Why we are energy starved.

Rogue
Prev 1 9 10 11 37 Next
10/05/2012 06:02 PMPosted by Boardz
What do you feel really works well for your Rogue in Mists?

The fact I can farm Snow Lily and Ghost Iron/Trillium easier than every other class.
Other than that not too much.
I've actually stopped heroic farming because of several groups kicking me for low dps...


That's a L2p issue, my DPS is usually the highest in almost every heroic pandaria dungeon.
Also another like:

Shadow Blade synergy with all 3 specs.

Now I think the CD is a bit too long, and that at least a PORTION of the shadow damage should come from special attacks as well....however there is no denying that it synergzies really well with our otehr CDs.

Sblades + Vendetta = Lots of damage from more finishers AND 100% armor pen boosted auto attacks.

Sblade + AR = Lots of evis and RB procs

Sblades + ShD = Lots o CP

This is actually a good and bad thing.

Good because each spec gets a lot of use out of the skill

Bad because it makes us feel even more hindered when our CDs arent up.
10/05/2012 05:50 PMPosted by Gyroscope
-The idea behind our poisons doing the damage as assassination (I found it interesting being a melee dot class)


This has been around for as long as ive known the assassination spec(Ive used in in 4.1-4.2), presumably longer. Daxx is asking about how its working in Mists.


Ok well take what I said and add "in Mists" at the end.
What I mean is I like our passive abilities as assassination.
10/05/2012 06:18 PMPosted by Bitocão

The fact I can farm Snow Lily and Ghost Iron/Trillium easier than every other class.
Other than that not too much.
I've actually stopped heroic farming because of several groups kicking me for low dps...


That's a L2p issue, my DPS is usually the highest in almost every heroic pandaria dungeon.

It's more of a bad luck issue. Rogues are pretty static in the range you can sit in terms of DPS, while other classes can vary wildly depending on player skill.

