Why we are energy starved.

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Damage being number 1, I think everybody could agree with that. When leveling my DK or Lock I'm able to take on 5 mobs at once. On my rogue I find it faster to just get them down one at a time. And as sub? Forget it... It will take you ages to fight mobs. Our finishers aren't rewarding at all and we could only rely on cooldowns to kill anything (if we're lucky). FoK was buffed but is still bad. Once you drain your energy spamming it, it becomes terribly slow.

We have no self healing. Leeching poison would be good if we actually delt decent damage, maybe, but we don't so I don't know why anyone would choose it, and shouldn't that be in the same branch as paralytic poison? Rogues were excited about this new self healing method when the beta first came out but because of our poor damage it's just another great idea practically thrown away. I don't think any rogues care to keep recuperate up either. Just like leeching it's hardly noticable. I wish recuperate was in our tree so that I could choose something else to make my health go up. I hate that I have to spam elusiveness every 7 seconds hoping that my health doesn't go down too far. It feels like that's the only method I have without a cooldown. A healthstone effect would be a cool finishing move, better than recuperate anyway.

I love the rogue mechanics, there were so many awesome things that Blizzard could have done in compatibility with our theme but most of our new choices were old skills that should be given to us like ShS, deadly throw, combat readiness. I end up choosing the old skills because they work better than the new ones anyway. Shouldn't elusiveness be with nerve strike and combat readiness? Shouldn't shuriken toss and deadly throw be together? Or leeching poison and paralytic poison? I would hate to choose between them, sure, but regardless I don't feel like most the old skills should be in our tree anyway.

Being kited. Shuriken toss is alright but it feels like it should come with leveling for the sake of balance. Rather than using smoke bomb for an aggressive purpose I've been using it for a defensive one to keep ranged attacks from hitting me. We are practically defenseless against ranged. Why can a mage blink every 15 seconds and reset it's cooldowns? Even a hunter could disengage and reset its cooldowns yet we were the ones who got shafted in choosing prep or step when all three classes were equally OP in cata. I didn't think it was a big deal until experiencing the lack of mobility that there is now. And as for BoS? I feel I'm being kited more with that than with shadowstep. 60 energy really kills it.

That brings me to our energy regeneration. I can't tell if our moves cost too much or if our energy regenerates too slow. Dirty tricks should be a glyph, not a talent. Of course everybody is going to choose it when gouge is 45 energy. I feel so limited to my choices that it makes me sad.

I don't like that we can no longer poison throwing weapons. How cool would it be to choose what poison gets applied to shuriken toss? I know it's too late to change that but maybe it will be considered for the next patch.

I don't like that I have to reforge to mastery as sub because it feels like my damage kicks in once every minute for only a few seconds, but I would like it if it greatly improved eviscerate. Eviscerate doesn't feel as rewarding as it should be. My 85 DK could hit harder with 2 back to back obliterates that aren't even worked for than a level 90 finisher earned after keeping up slice and rupture.

Shadowblades should be that one move rogues have that when people hear on their gladiator addon they call out in fear, but nope. It's just another 3 minute cooldown move that brings our dps up to everyone elses for a few seconds.

Things I like in Mists:
Even though I still stick with mind-numbing with deadly brew it is neat to see new available non lethal poisons. It's a fantastic idea however I wish Blizzard went a little deeper into it.

Not filling an entire 24 slot bag with poisons.

Elusiveness allows feint to reduce all damage dealt rather than just AoE

A lot of people aren't to crazy about anticipation and versatility but I love them both. I love anticipation as sub however I wish it was worth more for the other two specs. Unfortunately our poor energy regeneration doesn't make it worth choosing for the others. Versatility is good especially for that role in rbgs where you're taking care of the healers. I find myself cheap shotting and kidneying two healers at once, and it's really good if you're lucky enough to get a deadly throw silence with it.

Honestly... there isn't much to like about rogues in mists because most of the good things about this class have already been there, but are just seperated from other good abilities.
I've read the first few pages... but not all 27, so forgive me. I'm just going to voice in on what I perceive as the need for additional damage in PvE.

As you may be able to see from my profile, I'm a generic casual rogue. My gear at the end of Cataclysm was just north of the 378 average. I leveled through Mists by getting greens/blues and starting to fill slots through quests/dungeons.

I leveled initially as Subtlety but found it strikingly under-powered by comparison to leveling through previous expansions. Consequently, I changed to Combat only to discover a similar struggle. Keep in mind, I'm not the best rogue... I'm the average rogue.

I have since leveled a priest and warrior through the same series of quests. I was saddened to discover how much easier it was to do on these alts. My damage from both classes as far superior and made the ride that much nicer.

Just thought I'd mention it in response to the original posters commentary. Your mileage may vary.

Posting in this to say I have had very similar feelings to what many have posted.

I like the changes to poison, but other than that...

As more and more people get geared I'm finding that even in dungeons I am having trouble competing. I've played my rogue since Burning Crusade and have always felt like my skill and attention to class mechanics have allowed me to be valuable despite gear and whatever else. Now it simply doesn't seem possible.

My 85 warrior 'feels' much,much more powerful (and is only 10-15k dps less, despite 5 levels and 70 item levels.).

Good warlock joins a dungeon or raid group? Good mage? Good hunter? Well, hopefully I can beat the tank.

  • What do you feel really works well for your Rogue in Mists?

Having swords equipped as Sub.

Too bad it is a damage loss. I long for the day that DP is set at a specific PPM, and Backstab allowed the use of Swords.

It would allow daggers to still be wanted by two specs (three actually, since Combat can still use them as an offhand if need be), and 3 specs could now use agility swords (not sure how strong current itemized swords are for Brewmasters, so maybe 4).

Other than that, it sucks having energy regen be so slow at the start of an expansion. This is a problem that I feel also affects Feral druids to a high degree.
Honestly what i want in my rogue for mop is for mut to hit hard and not have all passage dmg
Assassination needs venomous wounds at 100% chance to even out energy regeneration. They also need to add an easier way to apply the weakened armor debuff. Maybe they could add a glyph of corrosive poisons that adds a stack whenever deadly or instant poison deals damage.
I already spent extensive time posting on my views on rogues on the beta forum, so I'd advise looking over my posts there, but I'll go over the short version once again. I have four big concerns, and several smaller issues.

Big concerns:

1: We're playing much too slow. Since stealth doesn't mean much in PvE, fast rotations are what has always defined the rogue class in general, and combat spec in particular, for me. We should be the class with the least wait time of any melee, and combat should have the least wait time of any rogue spec. However, combat rogues have significantly more wait time than many other melee, and this is just wrong. Being energy-starved is not at all fun, and as long as the class plays slowly, I'll be focusing on my warlock instead.

2: I feel like this class was designed with only PvP in mind. When I play my paladin or my warlock, I feel like I'm contributing to my group beyond my DPS. I have useful utility to bring to the table. I don't feel this way on my rogue. There are numerous rogue skills that are bad or outright unusable the moment your target isn't a player. I haven't used shroud of concealment once since I got it, and I very much doubt I ever will. Same goes for smoke bomb. Smoke bomb, dismantle, and gouge aren't even on my bars anymore.

I could go on about this for a long time. I did a lengthy post on the beta forums about it you can probably dredge up.

3: For the love of all that's good and stabby, get our combo points off our targets! I cannot believe we're still dealing with this clunky, unfun, outdated mechanic. Any nuance brought by is trivialized by versatility and anticipation, which allow us to cheat the redirect CD. It's not doing any good for the class. It's just annoying people for no good reason.

4: There has never been a new rogue ability in my entire WoW career I was excited about. Combat readiness, smoke bomb, and shroud of concealment are pointless in PvE. Redirect is just an irritant. Shadow blades is at least useful, but it might as well read, "your adrenaline rush causes your abilities to grant an extra combo point." Pretty boring. At the very least, could we move its shadow damage component from auto-attacks to active abilities? Crimson tempest is kind of cool, but its damage seems pretty anemic, and that's sucking the fun out of it. Also, it feels like something we should have had all along, not something fresh and exciting.

Other issues:

The talent tree in general is kind of bad. Tiers 2 and 5 are just dartboards for PvE (seriously, if you want to make this a PvP-only class, just say so already). The stealth tier is pretty dull for PvE as well when you consider how we can only use stealth once or twice a fight at most.

The 90 talents in particular are disappointing. Two are things that ret paladins get baseline for free, one is something all other classes with a secondary resource get baseline for free, and the other is fun in theory but pointless in practice (at least for PvE) due to its low damage and short range, which means it can't even be used for air phases. Anticipation feels like the only one I would ever consider taking for PvE because the others just aren't that good. I don't want to take anticipation; I find it very dull. It's too abstract and distant from any feeling of what a real fight would be. But as it's a straight DPS gain, I'd be a fool not to take it.

Our spell effects are really boring, as are our minor glyphs. We could use a jolt of style.

I've long accepted that rogues are a high passive damage class, but it's getting a little absurd, especially for combat. The damage of my actual abilities isn't even noticeable anymore. It's not delivering the active feel I expect from the class. I realize this is too big a change for mid-expansion, but I would really love to see combat get a new mastery that provides a bonus to our active damage -- harder-hitting builders, more energy regen, something. Maybe a damage buff based on how low our energy is? That would be cool. Encourage our trademark spam.

We feel lacking in mobility considering we're supposed to be one of the more agile classes. My rogue doesn't feel much more agile than my paladin.

I feel too tanky. With leeching poison, I can pull whole packs and be in no danger of dying. Rogues ought to be glass cannons.

WTB more agility swords. To be honest, I don't see why you can't just put both strength and agility on melee weapons. Be more competition in the short term, but more options in the long term.

Low level sub feels awful now. Who's idea was it to make all the energy regen passives things you learn midway through leveling? Playing a lowbie sub rogue is like trying to fight in a vat of molasses.

In general, there just doesn't seem to have been any passion or creativity put into the rogue class in a long, long time. You've dotted the "I"s and crossed the "T"s, but you haven't put any work into making things exciting or making us feel like true rogues.
We feel weak compared to other classes and we have to go through extra steps way more complicated than other classes.

Paladin needs inquisition through holy power which needs 3 holy power which comes from 4-5 instant attack so its pretty much easy peasy and their cooldowns allow much more frequent use than our energy does even if sometimes it only takes 2 combo builders to reach 5 combo point in the case of mutilate and thats only to get snd or rupture up cuz then you have to wait 10 sec to get another 5 combo points and get the other one up. If your target dies you are screwed unless you are assassination which has a couple bandaid: cut to the chase and venomous wounds. otherwise you go to the next band-aid redirect chances if you are not 90 and specced its on cooldown.

We have to be bursty because we have to start our rotation over again and we lose stealth each time a target dies and we can't leave combat before the next or even just bosses who changes form! you removed the burst so now we have to suck it up maybe we'll get called in for those patchwerk fight or as a 1 man kick all spell with kick and deadly throw.

Redirect needs to go, so does its 90 talent. Combo points should be on the rogues stop the band-aids like relentless strikes and remove the energy cost of finishers so that we don't feel bad for using 1-4 finishers like envenom to refresh slice and dice. Redirect being instant and no gcd we would just macro that crap to our combo building abilities.

our Survivability sucks completly and is ignored while we have warriors running around with 25% dmg reduce because of no restriction on stances since all ability are usable in all stance (should be 5-10% and the rest through speccing prot) they also have a 20% dmg reduce, like warlock, paladin, dk and many mores but we need to talent into it like shamans and hunters who also have bad survivability. Recuperation 3% every 3 second doesn't cut it even glyphed when we see offspec heals going for 100k for a 1.5 sec cast and warrior getting 3% every second at 35% health left. its 9% every 3 sec but they also have rallying cry increasing its effect by alot and die by the sword, they dont even have to sacrifice any dps like we do while maintaining the feint buff up!

we are currently a joke, FOTM went monk and warrior and since we were the last season FOTM we got ignored all of beta and stroke down with the nerfbat. I bet its just a master plan to get rogues to reroll eventually will be warrior's turn. its so imbalanced I can't even figure out how it slipped through since its quite obvious.

