Rescuing 25-man raiding (US thread)

Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
Prev 1 2 3 8 Next
09/19/2012 06:29 PMPosted by Vinceypoo
Everyone in this game wants to be the "special snowflake"


You say that...

I find it ridiculous that you think that people would rather join some random common 10 man guild when they could be part of the 1-10 25 man guilds on their server.


but can't understand why people would rather be one of 10, rather than one of 25.

But that's not the point. I think a lot of players have had enough of flakey players, oddball personalities, warm bodies, slow-learners and slackers. Until I can personally find a 25-man environment that offers raiding without those annoyances I won't go back to raiding 25s. The only other way to tempt me would be to make 25s the best or only way to raid. Personally I prefer the dynamics and limited personality conflicts that come with 10-mans.
I'm not speaking for every 10 man raider but I'm sure I share this problem with a few. It's not so much the incentive because believe me, most of my 10 man team would really like to do 25 mans, but we just lack the option given our server population.

The obvious solution did come up, how about we server transfer? Then we have to go on a mass recruiting spree which would still end up being cross-server recruitment so regardless of what server we were on, recruiting would be a challenge. Then the solution comes up, how about we just team merge with an equally progressed 10 man? A few problems come up with this. Which guild transfers? Which guild joins the other and loses their original name? How do you work out ranks?. Then if the merger doesn't end up being a good fit, one of the parties will be !@#$ out of luck.

I'm not denying that incentive plays a role in the decision to go 25-man, though. In fact, it would eliminate many of the problems I mentioned. If 25-man had the same incentive as Wrath, there would be enough interest in it that recruiting would not be an issue. Unfortunately, Blizzard won't go back to that.

Solution 3: Creating “guild alliances”.

I still recall the first kill of Malygos back on Kilrogg, as it appeared as if it was two guilds that did it (it was two guilds, but one was the “proving ground” for the main guild). If Blizzard significantly lowered the guild member percentage requirement for 25-man kills, you could potentially have up to three guilds getting together for 25-man raiding content without any of those guilds having to give up their identity, achievement or levelling perks. In fact, maybe a bonus to these (or individual Feat of Strength) could even promote the practice.

Viability: High.

Like the individual Feat of Strength, there’s no real downside to this and the development requirement is negligible; just a number tweak. It’s hard to know if this would be an incentive in and of itself, or even if it would allow certain guilds whose members don’t get along to see past personal differences. My guild during Trial of the Crusader set this up with another guild ran by chums of mine, and it worked beautifully but lacked the “guild progression” aspect that I think it would probably need via the achievement pane.


This was my favorite solution mainly because it makes the guild merge idea to be doable without the problems that could arise. This is assuming our server's population is fixed which Blizzard doesn't plan on doing anytime soon. CRZ obviously doesn't help.

Edit: Oh right, I suppose I should add my own solution to keep this post constructive. Being able to raid current content cross server would trivialize cross-server recruitment. I'm aware this eliminates a server's sense of community by not keeping the raiding within their server but with servers that suffer from such a population issue, what sense of community is there?
09/19/2012 01:09 PMPosted by Zurak
Could 15 man raids be the option? I don't know, maybe.


One raid size would be a boon but the notion of a "compromise" size is idiocy in the highest. This is a game built on social bonds and forcing every guild/raid gorup in the game to retool would be stupid. A better decision would be to pick one size and kill the other. It's the damned if they do and damned if they don't corner Blizz painted themselves into.

09/19/2012 01:31 PMPosted by Pereg
Back in the day of 40man raiding + bench + non raid members, we'd have 60 people online in guild at a time. Always something spontaneous to do with people, or to help out on something out in the world, or pvp with, always chat going on. It was very lively!


Yes we all miss that but sadly it will never come back. I still think Blizzard should have thrown everyone a curve ball and tuned the new world bosses for forty-man raids. The forum QQ would have been amazing.

09/19/2012 06:42 PMPosted by Karamok
Traditionally guilds have done that by monitoring attendance and rewarding or punishing where appropriate. From my experience however, most average guilds aren't up to the task of cutting slackers. They are left to fester and infect the raid and guild atmosphere for too long until the damage becomes irreversible.


This is true. And I think a lot of people who say they were forced to "carry" people in twenty-five man raids were usually in guilds that had poor leadership since most halfway decent progression guilds are pretty tough on under performers.
I thought 25man were the compromise between 40man and 10man.
09/19/2012 06:42 PMPosted by Karamok
The problem...with the problem, is that it's rooted in human behavior, not in the design of the instances and raiding in general. Players playing poorly, or exhibiting poor attendance are not the result of the game directly. What kind of changes can the game make to encourage players to show up when they say they will?


No, part of the issue is the design of the instances. According to wowprogress, there are 4576 guilds that have downed Hagaara on 25, and there are 3787 that have downed Ultraxion on 25. That works out to about 18% of guilds for whom Ultraxion was the next progression kill failed to do so. Let's discuss the Ultraxion 25 versus 10. The dps requirement for Ultraxion 10 was about 82% what the requirement for 25.

Hour of Twilight affected 1 person in 10, and in the casual raiding guild that I raid with they just had the tank stand out for it. For 25, they can't just leave the tanks out for it. So, let's say we have two raid groups, one 10 and one 25, and everyone has exactly the same chance of pressing their button correctly. So for the 10, you have 9 people trying, and for the 25, you have 22 people trying. Keep that in mind, and go read up on the following page. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binomial_distribution Then you have fading light, it affects 3 people in 25, and 1 in 10. So, dps requirements are higher, and there's a higher chance of dps dying.

Speaking from personal experience. The casual raiding guild I was in at the beginning of DS had problems on Ultraxion 25. We had no problems doing it on 10. Heck, we had a lot of people showing up, and we could choose the 10 best players, and breeze through it. I typically got to go, but out of 25 people, 15 had to sit for it. Because of the steeper difficulty, we had people stop showing up for the days we'd have it to try on 25, because we always had problems with people pressing the button. Now, it's pretty much a 10 man guild, though they're trying to go back to 25.

Perhaps the most frustrating thing was how the fading light and hour of twilight were designed. Because they affected either everyone or specific people, I was effectively powerless to help my friends through. I couldn't push the button for them. I could try to push my dps higher to compensate, but I couldn't do it for enough people to carry it through the raid. Heck, for a 25 with 2 tanks and 6 healers, you'd have 17 dps. So if one person would die, and assuming everyone is doing sufficient dps to down the encounter, the surviving dps would have to do 1/16 more damage to compensate. Sure, that about 6% doesn't sound like a lot, but if 2 die, I'd have to do about 13% more dps. If 3 die, I'd have to do about 20% additional dps. It doesn't take long before the other dps can't carry them through.

As far as the tuning differences, with having redone the buffs, it should be much easier to tune. Before, they assumed that most 10 man guilds wouldn't have all relevant buffs, while it was possible to have all of the relevant buffs for certain raid combinations. Now it should be reasonable for most 10 man guilds to bring most, if not all, the buffs and debuffs.

But it doesn't change that certain mechanics are harder on 10 and some are harder on 25. Really, a big part of why Ultraxion was harder on 25 was because the mechanics that were applies to everyone in the raid, but say for Nefarian in BWD, you had it comparatively much more difficult because you had to bring 3 interrupts for the blast novas. In the 25 man guild I was in at the time, we were able to have several interrupts for each platform, so we rarely had problems, because we could have backups in place. That mechanic, requiring 3 interrupts at specific intervals was really much more difficult for 10 than 25. I guess another thing is that with the Nefarian example, you could choose which 3 people (or 6 or 9 or so) to go for interrupts so it could be managed to an extent. (This is in contrast with Ultraxion. Here, you can stack your best people to worry about interrupts.)

I'm fairly optimistic that with the buffs being redone, that they can balance tuning much better. If they manage to balance tuning better, that and the 6 pieces are good steps in the direction for making 25s at least equally attractive for 10s. Still, what they choose for mechanics will affect things.
Back in the day of 40man raiding + bench + non raid members, we'd have 60 people online in guild at a time....


Yes a smaller number of large guilds would support 25m raiding better than the current situation which is a lot of small guilds. But guilds tend to split up before they reach that size now. I've seen it happen, for all sorts of reasons, but it seems people no longer have the patience to wait for a guild to reach a certain size or even enjoy being in very large guilds. I can't work out why, it seems the game has somehow evolved that way since Vanilla.
'evolved' may not be the appropriate word here, Slain.
I have a much better chance of finding 9 people I like and can play pretty well then 24, its also easier to find 10 people with a similar mindset and goals.

Having dealt with 25 man headaches, recruitment and drama for 2 whole expansions not really interested in doing it myself anymore, I do miss the feel off epicness of 25 man raiding.

Kudos to all you guys who still deal with this stuff, especially those who have managed to do it for years and remain positive about it somehow without burning out, I know you work your asses off.
It's an inevitability that some encounters are harder on 10 or 25 than their counterpart, in order to maintain creativity this exists, but the fights that are pure number checks, or tank checks always fall harder on 25 mans, while mechanical encounters are... Toss ups, but spread outs tend to be easier on 10(Yorsahj), and stack ups on 25 (Warmaster).

Difficulty is less relevant the more fun encounters are though, honestly. Spine was a completely brutal fight early on, and even a few nerfs in, but I didn't like the encounter (As much as I push for challenge, this fight failed on so many levels.)

It seems they made Spine just hard for difficulty sake, where as some other encounters like 0% Warlord, which was a pretty good balance of difficulty and fun.
It's an inevitability that some encounters are harder on 10 or 25 than their counterpart, in order to maintain creativity this exists, but the fights that are pure number checks, or tank checks always fall harder on 25 mans, while mechanical encounters are... Toss ups, but spread outs tend to be easier on 10(Yorsahj), and stack ups on 25 (Warmaster).

Difficulty is less relevant the more fun encounters are though, honestly. Spine was a completely brutal fight early on, and even a few nerfs in, but I didn't like the encounter (As much as I push for challenge, this fight failed on so many levels.


I agree with this. Are they making encounters to be fun or are they making encounters easy to balance across 2 raid compositions and 3 difficulties?
I agree with this. Are they making encounters to be fun or are they making encounters easy to balance across 2 raid compositions and 3 difficulties?


From what I've seen on beta, the former.
I am confused to be honest why people think it is easier to run a 10 man guild over a 25 man guild.

Instead of me writing an entire essay, I'll bring up a point I have not seen many people bring up.

People are always saying it's 2.5x the work to logistically put a 25 man raid together. As a GM and a known social butterfly I disagree whole heartedly.

In 10m, one person's actions hold significantly more power over the other 90% of the raiders.

If that one person doesn't show up - it is on the raid leader to find another person to replace that important role (whatever it is) and the other raiders need to explain to the replacement the part of the encounter that the "no show" was doing.

If that one person is truly messing up every attempt or simply isn't that good it is significantly more difficult to find a replacement for YOUR 10 man guild over the other 150+ on your server.

Also on 25 man, using DS as an example, the rings, trinkets, and off pieces drop every time.

Almost EVERYBODY benefits from a boss kill.

On 10m you might not have a shaman in your group, but 1 of the 2 pieces that drops in a mail resto piece. Making that boss kill's loot 50% useless.

Also in 25 mans there are more tasks that can be delegated out by the leader effectively, and I'm not even getting started on how much more community there is.

As a Raid Leader of both and the only guild, on at least my server, to transition from 10 -> 25: The stress level and amount of work each night is DRASTICALLY reduced with 24 other people than with 9 others. And to me the fights and sense of accomplishment are FAR more epic.

Maybe I am the only one that sees it this way though.


You are the only one who sees it that way. The fact that you think dealing with 9 people over 24 is easier is just not smart.

The fact you think that 25mans get all the drops all the time they want is just plain dumb as well. We have had 1 single agi "rare" drop ring ever. We've had 2 bone links ever. We've had no str rings ever(recruited a few but no drops). RNG for 25s is just as trashy as it is for 10s just that we have at least 1 of each class. All that means is the first drops of some items get put to use. Other than that we have the same crap drop rate.

The difficulty of recruiting thing is very iffy as well. While there are more 10man guilds to compete with members over, you have a poll of 4-5 times the players, at a minimum, to pick from. People wanting 25man guilds are practically non-existent due to the fact that it is commonly viewed as "dead".

Maybe it worked out nicely for you and that you had more work doing your 10man, some how, doesn't mean its the "norm" for 10s to be like that.
I have the problem with larger raids that they are actually far less epic in practice than even a 5-man dungeon. Why? Because I am meaningless. I could literally afk through the fight and barely affect the outcome. This is less true if you are in a so-called "progression" raid and a couple percent means the difference between a kill and a wipe, but it is always the case that more people means individual contribution is less meaningful. Which is largely why there seems to be so much problem with LFR -- you have 10 people who semi-afk because they all decide they aren't important at the same time.

And I really don't know where you guys are getting this "social interaction" stuff from. I've seen people get kicked out of 25-man raids for making a silly joke while people are running back from a wipe, and god forbid you actually speak on vent unless you're the raid leader, main tank, or primary healer. Raids are the most anti-social thing in WoW. Much of it is by necessity, but it doesn't change the fact that there's barely any communication in a raid that isn't direct instructions from whoever is directing things, much less a real social experience happening. With 10-man raids, I at least get the opportunity to occasionally type something in raid chat without fear of instant reprisal.
09/19/2012 11:29 PMPosted by Telepathy
The fact you think that 25mans get all the drops all the time they want is just plain dumb as well. We have had 1 single agi "rare" drop ring ever. We've had 2 bone links ever. We've had no str rings ever(recruited a few but no drops). RNG for 25s is just as trashy as it is for 10s just that we have at least 1 of each class. All that means is the first drops of some items get put to use. Other than that we have the same crap drop rate.


Instead of bickering back and forth I'll address one of your points.

You clearly have no idea how boss loot chance works.

If there is 2 slots for gear to drop (10 man) and 16 items on a loot table. You have 2 RNG rolls for that item off the loot table to appear and "drop".

If there are 6 slots for gear to drop (25 man) and 16 items on a loot table. You have 6 RNG rolls for that item off the loot table to appear and "drop".

Explain to me how this ISN'T a better chance for the item that YOU need to drop off of a specific boss?


And I really don't know where you guys are getting this "social interaction" stuff from. I've seen people get kicked out of 25-man raids for making a silly joke while people are running back from a wipe, and god forbid you actually speak on vent unless you're the raid leader, main tank, or primary healer. Raids are the most anti-social thing in WoW. Much of it is by necessity, but it doesn't change the fact that there's barely any communication in a raid that isn't direct instructions from whoever is directing things, much less a real social experience happening. With 10-man raids, I at least get the opportunity to occasionally type something in raid chat without fear of instant reprisal.


I am so sorry that you have had such awful guild environments. Not all 25 mans are run so militant, after a wipe or during breaks we give extra rewards to people who bring the best joke per night.
Instead of bickering back and forth I'll address one of your points.

You clearly have no idea how boss loot chance works.

If there is 2 slots for gear to drop (10 man) and 16 items on a loot table. You have 2 RNG rolls for that item off the loot table to appear and "drop".

If there are 6 slots for gear to drop (25 man) and 16 items on a loot table. You have 6 RNG rolls for that item off the loot table to appear and "drop".

Explain to me how this ISN'T a better chance for the item that YOU need to drop off of a specific boss?


When did I say the chance for the item we need was less/more? I never said anything of the sort. I merely said that RNG !@#$s over 25mans about the same as 10s. Are our chances a little better? Sure, but no where near anything close to balance out the modes.

You saying things like all the rings and trinkets drop all the time for 25s was just ignorant. I was pointing out that you were incorrect and had no actual data/facts to back anything up outside of what you think to be true, which obviously isn't anywhere close to the truth.
Yes we all miss that but sadly it will never come back. I still think Blizzard should have thrown everyone a curve ball and tuned the new world bosses for forty-man raids. The forum QQ would have been amazing.


Are you a wizard?

Front Page of MMOC:

It will take a raid of roughly 40 players to take down the Sha of Anger. He will appear in different areas of the zone and change what is spawned around him.
40man in pre tier 14 with this scaling is about 15man in tier 16.
09/19/2012 06:29 PMPosted by Vinceypoo
Did you even read my post?


Read? Skimmed would probably be the better word to use. My apologies :). The following is what I was getting at though....

Let's say we're talking about Zon'ozz Heroic. On 10 man you have 10 players and it was common to form 3 small groups to handle the additional adds in the dark phase. On 25m you have 25 players, and twice as many adds. This immediately means you are either forced to organize more players into those 3 groups or create more individual groups to ensure those adds die in a timely fashion. This is more work in terms of setup time, period.

