Admiral Rogers was correct

Moon Guard
Prev 1 5 6 7 11 Next
09/28/2012 12:15 PMPosted by Kalissia
Velen failed to warn people of the Cataclysm because


09/28/2012 11:48 AMPosted by Frostytroll
for a prophet, he is pretty terrible and has been wrong before.


And moving on.

09/28/2012 12:15 PMPosted by Kalissia
the correct vision


Why does a history of failures and wrong visions mean that this time he's right?
09/28/2012 12:29 PMPosted by Frostytroll
Why does a history of failures and wrong visions mean that this time he's right?


Because they are coming. Also, because Blizzard.
09/28/2012 12:21 PMPosted by Æticus
1) The demons in this alternate vision are the horde?


Yes, but the biggest offenders are the undead and the orcs.

09/28/2012 12:21 PMPosted by Æticus
2) What's so horrible about the thought that to find peace both side will have to suck it up and let bygones be bygones?


Because only one side is wrong. Because only one side will gain from "both sides sucking it up". Because one side has nothing to suck up. And because it doesn't make a difference in the end whether demons or orcs kill people. And lastly, just because you say you are sorry doesn't mean you are suddenly free of guilt.

09/28/2012 12:36 PMPosted by Kalissia
Because he learned from his mistakes.


This doesn't actually become true until he stops making mistakes.

09/28/2012 12:38 PMPosted by Noitora
Because they are coming. Also, because Blizzard.


This is the most reasonable answer so far. Yes, the only way it's going to be true is if/when Blizzard just makes it happen.

That doesn't make it less stupid. Nor does it make it true now. Nor a desirable outcome. Nor an interesting story.
09/27/2012 08:29 PMPosted by Karob
http://www.wowpedia.org/Scarlet_Crusade
Were completely justified in doing what they did to the Horde.


wat
09/28/2012 12:25 PMPosted by Lellex
The Army of the Light is still really lame. I want to learn more about races, not have them all homogenized into a single morally pure crusade. Solame.


Yep.

I'd be fine with a jaunt to Argus in the game, because the poor Draenei get absolutely no lore development or story progression. But at the same time, I get the feeling the lame YOU MUST UNITE TO FIGHT TO DEMON storyline will just be bashed into our faces again and again whenever Blizzard sees fit to remember they added Draenei as playable characters. Velen and his army of the light stuff is boring garbage, tell me more about the actual spacegoats and their world and culture.

I'm still ~upset~ about the end of the Sunwell arc.


I can't say I'm too upset about it because I've never been too into blood elves, but I can definitely understand where you're coming from. They basically became indebted to the Draenei. And I also don't get why the Draenei did it, seeing as they're part of the alliance and all.
09/28/2012 12:57 PMPosted by Ferenold


Yep.

I'd be fine with a jaunt to Argus in the game, because the poor Draenei get absolutely no lore development or story progression. But at the same time, I get the feeling the lame YOU MUST UNITE TO FIGHT TO DEMON storyline will just be bashed into our faces again and again whenever Blizzard sees fit to remember they added Draenei as playable characters. Velen and his army of the light stuff is boring garbage, tell me more about the actual spacegoats and their world and culture.

I'm still ~upset~ about the end of the Sunwell arc.


I can't say I'm too upset about it because I've never been too into blood elves, but I can definitely understand where you're coming from. They basically became indebted to the Draenei. And I also don't get why the Draenei did it, seeing as they're part of the alliance and all.


Because the Light is a positive force and they'd rather their enemies be using it rather than demon magic because the latter is far more likely to end up destroying the whole world than the former.

Basically, they got to choose what weapons their enemies used, and they chose Light over Fel.


I can't say I'm too upset about it because I've never been too into blood elves, but I can definitely understand where you're coming from. They basically became indebted to the Draenei. And I also don't get why the Draenei did it, seeing as they're part of the alliance and all.


Because the Light is a positive force and they'd rather their enemies be using it rather than demon magic because the latter is far more likely to end up destroying the whole world than the former.

Basically, they got to choose what weapons their enemies used, and they chose Light over Fel.


Without the Sunwell they would perish or be driven to further despair, though.
We also have bad examples to follow in the Horde, as always.

The point I'm trying to make is it's now more balanced for each side to RP out. Each side can more easily play either blood-thirsty or honorable and it's perfectly reasonable/canon.

EDIT: I think Admiral Roger's decision was dishonorable. It's not other cultures' morals you should abide by, it's your own. He was dishonorable by human (and Alliance) standards, therefore he was dishonorable.


Let's make one thing clear.

RP is it's own world of player-created and player-driven stories. People are free to do whatever they like with their own time and imagine whatever they wish for their own character - whether that character be lore-accurate or no. This includes myself.

However, this is not a discussion of RP. This is an OOC thread regarding story and characters as officially written by Blizzard for a Blizzard game. What you (or I) want for your (or my) own characters has no bearing on this discussion.

With that in mind, let's make a second thing clear.

The backbone of the Horde, since Wrath of the Lich King, are the orcs and the forsaken. Of the Horde races, these two field the largest armies, hold the greatest amount of territory (contested or no), and provide the driving force for what shapes the faction. Everyone else has essentially been relegated to the role of sidekick for those two races.

One more thing they have in common - both of them are utterly contemptuous of the Alliance's standards of warfare. The orcs miss no opportunity to decry the Alliance as weaklings, cowards, dogs, or a multitude of other insults. When the Alliance holds back and attempts to maintain its standards (minimize civilian deaths and collateral damage, focus on greater threats like the Scourge or Twilight) the orcs sneer at percieved weakness and are quick to jam a blade in the Alliance's back for it. When the Alliance simply unloads, like at Camp Taurajo, the orcs change their tune on a dime, decrying the act as atrocity and screaming for heads to roll in revenge.

The forsaken go one step further and simply treat the races of the Alliance as cattle, suitable for dissection, experimentation, mind control, forced labor, and outright revivification into their own ranks.

It's all well and good to say that the Alliance should hold to its standards, but at some point the faction will simply learn that they must start punching back - that no matter what they do or what behavior they maintain, the orcs and the forsaken (and hence, the Horde as a whole) as they currently stand have no interest in negotiation, armistice, truce, or peace of any kind. Garrosh orders the wholesale extermination of the races of the Alliance, and the majority of orcs cheer his name while the dissenters are crushed. Sylvanas orders the creation of virulent plagues and gives clearance for the horrific butchery of prisoners and civilians, and there is little peep of protest from the Forsaken's ranks.

Faced with foes such as these, the Alliance is left with little choice but to take the gloves off - their races will cease to exist if they don't turn this war around.
09/28/2012 12:29 PMPosted by Frostytroll
Why does a history of failures and wrong visions mean that this time he's right?

Cause Blizzard said so..at least until they change their minds and say that he's wrong. Velen didn't warn anyone about the cataclysm, because he basically didn't care about what was happening on Azeroth. Arguably, he still doesn't, except perhaps in as much as it impacts the Draenei/Naaru being able to draft the alliance and horde both into the the "End of WoW" battle against the the Legion. For all their supposed superiority, the Draenei and Naaru are clearly just as fallible as everyone else in the WoW universe have proven to be. If you're looking for some infallible paragon to follow, you're going to be waiting a LONG time.

Because only one side is wrong. Because only one side will gain from "both sides sucking it up". Because one side has nothing to suck up. And because it doesn't make a difference in the end whether demons or orcs kill people. And lastly, just because you say you are sorry doesn't mean you are suddenly free of guilt.

Truth-and-reconciliation commission, incoming.
Kruze is one of my favorite posters.
09/28/2012 12:57 PMPosted by Ferenold
I can't say I'm too upset about it because I've never been too into blood elves, but I can definitely understand where you're coming from. They basically became indebted to the Draenei. And I also don't get why the Draenei did it, seeing as they're part of the alliance and all.



General Tiras'alan says: Why do you suffer the presence of this despicable Lady Liadrin? She and her followers distort the Light and make a mockery of all we stand for!

A'dal says: Patience, general. The Light embraces all who enter Shattrath in good faith.

A'dal says: You are welcome in Shattrath, Lady Liadrin. We have long awaited your arrival.

Lady Liadrin says: Thank you for allowing me to speak, A'dal. I know many of your allies despise me and my knights for our treatment of M'uru.

Lady Liadrin says: When he was given to us by 'Prince' Kael'thas, we believed his power would help lead our people into a new age.

Lady Liadrin says: I've come to realize our path was a false one. We were betrayed by the man we called our prince. In his lust for power, he sent the felblood to attack us, and spirit M'uru away to the Sunwell.

A'dal says: Both our peoples suffered greatly at the hands of Kael'thas and his agents, Lady Liadrin. Your people were not the authors of their own fate, but they will die if they do not change.

A'dal says: M'uru accepted his role in this long ago, knowing full well what would happen to him. Will you accept your own?

Lady Liadrin says: I... I don't understand. You -- and M'uru -- knew all along that this would occur?

A'dal says: It wasn't I who foretold it, but Velen of the Draenei:

A'dal says: 'Silvery moon, washed in blood,'

A'dal says: 'Led astray into the night, armed with sword of broken Light.'

A'dal says: 'Broken, then betrayed by one, standing there bestride the sun.'

A'dal says: 'At darkest hour, redemption comes, in knightly lady sworn to blood.'

Lady Liadrin says: I see it clearly now. I renounce my loyalties to House Sunstrider and its false prince.

Lady Liadrin says: I pledge the blades of my Blood Knights to the defeat of Kil'jaeden and the restoration of Silvermoon.

Lady Liadrin says: We will fight beside you, A'dal.

A'dal says: The Shattered Sun Offensive will surely benefit from the addition of your knights, Lady Liadrin.

General Tiras'alan walks over to Lady Liadrin as A'dal speaks to give her a [Tabard of the Shattered Sun], which she puts on.

A'dal says: The battle for the Sunwell is but the first step on your new path, Lady Liadrin. Shattrath is open to you and all who follow you.


http://www.wowpedia.org/Lady_Liadrin


"As high elves, several blood elves were members of the Church of the Light. Following their conversion to the sin'dorei, and utilizing less noble methods to sate their addiction, a number of the sin'dorei felt and believed that the light had abandoned them. One of the most prominent followers of this mindset was Lady Liadrin, who renounced her vows to the light due to this supposed abandonment. A disillusioned Liadrin and many of her followers would later use the light as a tool, forcibly taking it rather than relying on faith to wield it, though some blood elves remained faithful in the light's guidance and continued to wield it without resorting to these methods. With the Sunwell restored, now a mixture of both holy and arcane power, it would appear that some sin'dorei - Liadrin in particular - have converted (or converted back) to its teachings. Others, however, are not so eager to abandon their old ways."


Also...

09/28/2012 01:01 PMPosted by Ferenold
Without the Sunwell they would perish or be driven to further despair, though.


That's not how the Alliance works. The Alliance is about honor and nobility, and the Holy Light is extremely prominent in it. They're not bloodthirsty, merciless monsters. They're not "Garrosh Version 1". While yes, there's few in the Alliance who would want such a thing, but King Varian, Anduin Wrynn and General Turalyon made it very clear on what the ideals of the Alliance are. That is, they will not stoop down to methods of the Horde (aka, Garrosh) to achieve victory. They do things honorably and fairly, towards justice, not genocide. Genocidal acts, lust for war and blood-- these things were never part of true Alliance ideals, and never will be.

General Turalyon refused to kill Doomhammer, despite Lothar fell on the battlefield. Later on, he refused to kill orcish children and families on Draenor. Why? Because :

1. He's a paladin. They have a code of conduct.
2. It's cowardly to kill civilians and children.
3. Virtues of the Holy Light (which ties in with reason 1).

09/28/2012 12:56 PMPosted by Magdaleine
If you like pathological liars, yeah.


No. Lying is against the paladin's code of conduct. If Tirion was such a liar, then he would have long since become an ex-paladin.
09/28/2012 01:26 PMPosted by Kalissia
No. Lying is against the paladin's code of conduct. If Tirion was such a liar, then he would have long since become an ex-paladin.


Tirion is an ex-paladin.
Tirion is an ex-Alliance/Silver Hand.
No. Lying is against the paladin's code of conduct. If Tirion was such a liar, then he would have long since become an ex-paladin.


He was exiled, you know. For breaking a vow. Then he broke a vow to his son.


He didn't break any vow to his son. In fact, he sought to set an example to him. When Taelan did die, he vowed to reform the Order, to become a force of good in the world. The Argent Crusade became precisely just that.


"Despite Karandra's pleas to forget his honor and tell the jury what they wanted to hear, Tirion, hoping to be an example to his son, told the court exactly what had happened. Ultimately, the jury of Admiral Daelin Proudmoore, Arch-Mage Antonidas, Archbishop Alonsus Faol, and Prince Arthas Menethil decided that since Tirion had assaulted Alliance soldiers, he could no longer be a member of the Knights of the Silver Hand and was doomed to exile.

Uther the Lightbringer performed a ceremony to strip Tirion of his powers and sent him home to gather some supplies.

Desperate to prevent Eitrigg from being executed for war crimes, Tirion rode back to Stratholme, where he attacked Eitrigg's guards. Surprised, they still managed to subdue him, until a group of orcs stormed into the city. Tirion used the distraction to free Eitrigg and flee the city.

When they were in the wilds, Tirion saw that Eitrigg was near death, and did the only thing he could do; call upon the powers of the Light to heal the orc who had saved him. To his surprise, he still had the powers blessed by the Light and Eitrigg was saved."


And he told the court this :

"I will remain committed to the Alliance until my dying day. Of that, have no doubt. But I cannot disavow the oath I took. To do so would be to betray everything I am and everything we, as honorable men, hold dear."


The Argent Dawn, merged with the Knights of the Silver Hand to form the Argent Crusade, is still in line with Alliance ideals, so what Tirion said was true. He's still committed to the core of Alliance's beliefs : The Holy Light, which is a fundamental requirement to respect in order to even be in the Argent Dawn/Crusade.
09/28/2012 01:58 PMPosted by Magdaleine
He didn't break any vow to his son. In fact, he sought to set an example to him. When Taelan did die, he vowed to reform the Order, to become a force of good in the world. The Argent Crusade became precisely just that.


Wait, he didn't break a vow to his son?

Lord Tirion Fordring says: Your death will not have been in vain, Taelan. A new Order is born on this day... an Order which will dedicate itself to extinguising the evil that plagues this world. An evil that cannot hide behind politics and pleasantries.
Lord Tirion Fordring says: This I promise... This I vow...


What about the Forsaken raising the dead?
What about the Forsaken attacking Gilneas, a neutral nation?

Why hasn't he moved to stop Sylvanas yet? All you can say is politics. Broke his vow.


No. It was confirmed in the Ask CDevs thing.


Q: What is the Argent Crusade's relationship with the Forsaken, in light of Sylvanas's recent actions?

A: Although the members of the Argent Crusade still stand by the Forsaken heroes who joined them in the battle against the Scourge, Sylvanas's actions since the slaying of Arthas have deeply concerned the crusaders. They, along with certain members of the Ebon Blade, are now watching Sylvanas and the Forsaken very closely, as similarities between her and the Lich King are increasing in number by the day.


They will act in time. Remember they're already working on an anti-plague agent from Argent Apothecary Judkins.

"I once worked for the so-called "Banshee-Queen", Sylvanas, as an apothecary. I used to admire her, but something's changed within her. She's not herself anymore. I broke my vows with the Forsaken and joined the Crusade. Now, I use my knowledge of alchemy to seek a counter-plague agent. And the Plaguewood is the perfect place to do so." ~ Argent Apothecary Judkins


I'm pretty sure Blizzard will touch up on this in future patches. They already started having Argent NPCs mention the issue :

"I don't like the looks of what the Forsaken are doing here at the Bulwark. Bombs, cauldrons, needless bloodshed... none of these embody that which the Argent Crusade stands for. Furthermore, I don't like the fact that they employ mercenaries like yourself.
Nothing against you personally, <class>. It's just that you could be doing so much more for yourself. If you're interested in healing the plaguelands, rather than re-plaguing them, then report to Field Agent Kaartish at the Menders' Stead to the east."
~ Argent Officer Garush, from http://www.wowpedia.org/Quest:The_Menders%27_Stead_(Horde)

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum