Why we are energy starved.

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10/05/2012 05:20 PMPosted by Daxxarri
What do you feel really works well for your Rogue in Mists?

I like energetic recovery being on slice and dice as opposed to recuperate, the fact that gouge/shiv doesn't give combo points is very nice for controlling multiple targets without losing your points. Garrote not having a positional anymore and the much needed fix to the avoidance issues on blind are pretty good for the class.

I particularly love elusiveness in terms of it promoting positive awareness when feinting a swap to yourself, but it doesn't make enough of a damage difference with how much burst damage is in the game from things like BM hunters, warrior cooldown stacking (Recklessness/avatar/banner/on use trinket) and frost bomb damage etc. Though, that's more at fault with the state of damage currently, than -30% not being enough mitigation which it certainly is a very powerful talent (especially with the feint glyph).

Though shiv being dodge/parry-able and the long downtime between cooldowns really hurt the class in terms of mobility and extended survivability in terms of PvP (The 60 tier is a big example of where the class needs adjusting the most).

Most feedback from other rogues I know and myself usually leans toward removing prep/lowering cooldowns (or making a nerfed prep baseline consisting of just disarm/vanish/sprint) and putting a different mobility talent in it's place like a grappling hook deathgrip mechanic etc. or

Another good choice would be giving step baseline and make the 60 tier have 2 ways to improve step versus burst of speed,(replaces step) as it would make the class a lot more enjoyable to play.

The 90 tier could use a decent amount of flavor reworking as well. In terms of how Shuriken toss is the main way to go in PvP due to it being a ranged slow provider (seeing as throw no longer applies poisons and deadly throw is a talent), versatility is plagued by the fact that redirect is on the global cooldown and anticipation usually just comes off as a PvE talent.
I really like the new poisons systems and being able to get Shadowstep as other specs than sub. I feel like there could be more poisons because there isn't a lot of choice right now but I like this system better than before.

I think Shuriken Toss should be baseline. Versatility and Anticipation are just very useful and while I'd like to have Shuriken Toss.... being able to do a ranged attack during a few down periods just isn't worth giving up Anticipation.

It feels like Anticipation is a great ability when I'm dpsing a guy for awhile and building up lots of extra combo points is good, yet in fights with lots of add switching Versatility would be good, since I'm not so focused on building tons of CP's on one guy, I'm more focused on switching attention quickly which no cooldown Redirects helps a lot. So Versatility and Anticipation in the same tier make a lot of sense. But Shuriken Toss? An ability so I can keep up some very meager dps for the maybe 10 seconds during raid fights that I'm not close enough to hit something? That feels like something that should just be around when I need it but is not going to be used that much. Thus is not worth actually choosing over another good ability.

I really think Shuriken Toss is a cool ability but doesn't make sense in the talent trees where it is. If anything I would think it would be an alternative to Shadowstep, since both are responses to something being too far away.

Also, Shadow Blades. While I think this is a really cool idea for a cooldown... I'm not sure I really like what having it has done to my overall damage. As a Combat Rogue, I already have Killing Spree and Adrenaline Rush. Adding this puts a lot of cooldown power in my hands. I feel like I start off a fight pressing Killing Spree, and then hitting Shadow Blades and Adrenaline Rush together. And I do mega damage. But then the effects end.... and I do pretty mediocre damage until they come up again. This doesn't feel good. My damage without a cooldown feels bad. Also, since Shadow Blades is on the same cooldown timer as Adrenaline Rush (even affected by Restless Blades), you pretty much just want to macro them together and use them as one cooldown. So it doesn't even feel like its own ability. And since it's based on auto attacks, its best to take advantage of its synergy and stack it with Adrenaline Rushes attack speed bonus or even Killing Sprees bonus to auto attack damage. Meaning it's optimal to pop all your cooldowns together, leaving you with nothing for awhile.