When it comes to loot distribution there are more drops per boss and more players eligible to be given those drops in a 25m. This means more time spent distributing loot. No, this doesn't make it "harder" in any significant way. It would be more accurate to say it makes it a bigger pain in the !@#.

Most of the setup time for a 25 man before a boss is even pulled and immediately after it is killed involves more work. I don't see how you can reasonably dispute this fact.

Also in 25 mans there are more tasks that can be delegated out by the leader effectively, and I'm not even getting started on how much more community there is.


I would agree completely with this statement. Any competent 25 man would have multiple players "running" the guild. It's good that you have chosen to do this with yours. The thing is, you don't have to do this in a 10 man. In a 10 man it's not much to ask a single person to handle almost every responsibility. In a 25m you're insane if you place every responsibility on a single person. AKA, 25 mans have to do more to ensure everything runs smoothly, from recruitment to loot distribution.

Speaking from personal experience. The casual raiding guild I was in at the beginning of DS had problems on Ultraxion 25. We had no problems doing it on 10. Heck, we had a lot of people showing up, and we could choose the 10 best players, and breeze through it. I typically got to go, but out of 25 people, 15 had to sit for it. Because of the steeper difficulty, we had people stop showing up for the days we'd have it to try on 25, because we always had problems with people pressing the button. Now, it's pretty much a 10 man guild, though they're trying to go back to 25.


I'm not going to quote your entire post but still feel it needs addressed. This is what I mean when I say good players will be good and bad players will be bad. Any competent player wouldn't have significant difficulty hitting their button at the correct time on Ultraxion. When looking at this mechanic from the standpoint of 10 good players vs 25 good players, it effectively has the same difficulty associated with it.

There are more difficult situations in 25 mans along these lines but they virtually always involve coordination amongst the entire raid or portions of the raid. Press a button isn't one of them.

The numbers absolutely must be higher tuned in a 25 man for the encounters to be comparatively similar. You have a higher ratio of DPS to non-DPS in a 25 man raid and as such more available DPS. The difference between Ultraxion 10 and 25 was perhaps a bit over-kill. This is more a result of improper tuning. Still, the point remains.

Again, I would agree some 25 encounters are more difficult overall compared to 10 man encounters, and vice versa. It's simply inaccurate to pretend all 25 man encounters are more difficult once the boss has been pulled just because there are 25 players capable of making a mistake. If you don't raid with mistake prone players (otherwise known as "bads") this is a non issue.

If anything I would say the biggest problem facing 25 man raiding is that every pain in the $%^ aspect of raiding becomes magnified for that format. This isn't going to be corrected by giving out an extra piece of loot, an extra tier piece or any other relatively simple change. It would require enormous incentives, and I don't think the developers are going to go down that road (because, well, with the raid format "equalization" the cat is already out of the bag, so to speak).
Vince, stop turning this into a 10v25 thread. Stay on the topic of ways to make 25 man raiding more appealing without making 10 man worthless

09/20/2012 02:12 AMPosted by Turagent
It will take a raid of roughly 40 players to take down the Sha of Anger. He will appear in different areas of the zone and change what is spawned around him.


Are we talking Average Raiders, or Sarosha Average raiders? 40 man is Blizzard's definition, but you will definitely see 20 people from better guilds killing it in blues eventually.
Some ideas:

1. More Sellable Stuff

It seems like 25 man raid teams have an easier time selling stuff (probably because it is trivial to "carry" a 25th person through farm content). Why not add more BoE / unique vanity stuff to just the 25-man format? More things for them to sell to non-25 man raiders (or keep for themselves for show).

2. Prestige Armor

What if the 25-man version of armor had different / interesting visual procs or something (kind of like what they are doing in challenge mode gear)? Right now it is a slight re-skin, but we could up the ante.

3. Tradeskill Mats

What if 25-man bosses dropped things like "enchanting dust" or flasks (like the satchel system)? Just to make it easier / cheaper for 25-man raiders to properly maintain their gear?

None of these things would make 10-man raiding suck - they would just add some non-essential (but probably very tasty) perks to 25-man raiding.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum