Glyph of regrowth analysis

Druid
Hello there, this is just to see the real value of Glyph of Regrowth, a glyph I am considering taking:

Data
Data from Wowhead, using the MoP version of the spells:

Regrowth
29.7% of base mana
1.5 sec cast
10 383 heal (average) + 95.8% of spellpower
Has a minor dot component and an extra 60% chance to crit

Healing Touch
28.9% of base mana
2.5 sec cast
20 130 heal (average) + 186% of spellpower

Because of the massive increased chance to crit, a regrowth crit heals for about the same as a non-crit Healing Touch. It even scales slightly better with spellpower.

At 20% chance to crit:

Regrowth
Heal: 12460 + 114.96%SP per second
Cost: 19.8% BMPS (Base mana per second)
Efficiency: 629.29 + 5.75 %SP per %BM

Healing Touch
Heal: 9662 + 89.28%SP per second
Cost: 11.56% BMPS
Efficiency: 835.81 + 7.72 %SP bet %BM

Comparison:
Regrowth has 127.8% (spellpower only, base heal at 129%) of Healing Touch's HPS
Regrowth costs 171% of Healing Touch's MPS
Regrowth has 74.5% of Healing Touch's efficiency

If we apply the glyph of regrowth, we obtain:

Regrowth
Heal: 13 844 + 128.73%SP per second
Cost: 19.8% BMPS (Base mana per second)
Efficiency: 699 + 6.5 %SP per %BM

Giving a comparison of:
Regrowth has 144.2% (spellpower only, base heal at 143%) of Healing Touch's HPS
Regrowth costs 171% of Healing Touch's MPS
Regrowth has 84% of Healing Touch's efficiency

Remember that this is with 20% crit, a fairly large amount. Plus, remember than regrowth will land a whole second faster than Healing Touch.

The breakpoint in efficiency (where regrowth is as efficient as Healing Touch, with glyph) lies at a crit percentage of 0.24%.

Analysis
With abysmal crit rate, the glyph gives a substantial increase in Health per second for minimal efficiency loss, versus spamming Healing Touch, while starting to heal one second faster.

However, using the glyph removes the HoT component, making Swiftmend castable only on a Rejuvenated target.

Keep in mind that the efficiency of Healing Touch accounts for a potential crit, and therefore may end up overhealing, whereas Regrowth crits 100% of the time, being completely predictable.

In PVP, being always on the move is necessary. Regrowth takes 60% of Healing Touch's cast time for a similar heal, a massive increase in movement uptime on top of being harder to interrupt with high haste (well, you rarely hardcast HT in PVP anyway). This glyph is extremely potent where insane HPS is required, especially when combined with Tree of Life (no interrupt!) and low crit levels. However, Regrowth + Swiftmend gives a massive health burst to any target, a good tool lost

For PVE, massive single-target HPS, while useful, can easily be covered by the other healing classes without expending a glyph slot, and removes the RG+SW combo. The glyph slot can then be spent on utility, like increasing Stampeding roar's range or having a 100% rebirth.

Conclusion
PVP: Solid choice for dealing with extreme burst (such as a 5v5 arena), especially when combined with ToL

PVE: Not really worth it.

Notes
-Haste, being an overall speed factor, was not included in the calculations
This is fantastic =)

Thanks dude - I've been rolling over in my head if i wanted to glyph it for PvP or not. This just 100% sold me on it.
I'd like to mention the resto passive ability Living Seed.
Each time regrowth crits (every time), you get a seed :D

This is what helped convince me to use the glyph.
Living Seed is not that impressive, imo.
More numbers, but from a different tack...glyphed Regrowth vs. Healing Touch. Very much anecdotal, since it relies mostly on my experience and some napkin math, but maybe someone will find it useful.

I'm going to assume numbers similar to what I see for myself in raid buffs...25k spellpower, 18% crit, 12.5% haste, 23% mastery. Both heals have some RNG factor and numbers given below are averages.

First, Healing Touch.

Healing Touch
Cost: 28.9% of base mana, or 17340 mana
Cast time: 2.5 sec, or 2.22 sec modified by haste

Base healing: 20130 (base) + 46500 (SP bonus) + 15325 (mastery) = 81955
Base Crit healing: 81955 x 2.09 (crit bonus including meta) = 171286
Living Seed healing: 171286 x 30% = 51384
Total Crit healing: 171286 + 51384 = 222672
Total average healing: (81955 x 82%) + (222672 x 18%) = 107284

HPS/HPCT: 48326
HPM: 6.19

And the same for Regrowth:

Regrowth with Glyph of Regrowth
Cost: 29.7% of base mana, or 17820 mana
Cast time: 1.5 sec, or 1.33 sec modified by haste

Base healing: 10384 (base) + 23950 (SP bonus) + 7897 (mastery) = 42231
Base Crit healing: 42231 x 2.09 (crit bonus including meta) = 88263
Living Seed healing: 88263 x 30% = 26479
Total Crit healing: 88263 + 26479 = 114742
Total average healing: (42231 x 0%) + (114742 x 100%) = 114742

HPS/HPCT: 86272
HPM: 6.44

This of course does not take into account the effect of overheal, but that's something that both spells suffer from. It should be noted that the Living Seed component has less of a worry with this since Living Seed is only activated after damage has been taken.

The numbers also assume full effect of Living Seed, which is not the case if you're spamming either heal (since Living Seeds will inevitably overwrite each other). Hopefully this doesn't come up much in practice, as spamming either will run you out of mana.

Analysis

I want my Regrowth glyphed because if I do that, I can use it exclusively. I don't use Healing Touch anymore. Regrowth hits harder (on average), is more consistent (the crit does not rely on RNG and every single cast gets a Living Seed), has higher throughput in those rare situations where I need healing now, and is more efficient. It will also run you out of mana faster specifically because it's faster, but again, hopefully you will not find yourself having to spam Regrowths too often.

Dropping Healing Touch is nice on the muscle memory because you're not changing spells when Incarnation is up. You also don't have to decide if this is one of those times you need a fast heal over a big heal...glyphed Regrowth is both.

It's notable that if Regrowth was not glyphed, I would not want it as a Healing Touch replacement. It is the glyph itself that raises it to that status.
Morphheus' numbers are based on the assumption that a critical effect of a heal is 150% of the base effect. I submit that a critical effect for a heal is 200% of the base effect, which would invalidate his entire analysis.
Yeah, I like regrowth glyph for pvp, though top arena guys all seem to take the same 3 glyphs: barkskin, lifebloom and cyclone.

But I'll give up the extra 4 yards on clone to get much more powerful burst healing.
I did that analysis in my head a couple weeks ago and it's what made me decide to drop my Glyph of Healing Touch and stop using that spell (I replaced it with Glyph of Wild Growth). Now that I took the time to write it down, it looks even better.

But one thing that the numbers don't really suggest is what's going to happen on a typical cast. While it's true that an average cast of Healing Touch will net you 107k healing, a typical cast will instead only be about 82k. Sure, sometimes you'll manage that crit and end up with 171k plus the Living Seed, but there's a good chance that'll be at least partly overheal just because it's so big and unexpected.

But given one cast of Regrowth, I know I'm going to get an 88k heal in 1.3 seconds with a 27k Living Seed behind it...every single time. Not only is that much bigger than one typical Healing Touch cast, but it's far less likely to overheal because you're not going to occasionally be surprised by 90k extra healing that you weren't expecting.

When you simply process numbers and averages, it doesn't properly represent just how nice consistency is. Knowing what I'm going to get probably would make the Glyph of Regrowth worth using even if it didn't do as much healing as Healing Touch...the fact that it does more just makes it a slam dunk.
09/24/2012 05:52 AMPosted by Morphheus
However, using the glyph removes the HoT component, making Swiftmend castable only on a Rejuvenated target.


That's correct and is the best option there is

09/24/2012 05:52 AMPosted by Morphheus
For PVE, massive single-target HPS, while useful, can easily be covered by the other healing classes without expending a glyph slot, and removes the RG+SW combo. The glyph slot can then be spent on utility, like increasing Stampeding roar's range or having a 100% rebirth.


RG+SM is worthless. 100% RB is optional. SR is situational and is in fact optional even then (first boss of HoF where you can't cast anyways).

Conclusion
PVP: Solid choice for dealing with extreme burst (such as a 5v5 arena), especially when combined with ToL

Uh huh

PVE: Not really worth it.


Here's some 'real numbers' from last raid with RG glyphed.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/i82vwjx6tm54ie3n/details/3/

I noticed you didn't mention LiviingSeed. It's an important part you conveniently left out.

We rarely use HT in a real raid - something you apparently wouldn't know since you don't raid. Again, we can and might use it depending but overwhelming majority of the time we use a RG because it's so much faster + a guarantee LS. We know that an avg guaranteed RG crit matches HT and surpasses it with LS period.

The RG hot is meaningless for all practical purposes. I know the LFR crowd seems to believe otherwise but I digress.

The other glyph choices are optional period.
I think I started with Rejuv and Regrowth then dropped glyph of Rejuv for Healing Touch cuz I rarely have Rejuv on 3 targets AND have time to Nourish. I raid 10 man though.
11/15/2012 09:49 AMPosted by Phaydre
I think I started with Rejuv and Regrowth then dropped glyph of Rejuv for Healing Touch cuz I rarely have Rejuv on 3 targets AND have time to Nourish. I raid 10 man though.


That glyph is bad and you should be using WG one. 1 extra heal is extremely more important.
I'm using Lifebloom, Regrowth, and Wild Growth. I'm not thrilled about the third one (I raid 10-mans too), but it's better than any of my other options...60% Rebirth is good enough. I may occasionally swap it out for a Stampeding Roar glyph (which you can use on the first boss in HoF if you get it off before you step into the middle).

I also don't use Nourish in raids, except pre-pull to get Harmony started, so the Rejuv glyph doesn't do me any good. Nourish has been pummeled to the point where glyphed Regrowth actually is more efficient (a higher HPM) than Nourish. It defeats the purpose of Nourish as being our "slow, efficient heal" if it's less efficient than our fast, big heal.
11/15/2012 09:56 AMPosted by Moophious
I think I started with Rejuv and Regrowth then dropped glyph of Rejuv for Healing Touch cuz I rarely have Rejuv on 3 targets AND have time to Nourish. I raid 10 man though.


That glyph is bad and you should be using WG one. 1 extra heal is extremely more important.

Even though it lengthens the cd on WG? I mean, using more Swiftmends means I can hit up to 3 targets more often (and there are lots of stacking phases,) whereas fewer WG means I can hit 1 more target less often. I would have to do the math to see how the exact numbers play out, but that was my logic in taking HT over WG glyph.
For my part, I have not yet committed to the WG glyph. This was my first week raiding with it, and since I don't tend to use WG on cooldown, the extra CD didn't seem to affect me that much. However there were times when I really wished it was up before it was, and of course I had to fight the fact that I'm used to being able to fire another one off as soon as I see the HoT icons from the previous one wear off.

I'm a little more worried about it going into HoF for the first time tonight, when I'm pretty sure there are going to be times when I want as much WG as I can get.
This is a comparison of glyphed regrowth vs healing touch. Regrowth is known to be massivly stronger in healing per cast time and healing per second in both it's glyphed and unglyphed forms, so that aspect is not compared. Haste and mastery are not considered for simplicity's sake as they should affect both spells equally. We're going to use 20,000 spellpower as a baseline assumption for a well equiped druid of this gear tier and because it's a round number. Meta gem bonus favors regrowth, but is not included for simplicity. The question we're considering is what critical hit chance do you need for healing touch to equal glyphed regrowth in efficiency.

Base Stats:
Regrowth
29.7% of base mana = 17,820 fixed cost
1.5 sec cast
10 383 heal (average) + 95.8% of spellpower = 29,543 * 100% crit chance = 59,086

Healing Touch
28.9% of base mana = 17,340 fixed cost
2.5 sec cast
20 130 heal (average) + 186% of spellpower = 57,330

So at a 0% crit rating, Regrowth is 3.32 HPM and Healing Touch is 3.30 HPM
At 10% crit rating, Regrowth is still 3.32 HPM and Healing Touch is 3.64 HPM
The breakeven point is at less than 1% crit rating, which every druid has baseline.

The living seed issue does make this issue hard to model. When you're healing tank or in PvP, your living seed will almost always be used to it's full effect. When you're healing raid damage, it's practically useless.

If the living seed is useful healing, then glyphed Regrowth becomes 3.98 HPM
Healing Touch at 0% crit is still 3.30 HPM
Healing Touch at 10% crit becomes 3.70 HPM
Healing Touch at 20% crit becomes 4.10 HPM
The breakeven point being 17% crit.
11/15/2012 10:27 AMPosted by Prall
When you're healing tank or in PvP, your living seed will almost always be used to it's full effect. When you're healing raid damage, it's practically useless.

That's a very good point.
Haste and mastery are not considered for simplicity's sake as they should affect both spells equally. We're going to use 20,000 spellpower as a baseline assumption for a well equiped druid of this gear tier and because it's a round number. Meta gem bonus favors regrowth, but is not included for simplicity.

That's a whole lot of exclusions to make, and it turns your otherwise good analysis into something that unfortunately is not applicable to what actually happens.

You'll notice in my original math above I did include HPM. You'll notice that at 18% crit (higher than your 17% breakpoint), glyphed Regrowth is still considerably more efficient than Healing Touch, subject to the caveats about Living Seed that you noted and which affected both of our calculations. So why the difference?