If a rogue happens to get into a premade group of players that play their classes well, you can pretty much reserve the bottom DPS slot for most boss fights. Some of these premade groups are also quite rude to players who hold said group back.
its a little frustrating to see my level 85 paladin doing more dps then my level 90 rogue i have decent daggers tho not great but something that has already been touched on is our damage...the high cost of 5 combo points and 35 energy for some of most powerful moves crit at most for 40k while blue/green geared warlocks warriors and mages can hit from anywhere from 75k-100k crits on pvp geared toons...we received little to no new talents instead having to chose which talents that we got to LOSE instead of new talents to be gained like all the other classes. ive been a rogue since vanilla so i think i may know at least a little bit about this class. in dragon soul before the 5.0 patch i was doing 50k dps on most bosses and god knows how much on madness....to only be able to pull 30k dps at 90 with seemingly more powerfull gear while tanks are easily pulling 60-70k in heroics is unacceptable. i am a rogue at heart but since the release of pandaria i have seriously considered making my ret pally my main. we are the only melee class who has to talent for a gap closer while other melee get theirs for free i.e. charge,deathgrip,chains,or whatever else. bottom line is rogues only purpose is to do damage and we are the weakest class at doing so. backstab is a joke...muta hits for 20k at most on a crit with everything popped...and really our level 90 talents are lackluster at best. shuriken tosss...nuff said(6k damage?) meanwhile my wifes preist level 90 halo ability crit heals for almost 200k healing and she is in almost all blues with a few greens...how are we supposed to compete with that doing 40k crits after taking the time to get our buffs up (recoup SnD rupture) then having to build 5 combo points to finally get some damage off only for it to crit for 40k just to have ANY CLASS IN THE GAME heal for 2-3 times the amount with a instant self heal.....panda came out and all it was was a big fat nerf for rogues....we had to choose between gap closer and prep while other classes got shiny new abilities and tons more damage. even the gear allocation seems to be biased...i picked up a level 85 two handed mace for my pally top end damage 12k....stronger then heroic ds gurth but couldnt find any daggers stronger then my 85 daggers untill i hit 90. again im not the best person to argue the points im a weekend warrior to my own admission but i have spent alot of money with blizzard since wow came out and i feel at present the rogue community has been ignored and disregarded. i dont know all the technical jumbo and may even be a little off on some of what ive said again im not the best person to argue the points...but if someone like me can tell there is a problem how could blizzard not be aware? the new poisons.....where do i start for one paralitic poison is subject to diminishing returns...usless in pvp when it is turning ur 5 combo point kidney shot into a 1 second stun or immune. the leeching poison has potential but is also usless at this time because it is based on how much damage a rogue does!(im guessing i dont have to explain that one lol) who is gonna waste energy on a shiv when we have so many other things to juggle? so 5 percent heal out the window as well. besides in full pvp gear i got hit by a mage for 75k what the hell is a 5% heal gonna do besides waste energy just to get hit again for 75k because i was to busy wasting energy on a shiv for a pathetic heal when i shouldve used that energy to kick/stun the next 75k incoming attack. i think i may have started complaining a bit too much now so im going to stop. as far as offering suggestions, the forum is full of great ones by better players then me and honestly it isnt MY job to make a game that I pay for more enjoyable to keep my buisness. =D
P.S. i was working late all week sorry about the late chime in.
10/05/2012 06:22 PMPosted by Zeroniusx
its a little frustrating to see my level 85 paladin doing more dps then my level 90 rogue i have decent daggers tho not great but something that has already been touched on is our damage...the high cost of 5 combo points and 35 energy for some of most powerful moves crit at most for 40k while blue/green geared warlocks warriors and mages can hit from anywhere from 75k-100k crits on pvp geared toons...we received little to no new talents instead having to chose which talents that we got to LOSE instead of new talents to be gained like all the other classes. ive been a rogue since vanilla so i think i may know at least a little bit about this class. in dragon soul before the 5.0 patch i was doing 50k dps on most bosses and god knows how much on madness....to only be able to pull 30k dps at 90 with seemingly more powerfull gear while tanks are easily pulling 60-70k in heroics is unacceptable. i am a rogue at heart but since the release of pandaria i have seriously considered making my ret pally my main. we are the only melee class who has to talent for a gap closer while other melee get theirs for free i.e. charge,deathgrip,chains,or whatever else. bottom line is rogues only purpose is to do damage and we are the weakest class at doing so. backstab is a joke...muta hits for 20k at most on a crit with everything popped...and really our level 90 talents are lackluster at best. shuriken tosss...nuff said(6k damage?) meanwhile my wifes preist level 90 halo ability crit heals for almost 200k healing and she is in almost all blues with a few greens...how are we supposed to compete with that doing 40k crits after taking the time to get our buffs up (recoup SnD rupture) then having to build 5 combo points to finally get some damage off only for it to crit for 40k just to have ANY CLASS IN THE GAME heal for 2-3 times the amount with a instant self heal.....panda came out and all it was was a big fat nerf for rogues....we had to choose between gap closer and prep while other classes got shiny new abilities and tons more damage. even the gear allocation seems to be biased...i picked up a level 85 two handed mace for my pally top end damage 12k....stronger then heroic ds gurth but couldnt find any daggers stronger then my 85 daggers untill i hit 90. again im not the best person to argue the points im a weekend warrior to my own admission but i have spent alot of money with blizzard since wow came out and i feel at present the rogue community has been ignored and disregarded. i dont know all the technical jumbo and may even be a little off on some of what ive said again im not the best person to argue the points...but if someone like me can tell there is a problem how could blizzard not be aware? the new poisons.....where do i start for one paralitic poison is subject to diminishing returns...usless in pvp when it is turning ur 5 combo point kidney shot into a 1 second stun or immune. the leeching poison has potential but is also usless at this time because it is based on how much damage a rogue does!(im guessing i dont have to explain that one lol) who is gonna waste energy on a shiv when we have so many other things to juggle? so 5 percent heal out the window as well. besides in full pvp gear i got hit by a mage for 75k what the hell is a 5% heal gonna do besides waste energy just to get hit again for 75k because i was to busy wasting energy on a shiv for a pathetic heal when i shouldve used that energy to kick/stun the next 75k incoming attack. i think i may have started complaining a bit too much now so im going to stop. as far as offering suggestions, the forum is full of great ones by better players then me and honestly it isnt MY job to make a game that I pay for more enjoyable to keep my buisness. =D


There are these things called paragraphs.....


Ok well take what I said and add "in Mists" at the end.
What I mean is I like our passive abilities as assassination.


How assassination works in mists isnt much different than how it worked in cataclysm.

The fact that it focuses on poison and bleed damage is exactly the same.


-.-
Thank you. I know. Stay on topic please.
10/05/2012 05:20 PMPosted by Daxxarri
What do you feel really works well for your Rogue in Mists?


The new poison mechanic is nice. Aside from Crippling Poison, Shiv with Mind-Numbing, Leeching, and Paralytic is all awesome.

Ability wise, I'm not sure how I feel about Shadow Blades. It's cool and we finally have a real baseline offensive CD.
Talent wise, Subterfuge is so awesome. I Love it. Dirty Tricks is pretty cool. Shuriken Toss is amazing for PVP, and Anticipation is amazing for PVE.
Although I'm not a big fan of paralytic poison, I thought it was a neat concept to have some kind of new poisons in our tree. It's just too bad that dirty tricks is more valuable for PvP.
  • What do you feel really works well for your Rogue in Mists?


To be Quite honest i never knew a Potato was a Class to pick in the Character Class list (AKA Rogues) :|

On a Serious note, i honestly did not think the nerf to rogues would be this bad.
- Refer to this Thread for a list of rogue nerfs (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6759327218) when i came across this thread i was absolutely shocked at how bad the nerf was

when i got to 90 and got fully geared, i was still getting rolled by every other melee class.
seems as though i cant pull enough damage (ive discussed about rogues with other Gladiator rogues) so my rotations for "burst" was just fine, Ive contemplated plenty of times to either Re-roll another class or just quit playing.
10/05/2012 05:20 PMPosted by Daxxarri
What do you feel really works well for your Rogue in Mists?


Not a lot, really, but I'll try and be positive:

The poison changes are good.

The adrenaline rush glyph is fun.

I can dual wield slow weapons. I love that.

Crimson tempest looks pretty, though its damage seems pretty anemic.

Using revealing strike at the beginning feels more logical.

I still like our core resource mechanics, though the constant energy starvation is sucking a lot of the fun out of that.

I can shadowstep as combat. That's cool.

Killing spree is still my favourite ability in the game.

That's about it, really. There are some things that are kind of nice, or at least have potential. I have mixed feelings on leeching poison. On the one hand, I can solo four to five mobs at once and still end the fight with 50-75% HP, but on the other hand... I can solo four to five mobs at once and still end the fight with 50-75% HP.

Once upon a time, soloing multiple enemies on a rogue was quite difficult, and questing required a certain degree of strategy as a result. Now, I feel like I'm wasting my time if I'm ever fighting less than two or three mobs at once. And leeching poison is largely passive (aside from the shiv effect, which I do like), so it's not even like I feel awesome for being able to defeat so many enemies. I'm not skilled; I'm just abusing an OP ability.

Between leeching and how much of our damage is from passive sources, I feel like soloing as a rogue (which used to be one of my favourite things to do) is now, "round up two enemies, right click, turn on blade flurry, go make a sandwich, and come back when they're dead."

The class just doesn't feel active anymore, which used to be its main appeal.

Sorry, I meant this to be a positive post.
Speaking of follow-up questions:

  • What do you feel really works well for your Rogue in Mists?


This feels a little too open ended. Do you mean 'well' as in I feel like I'm good at something, or it's a good trait for for rogues? Or do you mean 'well' as in it's not a mechanic that's holding me back? Is it supposed to be a mechanic that's new to us in Mists?

The only immediate response that should fit every interpretation is that I can Shadowstep as Combat and Assassination now, and that it works on friendly targets.

That's really it, with every passing day I see less and less that rogues are actually good at. Even BF feels weak, and that one mechanic is the PvE saving grace for this class.
It's a little frustrating to see my level 85 paladin doing more dps then my level 90 rogue. I have decent daggers though not great, but something that has already been touched on is our damage...the high cost, 5 combo points and 35 energy moves crit at most for 40k, while blue/green geared warlocks, warriors, and mages can hit from anywhere from 75k-100k crits on pvp geared toons...

We received little to no new talents instead having to chose which talents that we got to LOSE instead of new talents to be gained like all the other classes. I've been a rogue since vanilla so i think i may know at least a little bit about this class. In dragon soul before the 5.0 patch i was doing 50k dps on most bosses and god knows how much on madness....to only be able to pull 30k dps at 90 with seemingly more powerful gear while tanks are easily pulling 60-70k in heroics is unacceptable.

I am a rogue at heart but since the release of pandaria i have seriously considered making my ret pally my main. We are the only melee class who has to talent for a gap closer while other melee get theirs for free; i.e. charge, deathgrip, chains, etc. bottom line is rogues only purpose is to do damage and we are the weakest class at doing so. Backstab is a joke... Mut hits for 20k at most on a crit with everything popped.

Really, our level 90 talents are lackluster at best. Shuriken tosss...nuff said(6k damage?) meanwhile my wife's priest level 90 halo ability crit heals for almost 200k healing and she is in almost all blues with a few greens...how are we supposed to compete with that doing 40k crits after taking the time to get our buffs up (recup, SnD, rupture), then having to build 5 combo points to finally get some damage off, only for it to crit for 40k, just to have ANY CLASS IN THE GAME heal for 2-3 times the amount with a instant self heal.

Panda came out and all it was was a big fat nerf for rogues. We had to choose between gap closer and prep while other classes got shiny new abilities and tons more damage. even the gear allocation seems to be biased. I picked up a level 85 two handed mace for my pally top end damage 12k; stronger then heroic ds gurth, but couldn't find any daggers stronger then my 85 daggers until i hit 90. Again I'm not the best person to argue the points; I'm a weekend warrior to my own admission but i have spent a lot of money with blizzard since wow came out and i feel at present the rogue community has been ignored and disregarded. I don't know all the technical jumbo and may even be a little off on some of what I've said.

Again, I'm not the best person to argue the points...but if someone like me can tell there is a problem how could blizzard not be aware? the new poisons, where do I start? For one paralytic poison is subject to diminishing returns. Useless in pvp when it is turning your 5 combo point kidney shot into a 1 second stun or immune. Leeching poison has potential but is also useless at this time because it is based on how much damage a rogue does!(I'm guessing i don't have to explain that one lol). Who is gonna waste energy on a shiv when we have so many other things to juggle? So a 5 percent heal goes out the window as well. Besides, in full pvp gear i got hit by a mage for 75k. What the hell is a 5% heal gonna do besides waste energy just to get hit again for 75k because I was to busy wasting energy on a shiv for a pathetic heal when i should have used that energy to kick/stun the next 75k incoming attack.

I think i may have started complaining a bit too much now so I'm going to stop. as far as offering suggestions, the forum is full of great ones by better players then me and honestly it isn't MY job to make a game that I pay for more enjoyable to keep my business. =D


OK, I'm sorry, but it just WAS NOT READABLE. Fixed.
jeez sorry ill do better next time lol
ty my best subjects were math and science lol=D
Just for the record, I'm still monitoring this thread.