Inc. can't compare classes; but guess what? its hard not to compare your own skills to others. if we were chefs we'd be having trouble to cut strawberries with our chef knifes while the others chefs are cutting pinapples with a plastic straw, I'll be looking at the other chefs workstation to figure out how they pull it out.

We also have no identity, stealth is now possible by a priest, hunter, druid (who also got a vanish talent). we get poison which we just apply and forget... we don't throw poison bottles, we don't have poison needles on our boots to paralyze enemy casters we just kicked. we don't throw blue poison bottles that slow enemies on the ground. Even smoke bomb's effect is underwhelming, I can still see outside or inside of it depending where I am! Also all the talents or ability that looked cool and fun got removed in the beta. all we kept is shroud and shuriken toss we never got a taste of the new killing spree.

I guess we were soo good in cataclysm we forgot to learn new tricks, we just forgot some of them.
10/08/2012 11:30 AMPosted by Daxxarri
I've uncapped this thread for further posting by the way.

Thanks dude.

Edit: Just to expand on this, I feel more constricted in terms of poison choice with this whole lethal/non-lethal.

I can't run mind-numbing//crippling without the 4pc from the PvP set.

I can't run Wound//Deadly at all.


Also, a minor issue in terms of PvP. Mutilate can't run wound/deadly. I feel that's kind of lame as deadly poison combined with wound was what made assassination viable, but now we have to run with a class that can offer an MS.

This isn't the biggest problem in the world though, there are many better things to address.
Hi Daxxari, welcome back to the rogue forums please pass our sentiments onto the developers and engineers.

I'll just add my 2 cents worth, which is mainly in agreement with many of the previous posts. Good job Luca too. This is mainly referring to Subtlety spec and PvP although many of these are applicable across all three specs.

1. Low damage especially considering our stupidly long CDs and our nerfed crit :-(

2. Stupidly long CDs

3. No survivability, we get globalled without our full set of CDs up, seriously, and often too and sometimes with our full CDs up we still have no chance anyway, (BM hunters, Mages and Warriors/Rets yes I'm looking at you)

4. Burst requires too much setup, with SnD (Fine w/e) Garrotte/Rupture (I see what you did there) No more SV on hemo and SV nerfed to boot wtf!?!?! You need to get SnD plus Garrote/Rupture up, spend at least 1 set of 5 CPs to get a KS CC in, THEN you need another set to get a 5CP Evisc. AND pool energy for Shadowdance, Ambush and Backstab do nothing now... oh wait we're dead because we have no combo pts for a neutered recup anyway...hilarious

5. No mobility/manouverability, and therefore no ability to connect and even use our stupidly long CDs We have to pick step as a talent?! :-( Burst of Speed is 60 energy, good joke guys.

6. Vanish on a 3 min CD, wtf. Its almost impossible to get a restealth outside of vanish in the midst of arena due to DOTs (and also EVERY1 SMASH THE SQUISHY ROGUE), sometimes possible in bgs but still not easy

7. You took away a lot of our abilities and made us choose them in our talent trees, 12 passives I mean seriously who the hell thought that was a good idea. Fire their arses

8. No decent new abilities that are actually usable/selectable or interesting except shadowblades and even that is underwhelming/underpowered with it's 3 min CD lol

9. Our utility via CCs has been shared around to other classes ridiculously, everyone else got more CCs and/or comparable ones on shorter cooldowns. How does this make sense?


1. Buff damage by lowering CDs and giving us our crit bonuses back that you took away

2. Lower CDs, SIGNIFICANTLY! I'm not talking 5 seconds or some rubbish

3. Buff our damage mitigation and recup, A LOT, lowering our defensive CDs would also obviously help here too, or just GIVE US A DECENT HEAL on demand!!! Like everyone else has.

4. IDK too much ramp up isn't fun or realistically viable against any other class atm, either put SV back onto Hemo OR make Evisc refresh rupture or SnD BUT also this refers back to point 1

5. Give us step or prep baseline and allow us to choose the other one in the talent tree and also give us an option to improve step to a lower CD because 24 sec is all kinds of retarded. Also allow BoS to break snares as well, OR lower it's energy cost noticeably

6. Giving us prep baseline would fix this, AND/OR lower the CD back to 2 min or 3 min and the Vanish CD back to 2 min or 1.30. 5 min prep CD good joke. No more Vanish saps make me sad.

7. Give us some of these talents back as baseline and...

8. Put some thought into some better talents. They are rubbish, we got massively shafted in MoP. QQ is justified.

9. Improve our CCs, via shorter cooldowns/DRs or extend the period of the CC, there is no such thing as a rogue stun-lock anymore and this makes me sad, and considering our damage has been shafted it just doesn't make sense at all. You should either have awesome control or awesome damage or a combination of both and we have neither, go figure

Additionally why nerf/punish an entire class when the perceived notion that they were OP in the first place was due to Legendaries and EPIC PVE trinkets that not everyone had anyway! Yes we were maybe slightly ahead of the pack otherwise but not to the degree that we deserved this beatdown. I had legendaries on my rogues but killed about 300+ raid bosses and never saw vial of any kind. Other classes got their vial equivalents at a better drop rate so I feel unjustifiably punished for some things I never got the benefit of. Incidentally the legendary took months and months of raiding, so it wasn't FREE as some people like to claim or insinuate. That's a lot of game play time put into something I only had a couple of weeks to use before the end of the season. Then what happens?!?! We get the biggest nerfbat beating in history. GG Blizzard devs. My hat's off to you.

Now is your chance to fix this. Kindly do so. I'm pretty sure the numbers of rogues have dropped dramatically since 5.0 came out. And this is despite the fact you had months and months to fix this in beta when you had thousands of complaints and logical suggestions to remedy this, that went completely ignored. We are the ONLY pure DPS melee class so why do all our specs suck so much at damage? The other 2 pure DPS classes Mages and Hunters are currently having a massive party at the bonfire on the bodies of the dead rogue class. Have a nice day.
10/08/2012 11:30 AMPosted by Daxxarri
I've uncapped this thread for further posting by the way.

Thanks Dax!
let's see, I'll try to post here my thoughs on the class from a more general view rather than trying to name specs and skills, this being particularly the viewpoint of a lesser gifted pvp player thats trying to play rogues for fun rather than trying to prove superiority to people or amming to be the very best that ever was or even a clone of that guy that plays oh so wickedly.

When I'm playing a rogue these are the challenges the class offers me in a vaccum:

Ramp-up: every spec has it's form, it's either passive or active, but in order to create a situation where my damage is optimum for killing off another player by myself, there is a specific and predictable set of actions that I must take, and those situations tend to be larger or smaller windows of opportunities.

This challenge tends to be exarcebated by low energy regeneration since the window of opportunity for damage may shut down entirely in my face if my energy isn't high enough to properly take advantage.

Low survivability: Survivability has been normalized between all 3 specs and all 3 are not very good at it, as a rogue all my survivability comes from long cooldowns that last 15~20 seconds, not getting caught while in stealth, running away and reentering stealth or constantly giving up part of my utility/energy/cps in order to mantain a better defense.

This shortens the window of opportunity further. Long ramp-up with short survivability leads to dying before making a difference in a battle.

Need of high uptime: all ramp-up mechanics require melee range. To keep the opponent within melee range we are required to paralyze them in a human trap fashion, however some of our CCs require us to delay our ramp up and/or forego outside assistance due to breaking their effect. This is heightened further by the small amount of movement tools that allow us to stick on a moving target. Also the enphasis on auto attacks means that catching up to an opponent for 1 second or 2 has very little effect on the damage dished out unless we can stop him in that window.

Rng: All specs are currently affected by this in the form of low criticals or specific skill procs,and the interesting part of this is that to me it feels like rogues are balanced around being extremely lucky, so a lucky string get's you good damage, not great, just good.

I feel that rogues uniqueness as a class has become it's limitations rather than what it can do. Vanish on a 3 min cooldown is quite an allegory to my statement.

This is my imput and if anyone still doesn't get what made subtley rogue so good last season try and compare my list with each spec and what they did to circunvent the class challenges.
While I have read a few of the posts here, I obviously didnt have time to read the entire thread. I feel where the OP is coming from. Not in relation to how other classes play, but more in relation to pure energy starvation. While I do not feel that starvation too terribly much while playing sub (or even assasination in some scenarios), I feel that combat really got the short end of the stick when it comes to energy regen. I find myself sitting there waiting for energy, and CDs running into eachother as I attempt to keep my buffs up.

This compounded with being even more starved in situations where we are using BF has really started to move me away from combat and toward assasination for multi dotting. I havent had much time to test it at this point to see if it is even viable.

I am not sure I agree with the sentiment to up us to 2 resources, but a few things that might help.
1. Give sub a refresh on another cooldown after an Evisc (like we were running in Cata).
2. Up the damage on Envenom to make it worth using.
3. Move Shadowstep to a base skill and replace it with someting comparative to Preparation. This would assist everyone with any mobility problems that we see now. Especialy with Sub and the fact that we NEED to be behind NPCs. This would free up Prep for everyone.
4. Combat really needs some kind of change. No matter what I do, energy is almost always 0 unless I use AR, in which case I may only wait a second for energy rather tha 3-4.

Some of these recommendations may be feasable, and some may not. Just throwing some ideas out :)
I loved my rogue in Cata, had fun with it. Now I've benched it to play as my DK, so I've got no experience at 90 so I can't really comment on what everyone else says, but I've got to tell ya, the comments all make me not want to play it at all, it's just so depressing. Especially after that Rogue: Dry as Dust thread the MoP Beta forum had.

The thing I do have issues with and can actually comment on it, the talents. Why are the talents so horrid?

This comes from a purely Assassination PvE rogue, as I don't play Combat or Sub so I don't know exactly what's going on with them, and I abhor PvP in it's entirety. It's not fun to me, never has been.

Just gonna add this as a preface here: This is all purely opinion, *not* fact. If you find some uses for things I describe as not being good or useless, great.

Tier one:
At first I thought this talent tier was gonna be a choice, a tough one, actually. I sat there for a long time, thinking about which would be better to take as Assassination; Shadow Focus or Subterfuge? Shadow Focus for obvious reasons and Subterfuge because it would keep Overkill going that much longer. Then my decision was made for me when Overkill got removed. Shadow Focus without a doubt, while using Night Stalker for solo purposes only. No choice here at all.

Tier two:

Deadly Throw; I never used it when it was baseline. Being purely PvE, I never needed a ranged interrupt. Kick was enough for me and didn't cost combo points to use. DT didn't even make it onto my action bar. As such, this was never a choice for me. I feel bad for the people that do use it though. Didn't it use to silence at any CP count? Nerfs abound!
Nerve Strike.......anything that actually matters in a dungeon and whatnot cannot be hit with Kidney Shot or Cheap Shot; Nerve Strike is thus rendered worthless. As such, this tier also only has one choice; Combat Readiness. Which was baseline until the pre-MoP patch hit. What exactly warranted Deadly Throw, Shadow Step, Preperation(SS and Prep for Sub only, granted, and Prep was only talented, but it was an obvious pick me talent), Combat Readiness and Night Stalker taken away from as as baseline? I know, Night Stalker wasn't exactly baseline, but improved stealth for the extra movement speed while stealthed was picked up by a large portion of rogues, I'd have to imagine. Point is, why did we have to not only lose baseline abilities, but also have to blow talents to only get a few of them back? No sense was made.

Only realistic choice: Combat Readiness. Even then, if your getting hit by a boss, chances are the combat readiness effect won't stack quick enough to keep you from eating dirt.

Tier three:
It took three tiers to finally come across a talent choice that doesn't have any clear winner, I think anyways. I could be wrong on this one and Elusiveness be the go-to one, as I don't know how well Leeching Poison actually works at the cap.

Cheat Death will save you should something go horridly wrong, so that's a legit option, though not what I consider optimal as it requires your healer to blow a bunch of mana picking you back up.

Leeching Poison is what I took personally. It makes a healer's life easier to have to heal just a little bit less and thus helps the healer out by making him/her consume less mana Yeah, it takes away crippling/mind-numbing/wound poisons, but I don't believe there are many bosses out there where any of these would have any effect. As such I consider it a non-issue.

Elusiveness, this bad boy is probably actually the go-to choice since a 30% cut in damage after a Feint is pretty big. The only thing though, I don't see it having much use in a dungeon setting. For Elusiveness to actually do anything you'd have to be the one tanking and you would be losing some dps since it consumes 20 energy in order to use it. Feint natively has a -50% AoE damage taken after use, and your MUCH more likely to take AoE damage rather then single target. I could see it if the 30% reduction stacked with the 50% AoE reduction though.

Choice for this talent tier is actually a choice, I think anyways.

Tier four:
This tier is marred by the sheer fact that sub used to just have these abilities anyways. I feel really bad for the sub rogues out there, as their spec got gutted for this talent tier to exist. While helpful(I guess.....) for Assassination and Combat, Sub, ouch.
I guess this tier has a choice to it.

Preparation: This has obvious uses to it, as it's pretty defined in what it can do. Extra vanish to make use of Shadow Focus or Night Stalker again, extra sprint to close the gap between you and the boss, extra Cloak to avoid an obnoxious boss mechanic a second time, extra evasion for when you must fill the gap as a ghetto tank, and an extra dismantle. Uh, yeah. Dismantle. Five minute cool down on this thing makes it not as good a gap closer as Shadow Step though, with it's 24 second cool down.

Shadow Step: This is my go-to choice just because I like the idea of an instant gap closer mid-fight. No dps lost from movement time, just poof and your ready to continue your assault. Easy enough.

Burst of Speed: While nice on paper, sixty energy? That's a pretty steep cost. If your sitting on that much energy, what are you doing? Being afk? Again, if your goal is a gap closer, Shadow Step. Low cool down timer and no energy cost. I don't think you need a gap closer more often then half a minute at a time.

So for this tier, I guess a choice. Only between two options though, not three. My own go-to is Shadow Step.

Tier five:
This is *the* most worthless tier out of the bunch, so much so that I refuse to use the talent point. It's an atrocious tier. That bad. Seriously. Reason? I hate PvP with a passion, and all of these talents are geared towards PvP, and have almost no use at all in a dungeon setting. I shouldn't even have to touch up as to why, but I will.

Prey on the Weak: The target takes 10% more damage while the effects of Kidney Shot, Cheap Shot, Gouge, Sap, and Blind. Not only do Gouge Sap and Blind break on a single hit, no boss can be hit with ANY OF THESE. If you pick this talent for just PvE purposes, you may as well just have left this tier untalented.

Paralytic Poison: It's a stun. Not helpful against bosses. Not only that, if you take this and even attempt to use it, that gets rid of the option for any of the other utility poisons. Yes, we've been over this, most of the utility poisons aren't helpful against bosses either, but if you use this, you can't use Leeching Poison. So if you take this, you limit your third tier to just two choices instead of three. Why you would take this is beyond me, except maybe to FoK trash into stuns, if your lucky.

Dirty Tricks: Gouge and Blind no longer have an energy cost, and neither ability will break upon your bleed and poison ticks. This is the *only* potentially useful PvE talent in this tier and that's only to remove the energy cost of blind. The other half of this talent, not breaking blind and gouge upon your DoT ticks is pointless as well. If you blind something, the whole point is to remove it from combat. If you're removing a target from combat, your not attacking it in the first place, so it won't have any of your DoT's on it anyway. During a boss fight? Only useful in a boss fight that just happens to summon adds, that can be stunned somehow. During a raid boss? Forget about it.

Conclusion: If I absolutely HAVE to pick one it would be Dirty Tricks because Prey on the Weak and Paralytic Poison have no possible use on bosses or anything.

Tier six:
This is supposed our awesome "omg can't wait to get it, it's going to be so cool" talent? How?

Shuriken Toss: From what I keep hearing, this thing hits like a wet noodle. Like......really old school Crusader Strike bad. I can understand it being nice to have a ranged CP generator, but really, you shouldn't be out of range long enough to warrant using this to build CPs as it takes 20 energy to use. Your better off saving the 20 energy to use something that actually hurts for when you get back into range. This is a glorified throw, all it is.

Versatility: This is a talent we shouldn't even need to have to begin with. The only point we even have Redirect in the first place is because they refuse to free us from that archaic method of having CPs on the target instead of on the rogue like holy power on plds. This is also only really useful during trash pulls that are small enough to not warrant using FoK over single target abilities. Versatility thus does nothing on bosses, unless the boss has adds or requires target swapping. Only boss in MoP I've run across so far that requires target swapping thus far is the Stone Guardians. By jove, that's a lot of uses!

Anticipation: This is the only one actually worth using, and even then it's not that great. The only possible uses this has(as much as I can figure based on the tool tip, as I've not gotten to level 90 as my rogue, and probably won't for a long time) is as Assassination(Possibly for other specs, but again I have no experience with other specs). When your setting up a Vendetta, sit on 9-10 CPs instead of just 4-5, use Vendetta and then immediately fire off two Envenoms in a row, instead of Envenom Mutilate Mutilate Envenom. You'd eek out a little bit more damage that way, I should think. I even hear people complaining about this one, the one I consider the only real choice. Something about how the extra charges can really only be used by offensive abilities and not passive buffs like Slice N Dice, so that you lose some of those stored CP from the duration of the buff wearing off.

Only real choice: Anticipation.

In a talent system that was promoted as a talent system where your choice really matters, there's actually not that much choice to it if your a PvE'r. To a lesser extent a PvP'er, I guess, as they actually have a use for Deadly Throw, Night Stalker, and the whole of talent tier five. Even the talent tiers that are actually a choice, none are impressive that completely, totally changes the way you play. I don't believe that this talent tree lives up to the hype it was given. This is very legit the only talent tree I don't even have to think twice about what to pick.
This should be a sticky to simply show Blizzard what they have done to the Rogue class. I regret leveling my rogue to 90 bc of these issues mentioned. Maybe they will fix this issue and make rogues viable again... just maybe :|
10/08/2012 04:02 PMPosted by Syrelan
idk about you guys. but my biggest issue right now is staying on target. i would kill for some mobiliy.

To solve my mobility problem, I defaulted to shadowstep rather than the other two. The only time this is a problem is when redirect is on cooldown. In Sub at least, Antcipation is very powerful (Combined with HAT), so I just dont even bother with versatility, and hope I dont have to switch targets until Redirect is back up.
Rogues really do need some kind of fix, when my 85 hunter that I raided with in Cata can out DPS my rogue that I made for my guild for MOP raiding, there's something wrong. I agree with the energy starvation statements, in heroics you can see Warlocks (used them specifically because in my last heroic had a lock doing 85k on bosses) and other classes doing insane DPS while I'm at 20-50k depending on the boss. Maybe its just heroics that are broken like that, as I will hopefully find out tonight in MV.
monks are a good example of what our power source should be like

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