Because unlike your assertion, some things do not affect each spell equally. Just look at your HPM numbers...they're better than 40% lower than mine, which are based on the numbers that actually exist (for me) in raids. If we're using numbers that are 40% different, one of us is making poor assumptions.

I've raided for three weeks. Two days ago I got Will of the Emperor down for the first time. I'm not an elite raider. Yet my unbuffed spellpower is almost 1000 higher than what you list as your raid-buffed spellpower. You're missing more than 20% of your healing in ignoring Mastery. Ignoring the much greater effect of the meta bonus on Regrowth than on Healing Touch is going to skew that breakpoint downward. It is difficult to know exactly how these changes affect the spells in relation to one another because they necessarily do not affect them equally. That's clear from the completely opposite conclusions that you and I draw for HPM numbers at 18% crit (you say HT is slightly more efficient at that point, I say RG is considerably more efficient).

Of the things that you listed, only haste affects both spells equally (in that it doesn't affect HPM at all). The other ones need to be accounted for.
The living seed issue does make this issue hard to model. When you're healing tank or in PvP, your living seed will almost always be used to it's full effect. When you're healing raid damage, it's practically useless.


You know when you say this it most likely means I don't even need to look up your toon and whether you raid or not (My guess is LFR). Wondering why? Because any real raider heals both tanks and raid and this is even more so in a 10m environment which as it happens is the majority of of the remaining raiding guilds in the world.

Not to mention the fact that except for TOL RG will more than likely ALWAYS be first cast upon one of your tanks and not your raid. Why? If someone is going to be in danger of dying that's what NS+ is for and because your tanks will most of the time be taking the constant damage and LS will benefit.

This type of talk is purely ignorance plain and simple whether or not it offends one's sensibilities.

This is why theory-crafting by itself is not superior to theory-crafting and actually raiding the encounters.

It's similar to this thread on MMO-CHAMP

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/806487-Resto-Druid-Guide-5-0?p=18811912&viewfull=1#post18811912 and continue to the last page in the thread for more of the same ignornace spouted as

Where we have people (theory-crafters) some who haven't even raided content in 4 tiers arguing with someone who is 25 man Heroic with a history that makes all of them put together silly. But they continue to spill BS about things they no nothing about and 'numbers'. I really suggest everyone to read the interactions between Torty and Maxvla and Myrrar and ask yourself who you really think knows what they're talking about. Some guy who doesn't even RAID or someone who not only raids but raids the class under discussion?
11/15/2012 11:17 AMPosted by Moophious
The living seed issue does make this issue hard to model. When you're healing tank or in PvP, your living seed will almost always be used to it's full effect. When you're healing raid damage, it's practically useless.


You know when you say this it most likely means I don't even need to look up your toon and whether you raid or not (My guess is LFR). Wondering why? Because any real raider heals both tanks and raid and this is even more so in a 10m environment which as it happens is the majority of of the remaining raiding guilds in the world.

This type of talk is purely ignorance plain and simple whether or not it offends one's sensibilities.

I don't know if I'd take quite that strong a tack on it, because he isn't saying "when you're a tank healer" or "when you're a raid healer"...he says "when you're healing tank" and "when you're healing raid damage." I certainly do both in every fight, and I suspect he does too.

That being said, aside from in the middle of Incarnation, I don't find myself using Regrowth on non-tanks much. If a non-tank needs a heal, they're probably getting a Rejuv (and if they're low or still taking damage, a Swiftmend) before I consider something quicker.

Part of that is an efficiency concern. Rejuvenation is one of the most efficient spells we have, as long as the running time doesn't hurt you (I heal 10-man, so getting heals sniped is not a serious problem for me). Regrowth is more efficient on the tank because the Living Seed is going to be more useful and works well for stabilization. So I do make an actual effort to give most of my Regrowths to tanks.

It doesn't dismiss anything that he said as far as the usefulness of Living Seed in either scenario, but the tank scenario happens more often.
11/15/2012 11:17 AMPosted by Moophious
The living seed issue does make this issue hard to model. When you're healing tank or in PvP, your living seed will almost always be used to it's full effect. When you're healing raid damage, it's practically useless.


You know when you say this it most likely means I don't even need to look up your toon and whether you raid or not (My guess is LFR). Wondering why? Because any real raider heals both tanks and raid and this is even more so in a 10m environment which as it happens is the majority of of the remaining raiding guilds in the world.

This type of talk is purely ignorance plain and simple whether or not it offends one's sensibilities.

Personally, I didn't take what Prall said as meaning he exclusively heals the tank or raid. I took it as meaning when your heal lands on a tank or when your heal is applied to someone else during "raid damage."

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