you look at the basic structure the Overmind and the 2 old gods we've seen they can be comparable.

My question is why don't these old gods ever seem to attack city leaders? like varian, garrosh, lady sylvana? etc etc why is it they never "whisper" to drive those people mad into doing something stupid. If you think that would be the ultimate way of causing chaos.
Although something tells me after the mana bomb garrosh will likely become suspect to the old gods whispering. Not saying he is now but could become so.

My question is why don't these old gods ever seem to attack city leaders? like varian, garrosh, lady sylvana? etc etc why is it they never "whisper" to drive those people mad into doing something stupid. If you think that would be the ultimate way of causing chaos.
Although something tells me after the mana bomb garrosh will likely become suspect to the old gods whispering. Not saying he is now but could become so.


The burning legion are effectively the same as the old gods with how they attack the mortal races using mostly cat's paw armies. BUT they've worked by corrupting leaders quite successfully as well. Humans (Arthas), Night Elves (Azshara), Blood Elves (Kael'Thas), Draenei (Kiljaden/Archimonde), and Orcs (Nerzul/Guldan) all lost their race's leaders to the legion.

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