Note: Please don't be vulgar, hyperbolic, draw the discussion off-topic, violate the forum code of conduct, or otherwise disrupt this potentially very constructive thread. These things will make me sad. I do not want to be sad. None of us want to be sad. No sads.

Speaking of follow-up questions:

  • What do you feel really works well for your Rogue in Mists?

I like how all three of our specs are PvE-viable for single-target and AoE.
I like having shadowstep and fleet footed all the time.
I like being able to wield slow/slow as combat with a minor DPS loss.

            Although, if combat had a passive ability that made poisons PPM, it'd have no DPS loss at all...

                      /begs

I like the new synergy between shiv and poisons, even though I don't get to use it much in PvE.
I like swiftblade's cunning.
I like anticipation, and dirty tricks for soloing rares.

And I really like the glyph of disguise.
I would like to see baseline Prep and Slice and dice+ Recup into one buff.. Less uptime on targets and having to use that much time to "prep" things up on a target with rupture too is too much for pvp.
Dangs, I'm so late to this party. Sin Rogue here, I'll start with:

10/05/2012 05:20 PMPosted by Daxxarri
  • What do you feel really works well for your Rogue in Mists?
1a. I love the new Poison system and have been waiting for bagless poisons since forever (and on that note, THANK YOU for Deadly Poison not having to stack anymore).
1b. Worth mentioning is the new Shiv. I really like super Non-Lethals but I'm mixed on the cooldown of Shiv, therefore not having on-demand snare (say chasing a rapidly shifting Druid). I had a quick, unmeditated thought of Non-Lethal Poisons only able to be applied via Shiv (no cooldown, no RNG on Non-Lethals). Where would the Potent Non-Lethals go? I dunno, I haven't thought about it.

2. 75% chance for Venomous Wounds is a step in the right direction. More often than not, it will proc off of almost every tick and the rotation becomes very fluid. Not Anywhere near GCD capped but for the most part, I am able to use core abilities when they are available.
However, the "bad luck" problem persists where I can go 5 ticks with no proc. 10 seconds of base regen makes me feel like I have some kind of hangover.

[edit]:
3. Blindside and Dispatch: I love it! Sin having a cheap execute instead of trying to use the heavily taxing Mutilate in the execute phase is a godsend. Blindside procs mix up the rotation in a good way and is the only kind of RNG that I would call "fun". Perhaps Dispatch (free or not) should be allowed a 2x crit chance multiplier?
/[edit]:

That's kind of ..it. I seem to have more problems to address than "pros". Overall, I'm happy and will keep on keepin' on with this Rogue but I would love to see core issues addressed (many of which have been eloquently stated in this thread and in many before it).

10/05/2012 02:28 PMPosted by Rfeann
There's an impressive amount of uniformity in a lot of the lists on this page. Here's my question about the CD issue: Are you willing to trade off shorter CDs if it means they'll be weaker as a result?
I don't think this question got enough love. My answer is Yes! Short enough to be used many times in a fight but powerful enough to warrant its use in the first place (while not being overly powered). Pushing buttons more often than once every 3 minutes is something I would describe as "fun". I love the active mitigation model that Brewmaster is employing. It could use more tweaks but overall, I love the idea.

10/05/2012 03:12 PMPosted by Rfeann
But maybe we should specific which cooldowns we're talking about:
Solely defensive cooldowns. Like you said, Offensives like AR are fine because they can be reduced. Shadow Dance and Vendetta have relatively short cooldowns (with Vendetta lasting quite a while).

I'd take the Feint change into consideration. It is a spammable mitigation tool that can be fun to use and combined with Elusiveness, it becomes an even more powerful tool. Comare this to Evasion where you press it, pray to the RNG Gods that you won't be hit for the next 15-20 seconds, and wait... 3 minutes before you can press it again.

Hi, Daxx! Thanks for stopping by :D
If I'd known you were coming, I would have made cookies er something.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum