Five Suns, Five Old Gods...

Story Forum
In the Lorewalker Stonestep encounter within Temple of the Jade Serpent, there is an old hero named Zao Sunseeker that shot down 4 of the 5 suns. Now it is entirely possible that this is just old and inaccurate storytelling, but it gave me some silly ideas I wanted to share with folks.

What if Azeroth really did have five suns, which frequently scorched the surface of Azeroth? And what if those five suns were the Old Gods incarnate? (the more likely explanation is that the Titans simply took down 4 suns so that Azeroth was more habitable)

First, I wanted to point out that the number of Old Gods seems to be definitively 5, now. War of the Ancients Trilogy refers to 3, but only states that there are that many actively trying to escape, not that only 3 exist. And according to a Wowpedia article (http://www.wowpedia.org/Old_gods#Number), one book in-game appears to have once stated that there were only 4...but if you read the book now, it clearly states 5 (http://www.wowhead.com/object=175725).

So that isn't the craziest idea I have to share, with Five Suns = Five Old Gods. The craziest one is regarding the two that aren't trying to escape. What if they're still involved in Azeroth's stories, but with more altruistic goals following their defeat? What if these two Old Gods, who no longer seek their own freedom, are An'she and Elune themselves?

I'm just going to leave that there, because it's a pretty hard idea to support. For one, the stories state all 5 Old Gods were chained within Azeroth. If An'she and Elune truly are the Sun & Moon, well, that isn't exactly inside Azeroth. Still...what if they aren't really the Sun & Moon?
One other thing to add is regarding Y'Shaarj, who was recently mentioned by Dave Kosak during the Best Buy Live Chat. The references to the number of Old Gods state how many were chained within Azeroth - Y'Shaarj, however, was not. This Old God was defeated by the Titans instead of chained below (and perhaps served as an example of why that was a bad idea).

That doesn't screw up the number of existing Old Gods that have been stated by Blizzard sources, but it does screw up the number of pre-existing Old Gods I tried to equate to the number of suns.
About your theory on Elune, its almost certain that Elune is a Naaru. When Velen visits Darnassus, he gets all excited on hearing the stories about Elune and tries to teach the NE priestesses ways to communicate with her. And Tyrande politely warns him not to. But an interesting theory. The five suns could be something non important too. Remember Azeroth has two moons.
Technically speaking, blizz hasn't outright stated that Elune's a naaru.
Blizz hasn't said that Elune is a Naaru, but that Velen sees a similarity between them. Hopefully, they never say that she is, because I agree with the people who believe that it would destroy alot of the Night Elf personality.

As for the Old Gods, we already know who four of them are: C'Thun, N'Zoth, Yogg-Saron, and Y'Sharrj. During the War of the Ancients, Y'Sharrj was already dead, having been killed by the Titans. This means the three trying to escape had to be C'Thun, N'Zoth, Yogg or the currently unnamed one. C'Thun was also in a near dead state at the time, so that would suggest it was the other three, but its possible he could have been one as well. Just because there was only three at the War of the Ancients, doesn't mean that one was any nicer and wasn't trying to escape, just that only three of them had the ability to manifest or attempt to escape at that time. Also, it has been suggested that the fifth Old God is somewhere in the Eastern Kingdoms, which would fit with the theme of one on each continent and one at the Maelstrom.
Blizz hasn't said that Elune is a Naaru, but that Velen sees a similarity between them. Hopefully, they never say that she is, because I agree with the people who believe that it would destroy alot of the Night Elf personality.

As for the Old Gods, we already know who four of them are: C'Thun, N'Zoth, Yogg-Saron, and Y'Sharrj. During the War of the Ancients, Y'Sharrj was already dead, having been killed by the Titans. This means the three trying to escape had to be C'Thun, N'Zoth, Yogg or the currently unnamed one. C'Thun was also in a near dead state at the time, so that would suggest it was the other three, but its possible he could have been one as well. Just because there was only three at the War of the Ancients, doesn't mean that one was any nicer and wasn't trying to escape, just that only three of them had the ability to manifest or attempt to escape at that time. Also, it has been suggested that the fifth Old God is somewhere in the Eastern Kingdoms, which would fit with the theme of one on each continent and one at the Maelstrom.


Remember, the sources that put a number on the Old Gods only state how many were locked within Azeroth. Y'Shaarj was not. This could end up being a minor technicality or error, but I'm willing to bet Y'Shaarj is not supposed to be included in that "5" figure.
Since Yash was defeated, i think its fair to say he isnt included in the imprisoned count.
09/29/2012 06:32 AMPosted by Ranhaithnaal
About your theory on Elune, its almost certain that Elune is a Naaru. When Velen visits Darnassus, he gets all excited on hearing the stories about Elune and tries to teach the NE priestesses ways to communicate with her. And Tyrande politely warns him not to. But an interesting theory. The five suns could be something non important too. Remember Azeroth has two moons.
Isn't it obvious?