I really don't like that. I feel weak outside of my cooldowns.
What's do I like about rogues?
-Gouge not generating a combo point, and Dirty Tricks removing its energy cost
-Leeching poison
-Garrote postional req removed
-Dispatch replacing backstab
-Shadow Blades
-new expose armor + glyph

What don't I like about rogues?
-Shadow dance uses stealth hotbar bar, conditional macros wont solve my problems if I already use macros on half the buttons. Wildly unnecessary and unjustified change
-Level 60 talent choices. Prep needs to be baseline and it's talent spot replaced with something else
-new shiv being able to be dodged and parried
-smoke bomb removed from prep
-hemo removed from sanguinary vein
#3 I love the idea of having something like Eviscerate refresh the duration of S&D for Combat rogues, in the same way that finishers refresh it for Assassination...That would smooth out our rotations a bit and give us something worthwhile to do with energy and CPs at the moment besides just hoping our white swings do the job for us...Truthfully though this is being a bit greedy...If we just had the improved S&D back I could live with the S&D timers...

#4 Revert the Glyph of Blade Flurry back to what it used to be...I haven't talked to a single Rogue around since the changes that care if their utility poison procs more often from it...We all want our energy regen and that old glyph was a huge help to us...

The reason why I stopped playing Combat at the end of Cata was because of these two changes. I switched between Assassination and Combat depending on my mood, but I've dropped Combat entirely in Mists because of this and how entirely cool down dependant it is. Sub is much more fun because I generate combo points so quickly, whereas with Combat I build them so slowly that I barely feel it's worth it. My single target DPS is just stupidly low unless I'm using killing spree or AR/SB. Even then I barely push at top what I can pull at base in Assassination.

Also, Shadow Blades. While I think this is a really cool idea for a cooldown... I'm not sure I really like what having it has done to my overall damage. As a Combat Rogue, I already have Killing Spree and Adrenaline Rush. Adding this puts a lot of cooldown power in my hands. I feel like I start off a fight pressing Killing Spree, and then hitting Shadow Blades and Adrenaline Rush together. And I do mega damage. But then the effects end.... and I do pretty mediocre damage until they come up again. This doesn't feel good. My damage without a cooldown feels bad. Also, since Shadow Blades is on the same cooldown timer as Adrenaline Rush (even affected by Restless Blades), you pretty much just want to macro them together and use them as one cooldown. So it doesn't even feel like its own ability. And since it's based on auto attacks, its best to take advantage of its synergy and stack it with Adrenaline Rushes attack speed bonus or even Killing Sprees bonus to auto attack damage. Meaning it's optimal to pop all your cooldowns together, leaving you with nothing for awhile.

THIS. I feel the same way in Assassination, but with Vendetta (and the cool downs don't even stack well). I pull mediocre DPS/am at the bottom of recount, pop my cool downs and then reach the top, before dropping back to second by the end of the fight. This is a huge issue if I accidentally pop them at the wrong time; I lose a ridiculous chunk of my DPS.

Sub is consistent, at least, when I play it, and energy regen (as I previously stated) is bearable. It's just not always convenient to be behind boss targets with current mechanics and so DPS is compromised there, too (sorry, felt I was ranting too much about the other two specs when they all have issues).
10/05/2012 06:57 AMPosted by Cloake
As a former deathklnight which uses an inverse resource system very similar to rogues, I must say that the double dipping of rogue finishers costing CPs and energy needs to be removed.

yes ... Yes .. YES! I couldn't agree with you more on this one. Ironically I was just telling my best friend this last night. I have a level 85 rogue, and it's very frustrating to keep up energy (even with snd up) it also hurts your DPS by a lot. This toon is a tank and can do more than double the dps of my rogue (with ALL my rogues CD's up) while tanking. It's very frustrating especially in PvE.. It's gotten to the point now where I think I'm just going to park her at 85, and forget about her and play another class. Just use her for PvP at best.
I feel that if abilities with combo points didn't cost energy, this wouldn't be an issue. I know it would be very frustrating if they added runic power cost to all my abilities, and runes to the ones that don't have them already (death coil, rune strike, etc)

Just my two cents.. Now, if you'll excuse me while I pick up my Q's that I dropped on this thread.. :P
The funny thing about the idea of finishers is that the functionality is kind of already there with Relentless Strikes. Honestly maybe they should just go ahead and make finishers fully free.
I was actually a bit shocked to see Daxx here in the forums, and I wish I had put a bit more constructive thought into what has me so frustrated with this class this reset. Anyway, here's the off-the-top-of-my-head thoughts:

1) Ramp-up time and Buff/Debuff Management
I remember you made a point of trying to reduce Rogue ramp-up time for MoP. For example, Deadly Poisons were reduced from 5 stacks to 1. However, we now have so many finishers to juggle, the ramp up time feels longer (and more forced, since it's active, not passive).

For example, both Slice and Dice and Rupture are considered "must haves" for Subt Rogues (I haven't tried Combat or Assassination this xpac, so I'm only referencing Subt in this post). Rupture for the 20% damage buff, and Slice and Dice for the large boost to auto-attack damage and extra 8 energy every couple seconds.

I have gone out of my way to write some addons to be able to warn me every time SnD and Rupture are about to drop so that I can keep them up as close to 100% as possible. Unfortunately, it feels like I'm spending nearly half of my time on this. And that's without dealing with other players that stun you, run away, etc, causing these abilities to drop off after very little effective damage.

2) Burst Damage
For PvP, the most obvious way to kill somebody is burst. This was already true in Cata, as healers could quickly bring someone back up to 100%, but it's even more true now in MoP as seemingly every class has CC and escape abilities (like Priest and Druid "vanish").

I'm not in full PvP gear yet, but I have noticed that some classes have substantially more burst than others. For example, Warriors have been able to consistently take away 75-100% of my life in a single 3 second stun, and have hit me for well over 100k with seemingly little to no ramp-up time. Boomkins have run around spamming Starfire? (not quite sure) and dropping me in a couple seconds. And then of course there's also Hunters and Mages.

For Rogues, this kind of burst is completely unheard of. The closest we have is Shadow Blades, which is on a 3 minute cooldown. And even with Shadow Blades, Slice and Dice up and running, and a Rupture/Garrote on my target, I'm not equaling the same kind of burst some of those other classes are doing.

This used to be a Rogue's main staple (very large crits rates, and hard hitting combo point generating abilities like Ambush). Now, our hardest hitting ability is Eviscerate, which itself requires 5 combo points, on top of Rupture and Slice and Dice (I can open with Garrote to reduce the need for Rupture, but we don't really have that "surprise" opening damage any more, and as soon as I get CC'ed, I'll need to revert back to Rupture).

3) Cooldowns
I'm really, noticeably feeling the longer cooldowns this xpac. It's funny, I played since Vanilla day 1, so I remember the 5 min cooldowns (and 6 min AR), and I used to complain about those, but for some reason bumping our CDs up from 2 to 3 min feels worse. Maybe I got used to the shorter cooldowns, or maybe the game is a bit faster now, not sure.

Even against NPCs, the lack of a more consistent escape (longer cooldowns and no Prep), has made me re-think attacking a mob or forced me to wait in stealth while I healed up and my Vanish came off CD. The situation is much worse in PvP.

I'm not sure about balance, but I'd really love to see more CDs closer to 1 min. I agree with a previous poster who said they'd take weaker CDs that were shorter.
Things that work well:
- The poison changes
- Changes to weapon usage (speed, availability and increased selection)

Things that did not work so well:
- Devs took talents we had for years and just carried them over; zero thought put into them. What is the points of being able to choose talents when we end up hating the ones we cannot have? (see lvl 60 choices) Carrying what we used to have over does not make us love it more, it makes us hate what we no longer have. Especially since the old weakness they covered up only become more apparent with our choices.
- None of the talents are exciting when we use them, too many passive. The one talents we were eager to keep were removed and put on a pvp set because *gasp* you thought we would use it as a talent. Hint: Just because we would choose it 99/100 times does not mean it was OP, it means the other choices that tier sucked or could not be used in pve.
- Class identity is becoming more blurred, homogenization creep seems endemic to all pure dps classes
Edit: Okay...holy cow...didn't even realise it'd been an hour and I produced this colossus. I'll throw in a TL;DR in the next post and step away from the keyboard (even though I do have more to say).

10/05/2012 01:48 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Still, we want every class to feel fun and satisfying to play, and I wanted to drop by and find out some specifics regarding why you guys are sad.

Speaking of follow-up questions:

What do you feel really works well for your Rogue in Mists?

Sup Daxxari. I'll try answer both at the same time:


The main reason why I haven't been focusing on PvE content, and probably won't be for the foreseeable future. As it stands, a majority of my damage is coming from auto attacks. This doesn't feel rewarding at all to play. At all.

On a dummy white damage comprised 30% of my damage, followed by a disappointing 18% from backstab followed by 17% from deadly poison(dot+proc).

This really takes away from a lot of the enjoyment of playing a rogue. Gone are our crit modifiers, which felt cool when big crits hit your screen. Now it feels as if, I could just be on auto-pilot and get a free ride for approximately 70% of my DPS as long as I mash my backstab key. As long as I'm pressed up against my target, I've got a guarenteed ~ 50% of my dps coming just from auto-attacking.

Furthermore our dps cooldowns across all 3 specs, with the exception of shadowblades...are the same. We weren't given any cool new toys to mess around with(or any new rotation), just another long cool down (which don't get me wrong is a nice ability) that feels out of place as a 3 minute CD considering what it does.

Adding to this, but from a PvP perspective as well and not just within a raiding environment, this is really frustrating to play as when paired with our mobility. I’ll touch on this point later.


Feint//Elusiveness (which I feel is mandatory at times) and it's combination with longer class CD's - it's an interesting change. On the positive side, it feels like feint requires more thought in it's use, as technically it's a DPS loss but if used correctly can mitigate a large quantity of damage.
However I do feel that we are forced to constantly maintain this, and that if we fail to use feint before we're ‘swapped to’ (as a PvPer would say it, especially if we’re caught in a stunlock) we get punished for quite severely.

I'm not sure if this is just a symptom of damage across the board being too high from multiple sources (or classes in an arena setting), or this is the result of the loss of passive survivability such as the 20% increased healing from quickening or improved recuperate, but it's come to the point where I feel gimped by not choosing preparation as once cloak/evasion and vanish are forced out of me, I'm a sitting duck for a good 3 minutes.

In a raiding environment, I won’t be able to ‘bypass’ some of the mechanics because my defensives are on CD (as an example, say cloaking a specific mechanic). In an arena match, if I don't play defensively, and am caught in a mildly bad spot, I'm at risk of being torn to pieces.

With the shift away from passive to active longevity, I feel that we've become even more dependent on our cooldowns for survival. This becomes an issue when across the board, as a lot of our cooldowns have increased. This also becomes an issue when you consider that all of our survivability cooldowns have opportunity costs associated to them.


As previously mentioned, a lot of our survivability cool have opportunity costs associated with them. As an example, regarding to vanish:

Should I vanish to escape imminent doom, should I vanish to maintain dps by freeing myself of these snares/roots, should I vanish to reapply find weakness as a DPS cooldown or should I vanish to sap...say a healer trying to drink or punish somebody for not trinketing my blind in an arena match?

There used to be pro's and con's to using vanish in some of the mentioned scenario's above. Each with its own opportunity cost. The same could have been said for a lot of the abilities in our arsenal, such as shadow dance(cc multiple targets - with saps and cheapshots - or do damage), cloak(go offensive at the cost of being vunerable later) etc.

Where it stands now, moving from cata to MoP we've lost a lot of our utility through the loss of survivability and increased cooldowns. We no longer have any choices in how we play, how we CC and how we DPS.

We are forced to hold onto our cooldowns for as long as we can. At the chance that if we do use them for utility, we can be gibbed instantly down the road. This really detracts from the feeling of wise cool-down management (or ‘outplaying’ your opponents).

As a result, I feel like I’ve got less options than ever when it comes to playing my rogue. I feel as if the skill-cap has been dropped significantly.


This has more consequences in a PvP environment and I’m not going to write much here, as I’ve already written a lot but to keep it short...we have no mobility. If I spec preparation, I only have sprint (a one minute cooldown which is affected by snares and roots). I need those two vanishes, those two cloaks to stay alive or else I’ll probably be dead.

As a result, and getting to my point earlier about auto attacks being a significant source of my damage, I feel as if I do little to no damage at all because I’m constantly slowed and rooted. I find it difficult to maintain uptime on a target, especially with the crippling poison nerf, and as a result lose 50% of my damage...and quite frankly when I reach my target I won’t be making up for lost time as I have to wait for my auto-attacks to kick in.

Speccing shadowstep is of no relief either as, other classes seem to have better mobility cool-downs combined with their ability to snare us and root us better than we can prevent them or escape them.
TL;DR: Moving from Cataclysm to MoP, I’ve lost more tools than I’ve gained. The tools that I have gained feel as if they are substitutions to 'fill in the gaps' of what I lost in the 85-90 transition. I remember reading a cute quote somewhere, and it was along the lines of

"Other classes got cool new abilities, had their game-play made more fluid and streamlined. I had to choose what I wanted to keep."

I don't feel like a rogue anymore. I don't feel like a class that was all about opportunity costs. I feel as if I'm still leveling..a mere watered down version of myself that is missing a lot of the cool tools I used to have with a significantly lower skill cap.

Edit: I could go on, but I don't want to bore anybody else to death in what is my opinion (which may differ from what others have to say). Don't get me wrong, there are some cool changes. I'm in love with the level 75 tier talent choices as an example, but the one above it and below it just...BLEH!
Daxx gave us a hope, but now it's almost gone. Blizzard could come here and say "Hey we're gonna fix rogues soon / we're not doing any major changes" So we know what's going on.
10/07/2012 03:46 AMPosted by Ålenå
Not sure if this has been said or not yet but welcome to how hunters felt for pretty much the entire cata expansion..

Except kfc (warrior,hunter, healer) was the top comp in the game in 4.0.6 + s11 thug cleave was arguably both the top ladder (could beat rls, didn't lose to trip dps and it beat rmp pretty easily) and tournament play (could survive ret dk disc and it was really good at killing shamans which went a long way against rls') comp of that season.

Sorry, you don't know how to fully rotate pet sacrifices and freedoms or how to stop people from eating your traps. Not that truly matters if you knew how to properly do damage.

Rogues were definitely strong in s11, but if you thought hunters were bad it was obviously the player in that case.

Regardless, I don't see why you would post something like that and derail the thread.
:D I rerolled my glad rogue to Spriest. Ive played rogue since vanilla at high levels, and DO NOT enjoy having to reroll (5 rogue glad titles among my accounts), but this season is unplayable. Im okay with not having BM burst or destro survivability but the class feels slow, predictatable, and non-rewarding. My true burst is a 3 min CD that is easily cc'd. We have no second trinket like many pure DPS, and were easily kited due to blizz's love/hate relationship with prep, They wont remove it and balance our Cds as if we had it, but made it a lackluster choice by nerfing the smokebomb renewal and placing step on the same tree.

What they need to do is remove the energy cost of finishers (relentless strikes already does this to an extent, but if u dont 5 cp, its RNG energy refund, and u already ave to have energy to do a finisher). This will fix a bit of the laggy and slow play without a huge increase on burst, and no real increase on sustained damage. They need to remove prep from the game, and give Sstep as a baseline.Once prep is removed, they can lower some of the class cds that they raided because of prep being allowed with all specs. Then they should Add some sort of get out of CC ability and a mobility CD to that tree, and then take BoS and either combind the 2 effects or lower the energy cost.

After these changes, I would see how rogues are doing, the damage wouldnt be very much higher, but uptime would be improved, and we wouldnt feel as dependant on Cds because they would be shorter.

Currently at the 2 minute mark were an unsupported class, if being focused or focusing, the other teams Cds are coming up, their trinkets are back up, and they can reverse pressure/counter pressure. But with 3 min cds on vanish/blind/Sblades/evasion/smokebomb. I cant return any pressure or be defensive until they have either won or put me far enough behind that I cannot bring our team back without being carried by my BM hunter parter's insane damage. of the games ive played so far, we win a lot of the early games when i slam cds so fast that Im actually out of cds 30 seconds in, but if the game goes over 2 minutes, recovery becomes a slow and painful process. That usually ends in a backpeddling BM hunter killing me with AI controlled stampeding pets

Thats all I have for now.
10/05/2012 01:19 PMPosted by Daxxarri
One should always be careful when comparing how one class's abilities work versus another to take into account all the variables.

i'm not sure i agree with this considering how homogenized the game has become
Hi, I'm Luna. I raid with Refined, currently ranked #14 worldwide for 25 man raiding. In previous tiers I have held multiple rank 1, top ten, and 95th percentile rankings throughout the world for rogues in multiple encounters. I feel like I can give a good overview on general class problems and then spec specific problems for my two specs, Assassination and Combat.

General class overview:

1. First and foremost, our single target damage across the board is low. At our best we are mid pack, at our worst we are barely above the non-vengeance tank. This is the single biggest problem with the class, everything else is minor in relation to simply being a viable class to bring to a raid. I believe that right now I am a liability to my raid because I am not able to compete with half of the other classes. I have had the thought before that, if I was my raid leader, I would be benching both myself and the other rogue who is part of our raiding core for just about any other class.


2. I feel like Blade Flurry should be a rogue ability for all specs, and not just limited to Combat. The ability cannot be balanced to be equal to the other two specs because it is so powerful; if you are a competitive raider and there is a cleave opportunity, you will ALWAYS be forced to spec Combat. Maybe it would require a rebalancing of some sort for the entire class, but if there is ever to truly be a choice in what spec we play for raiding Blade Flurry must be a class wide ability or be removed.

It really sucks that right now, I want to try PVPing are sub more often but I can't because I need to keep a Combat spec for raiding and for doing dailies. Combat doesn't suffer from energy regeneration problems right now as much as Assassination does, so its ability to mow down similarly levelled mobs with Blade Flurry and cooldowns make it far superior to both other specs for general PVE and dungeons.


3. Energy regeneration for Sub and Assassination are not good, and it actually makes me feel frustrated to play the specs when I am literally waiting 5 seconds between attacks. I have more experience with Assassination than Sub currently, and I am sure that the developer team is aware that Assassination is regarded as the highest single target DPS spec right now. I am not sure that they are aware of how long we're waiting between combo builders and finishers as either spec. It doesn't feel like the finishers are exciting enough in terms of damage or buildup; having to wait too long between reaching 5 combo points and using Envenom doesn't feel rewarding, it feels like an intermediary step between building combo points again.


4. I don't feel like there is enough difference between the specs in terms of playstyle. All of the specs play the exact same, where we use a generic combo point builder, get to 5 combo points, and use a finisher that either stuns or does damage.

I realize that there is a similiarity in how each damage spec plays for each class, but it is obvious when you watch a mage what spec he is playing. They apply their damage and control in different ways and that's what makes the class so versatile and different depending on what spec you're playing. If you watch a rogue in PVE or PVP he is doing the exact same thing no matter what spec he is, because our class abilities which generate combo points literally have no other effect than to lead to finishers.

Mutilate, Dispatch, Sinister Strike, Hemo and Backstab are literally interchangeable. I feel that the ONLY difference in the way that the specs play differently and deal damage are as follows:

Assassination: Slow ramp up, must use 2 finishers to start dealing noticable damage.
Combat: Can cleave.
Subtlety: Must be behind the target to use your best combo point builder.

Outside of those three very subtle differences in playstyle, a rogue can literally do the exact same thing as any spec and there will be no difference in the way that your gameplay is altered.


5. Our talent tree choices are not fun. When I play my alt Paladin, DK, Priest or Mage, I look at their talent trees and feel like the talent overhaul has added options and gameplay to each talent tier.

When I look at my rogues talents, I see a choice between two or three options that I innately had before. I feel like the talent overhaul for rogues is a complete failure because it did not add significant gameplay differences (outside of Prep/Step) depending on what choice you had made for each talent, it literally took away your previous choices and made you choose between them. We did not get any viable new or fun abilities or functionality out of the overhaul other than Anticipation.

Shuriken Toss is not a good talent, I honestly do not see myself ever taking it because our ranged damage with it is still so lackluster that it can't make up for the fact that we are not able to use our main damage dealing or utility abilities to our target.

Versatility seems like a band aid to the rogue class. It does not feel worthy of a level 90 talent to me at all, especially in the face of Anticipation which completely changes the way multiple specs operate. I know the developers have said that they believe that the combo point transfer limitations are a part of the "spice" of playing a rogue, but none of my other characters have their resources drained for switching targets. I wholeheartedly believe that this talent should be baseline for the class.



1. The energy regeneration for the spec right now is terrible. It's always been slow at the start of expansions, but it is especially bad right now. Waiting so long between using attacks is not fun.


2. Auto attack damage and poison damage is making up too large of a total percentage of our damage. On our kill of Fend the Accursed, which is very close to a Patchwerk fight, auto attacks and poisons alone did about 60% of my total damage by themselves. There is timing involved in using finishers and that adds a layer of complexity and a way to differentiate between player skills, but there isn't much difference between a good, great or amazing Assassination rogue when only 40% of your damage can be changed by a player's involvement at all.


3. Due to the above, Mastery will remain far and away the best secondary stat for Assassination as long as so much of our damage comes from automatically applied damage. Haste and crit will never begin to approach the power of Mastery for this spec, and moreso than before, future gearing in raids will revolve around which pieces have Mastery innately and which do not. Pieces without Mastery will not be viable for the spec and we may be forced to use older gear.



1. The most major complaint I have about Combat is that its single target damage in raiding scenarios is not up to par. If not for the existence of Blade Flurry, the damage would be so subpar compared to Assassination and Subtlety that we would not spec it at all for raids.


2. The spec is way, way too dependant on cooldowns. Someone in this thread put it so succinctly earlier that I have to repeat; it feels amazing when all of your cooldowns are up, but it sucks to know your damage is horrid as you're waiting for your cooldowns to run down.


3. All that said, in general PVE, whether it be questing, grinding, or doing dungeons, the playstyle of the spec feels good. Energy regeneration is a tad low, especially when Blade Flurry is up, but in general the spec is good at delivering quick damage to multiple targets and has two cooldowns which work well. I say two cooldowns, because Adrenaline Rush and Shadow Blades are macroed together to do good burst damage. Killing Spree is the other.



I am a big proponent of random and rated battlegrounds. I have well over 100,000 honorable kills earned on my rogue alone, Battlemaster, Conqueror, 2200 RBG rating. I love doing battleground PVP and that is the focus of my PVP experience.

My experience of level 90 PVP in battlegrounds and duels can be summed up as: outmanuevered, outdamaged, outlasted.

1. Every single class has much more mobility than rogues right now. Our mobility without Shadowstep is horrible. Burst of Speed costs too much energy to be usable. Even with Shadowstep, the lack of Preparation for double Vanish or double Sprint makes us extremely vulnerable to roots and snares. Many classes can literally run circles around us.

2. I don't feel like we do enough damage, our yellow attacks as Assassination and especially Subtlety do not hit hard enough for the amount of resource that we are using. I am having an extremely hard time killing almost anything, and when I do not crit on my yellow attacks I do not feel like my abilities are doing anything at all.

3.When I am PVPing against several different classes, I feel like they are doing way too much damage in relation to how much damage I can do back to them. Having Preparation definitely helps, but it still leads to two problems. The first being the disparity between our survivability when our cooldowns are up and when they are not, and the second being a complete lack of mobility in all cases.

In summary I feel like the problem with rogue PVP, aside from general damage which can be fixed, is the seperation of Prep and Step. The two synergized really well where we could get to our targets, have a good uptime, and have enough cooldowns to be able to have a competitive chance to play well against them.

The opposite is the reality now, without both abilities there is no synergy which allows us to do this. Either we are extremely vulnerable to roots and kiting without the ability to catch our opponents, or we are able to catch them but unable to fight competitively because of the differences in base damage and lack of cooldowns.


Well it took me about 2 hours to write this. It was my intention to be concise and non biased, and give you guys the best feedback about the aspects of the class that I do and don't like as possible. Sorry for the long post, but if we really have your ears right now I have to give you everything I have. I love this class, and I really hope that you guys will take the feedback of myself and the many other long time, loyal rogues to heart.

If I could make a summary about how I've felt about rogues starting out in Mists of Pandaria, I think my response would be "meh." I don't feel like we have gained anything new or exciting that changes the way we play, and I feel like rogues have gotten more stale with the recent changes because all of our specs play nearly identically to each other. At least at the end of Cataclysm I could choose between playstyle differences when I changed specs; I could play a timing oriented spec; a fast, use every gcd possible spec; or play a spec where I simply tried to keep up as many finishers as possible.

I would like to ask any of players who have read my entire post to please Thumbs Up it if you agree with many or most of the points I have made here. If we can show Blizzard that we are in agreement about many of the issues we are having, maybe they will give those posts a second read.

Thumbs up!

QFT!! This rogue said it the best.


Blue, read.

I'd like to ask whatever happened to the "these are knobs we just turn" ideology? I appreciated it's simplicity and efficiency. In that vein, fixing pve would be easy. We have all the tools we need, just need damage tuning. I think you're going to find that many of us agree on that singular point. More damage, we are a focused class, our apologies but to our credit, we were made this way. In this post I'd like to make a few tuning and ability suggestions. Not everything can be implemented, I'm going for balance, nothing more.

A few suggestions follow, any damage tuning would work, so long as it's about 6-7% overall dps increase:


Revealing Strike now gives SS a 40% chance to generate an extra combo point, and increased finisher damage by 50%.

If that isn't enough then SS can do 145% weapon damage instead of 140.


Assassin's Resolve is now 25% instead of 20%. It now also increases the critical strike chance of Mutilate by 10% and Dispatch by 20%

Envenom damage increased 10%

Dispatch increased to 450% weapon damage. Sub 35% should be an assassination rogue's playground, like sub 20% is for warrior's. Dispatch should hurt and hurt bad, much like execute. If blindside needs to go away for that to happen, then so be it. Likely for the same reasons that sudden death had to go away.


I'm not sure what prompted the sanguinary vein reduction, but so be it, let's mess with other knobs.

Each use of Shadow Dance now reduces the cooldown of Shadow Blades by 1 minute. This incorporates synergy between the abilities. It also promotes sub as the premier armor ignoring spec, where as assassination ignores it through poison, and combat just hammers it like a brawler.

Executioner mastery changed to reincorporate an old talent: When your enemy's health is 35% or below your special attacks do 15% more damage, effected by mastery 1% for 1%. Subs problem is not starting the fight or continuing it. It's finishing it. There is no change from 100 to 0.

Damage increases are all we need in pve, pvp is a more complex beast. It's here where we see the disparity in damage and survivability and subsequently where it hurts the most.

Rogues are a fragile class, that is not inherently bad, but if we are to be fragile then we need to be deadly on offense. Blood dk's and warrior's can be used as examples here. Anyone who knows what they are doing is running around in defensive stance or blood presence. That doesn't need to be nerfed, it's fine I'm not looking to nerf anyone here, I'm looking to raise up rogues. It's a passive defense and both of those classes are the kings of passive defenses. No problem, rogues currently have many active defenses but no passive ones, let's fix that.

Combat readiness is removed, it is now a passive ability, capped at 25%, and now stacks to 5 charges. The charges will fall off after 8 seconds of not being attacked. The talent that replaces combat readiness could be called whatever, I'm partial to whirling dervish, but it's all about functionality, not it's title. This talent causes you to gain energy proportional to the damage you mitigate with combat readiness. The exact number can be debated, I'd say 3 energy for every 1000 damage. So if you get hit for 10k, mitigate 2.5k, you gain 7.5 energy.

Feint needs to be off the gcd, and usable while stunned/incapacitated.

Burst of speed needs to be 40 energy and makes you immune to fear, incapacitates, and sheep for the duration.

Deadly throw needs to be given with Shuriken toss. In it's place can be the old combat talent Surprise Attacks, making finishing moves immune to dodge and parry.

Any pve damage tuning will likely help pvp enough that our offense will be fine, if we can buff our defense and somehow incorporate defense into offense that would be ideal.
I personally would rather deal with being gcd capped instead of waiting around for energy.That's just my preference, I like feeling like I'm smashing dem keys for a reason.

I am so starved for energy it is painful to play currently.

I am not sure what lvl of haste is needed to make the rotation for combat feel more fluid, but currently I spend most of my time waiting around to use an ability (outside of popping Adrenaline Rush/Shadow Blades), let alone try and get off a finisher.

I would really like to see the duration of a SnD extended or give us back the glyph to increase it's duration.
Chillidog had the majority of the points we are all making well presented and regarded considering his player experience. Def appreciate the time everyone's been putting into these posts.

While I don't want rogues to all of a sudden become an over powered class, it would be nice to not be genuinely upset even after I've defeated an opponent in pvp. How hard i have to work to stand up to any one of the classes (Minus enhancement shamans) is grueling. Mobility and damage are probably the two easiest problems to fix. Even when I've managed to hurdle past these barriers, the amount of regen that the other classes have been given is disgusting. I'm not expecting any changes in our ability to regenerate life; it should just be noted that in comparison if we do manage to stay on a target our damage is unable to penetrate their regen, even with them sitting in a 5 point kidney shot.

Thanks for finally breaking silence on the forums.
GL with the issues at hand.

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