The Old Gods are actually Naaru. Just Naaru that manifest and behave differently from the Naaru we know. I mean the powers that Priests use are identical to Old Gods magic! And who's to say that Naaru couldn't generate huge fleshy masses of tendrils and tentacles if they were so inclined?

Just look at all the comparisons! Weapons of Elune origin eat Souls! Naaru eat Souls too! And not to be left out, so do the Old Gods!

They're all Soul eating beings of extreme power with a Void/Light connection! A'dal, E'lune, N'zoth and C'thun don't seem too out place next to each other either!

Clearly they're all the same, you just need to connect the dots. They just have different cultural traditions surrounding how exactly they go about the whole Soul-Sucking abomination thing.
09/29/2012 08:24 AMPosted by Knalivas
Technically speaking, blizz hasn't outright stated that Elune's a naaru.


Blizzard has outright stated that Elune is "one of Azeroth's few full deities".

There may be some sort of connection between the naaru and Elune, but I don't think it's anything as simple as "Elune is just another naaru". The powers she's demonstrated are quite different from theirs.
Again, what i am saying is what is said by Blizz in the Ask CDev asnwers. I know they havent stated outright that Elune is a Naaru and i certainly did not say so. But if Velen thinks, they have some connection between them, i certainly respect it. He is the man who knows most about Naaru.

As far as her powers go, we cannot say Naaru has shown all their powers. Hell they build a warp spaceship to boot. We can only speculate.
Blizzard plans with regard to Elune and the Naaru will develop exactly like the Draenei/Eredar issue - An interesting, possibly great idea shelved because of fan outcry about "ruining" something. Ignoring the fact that MOST of the story of Warcraft is retcon.
09/29/2012 08:24 AMPosted by Knalivas
Technically speaking, blizz hasn't outright stated that Elune's a naaru.


But they have stated both that naaru are not gods, and that Elune -is- a god
09/29/2012 10:52 AMPosted by Spellestra
Technically speaking, blizz hasn't outright stated that Elune's a naaru.


But they have stated both that naaru are not gods, and that Elune -is- a god


In an encyclopedia that has been since taken down.

Also, they could be the same class of beings with just a different mindset - THe Naaru don't accept worship. Elune does. It would be enough to draw a line while still keeping with the idea that they're essentially, the same.
I'm pretty sure Zao is just a reference to the Chinese Moon Festival, which is actually coming up tomorrow!

In the ancient story, ten suns baked the Earth. The Emperor had his guards bring him the greatest hunter in China, who could make any shot, and made him a deal: If he could shoot nine of the ten suns out of the sky, the Emperor would give him a pill that would grant him immortality.

The hunter was successful and claimed his prize, but secreted it away under his pillow instead of sharing it with his wife (the Emperor advised him to pray and fast before using it himself). When his wife found out, she vengefully swallowed all of it for herself. The amount of, ahem, "medication" she imbibed caused her to fly to the moon, upon which lived extremely cute rabbits. Fearful she'd never return home, she commanded that the rabbit make her another pill.

In some variations of the legend, she is still up there waiting for the rabbit to make her a new pill so that she may return home; in others, she already returned to an uncertain fate.

At least that's how my Taiwanese friend described it to me, it's quite old and there could be some telephone effect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon_festival
I have always felt that that the three/four/five Old Gods discrepancies can be solved with a bit of creativity.

The Three were simply the three Old Gods who were working together to free themselves. These would be Yogg-Saron, N'Zoth, and the unnamed fifth one. I have a theory that the visions of Yogg-Saron specifically point to these three: the Lich King being influenced by Yogg-Saron, Neltharion's corruption being attributed to N'Zoth, and Garona's mind control being influenced by the unnamed Old God.

This works well if I take into account the new theory that there is an Old God on each continent: Yogg-Saron in Northrend, C'thun in Kalimdor, the unnamed one in Eastern Kingdoms, Y'Shaarj in Pandaria, and N'Zoth in the sunken center of old Kalimdor. I subscribe to this theory because it furthers the idea that the Old Gods are inexorably intertwined with the world. If there is an Old God per continent, destroying one would damage the continent it was apart of, much like Y'Shaarj's destruction cursed Pandaria with the Sha.

The four "imprisoned" Old Gods are the Three plus C'thun, as C'thun simply "fell" (Likely in a similar manner to how we, the players, "killed" C'thun and Yogg-Saron) and seems to have been buried under the old Titan facility of Ahn'Qiraj. The five Old Gods would include the destroyed Y'Shaarj.

As for Elune. . .again, I am almost positive that she is still a Goddess and is simply related to the Naaru due to their use of the Light. The best solution to this, in my opinion, is that Elune is to a god(dess) as the Naaru are to angels.
Y'shaarj wasn't imprisoned whole, but he was imprisoned. He broke up into various parts, like bacteria, and those parts were in fact individually imprisoned in various locations throughout Pandaria, like the Sha of Doubt under the Temple of Chi Ji.

It's kind of like... actually exactly like the story of Osiris. Set couldn't kill Osiris, but he could chop him up into five pieces and lock him up separately so he would be powerless.
Y'shaarj wasn't imprisoned whole, but he was imprisoned. He broke up into various parts, like bacteria, and those parts were in fact individually imprisoned in various locations throughout Pandaria, like the Sha of Doubt under the Temple of Chi Ji.

It's kind of like... actually exactly like the story of Osiris. Set couldn't kill Osiris, but he could chop him up into five pieces and lock him up separately so he would be powerless.


True, but the Sha were imprisoned by Shaohao, as they were manifestations of his emotions, not by the Titans. The Titans imprisoned Yogg-Saron, N'Zoth, and possibly a fifth Old God. They likely imprisoned C'thun's "dead" body in Ahn'Qiraj. But, the Titans flat out destroyed Y'Shaarj which seemingly caused Pandaria to be cursed with the Sha.
09/29/2012 12:09 PMPosted by Abal
True, but the Sha were imprisoned by Shaohao, as they were manifestations of his emotions, not by the Titans. The Titans imprisoned Yogg-Saron, N'Zoth, and possibly a fifth Old God. They likely imprisoned C'thun's "dead" body in Ahn'Qiraj. But, the Titans flat out destroyed Y'Shaarj which seemingly caused Pandaria to be cursed with the Sha.


Hmmm.

Y'shaarj was "destroyed" by the Titans.
Y'shaarj breaks up into 7 pieces.
Y'shaarj "possesses"? Shaohao
Shaohao expels them from his being.
Shaohao imprisons them beneath/around the 4 August Celestial temples, who may or may not be Titan constructs like Algalon or Thorim/gang (actually, likely are, since the 4 cardinal guardians in Chinese myths is the pantheological equivalent to the Norse/Greek pantheon the Ulduar constructs were based from).
Shaohao mysteriously turns into mists and protects Pandaria from the Sundering in the middle of what is a Titan repository of knowledge/artifacts.

Not to mention Shaohao did it with the help (albeit only moral, cheerleader help) of the Celestials.

There may be some sort of connection between the naaru and Elune, but I don't think it's anything as simple as "Elune is just another naaru". The powers she's demonstrated are quite different from theirs.


More like Loa though, who in turn are actually very similar to the August Celestials, who naturally share similarities to the Ulduar guardians.

Hmmm.

Y'shaarj was "destroyed" by the Titans.
Y'shaarj breaks up into 7 pieces.
Y'shaarj "possesses"? Shaohao
Shaohao expels them from his being.
Shaohao imprisons them beneath/around the 4 August Celestial temples, who may or may not be Titan constructs like Algalon or Thorim/gang (actually, likely are, since the 4 cardinal guardians in Chinese myths is the pantheological equivalent to the Norse/Greek pantheon the Ulduar constructs were based from).
Shaohao mysteriously turns into mists and protects Pandaria from the Sundering in the middle of what is a Titan repository of knowledge/artifacts.

Not to mention Shaohao did it with the help (albeit only moral, cheerleader help) of the Celestials.


I would say we're fairly sure that the Sha are not pieces of Y'Shaarj, but rather, a curse upon Pandaria caused by his destruction. Y'Shaarj has been utterly destroyed, and a blue recently confirmed this by saying he was "very, very, very dead". If the Sha are simply pieces of him, that would mean that he is not dead, just scattered. I maintain that the six major Sha are aspects of Shaohao brought about because of the curse placed on Pandaria by Y'Shaarj, while the seventh has yet to manifest at all because Shaohao did not have that particular emotion.

As far as the August Celestials being Titan constructs, I would have to disagree. I find it far more likely that they are related to the Ancients of Kalimdor or the Loa of the Trolls than Titan constructs and are beings birthed from nature. In fact, Chi Ji even has a birthplace south of his temple. If he had been constructed, I think "birthplace" would be a rather inaccurate term to use.
09/29/2012 12:23 PMPosted by Baalsamael
More like Loa though, who in turn are actually very similar to the August Celestials, who naturally share similarities to the Ulduar guardians.


Mayhaps (Curse you, G. R. R. Martin) the "Titanic Watchers" are exaclty like the Ancients/Loa, in that they're natural spirits born of Azeroth, but modified by the Titans to protect their creation, just like the Dragonflights are modified Protodrakes?

Then, the August Celestials could be the halfway point between natural Ancients - Like Goldrinn - and fully modified ancients - like Isiset.

EDIT: But then again, "August Celestial" seem to be a position, not something you are. The Jade Serpent is dying and she mentions something about another rising to take her place...

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum