Why we are energy starved.

Rogue
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Question please. Does haste really increase energy regain for rogues? In the character menu when mousing over the stats it says that it also increased energy regain but after stacking much haste, there was hardly any difference from what I could tell. Thnks
1) We're too gear dependent.
2) Our crit chance is way too low. Ideally, we would like to have our +crit talents back.
3) Our cooldowns are too long. 2 minutes for blind/vanish, 1.5min for cloak were ideal.
4) Our energy regen is too slow (even in combat spec with 23% haste from gear).
5) Too much of our damage is derived from auto attacks.
6) Our mobility isn't where it should be. Ideally, Shadowstep should be baseline.
7) No new "fun" abilities this expack except for Shadowblades. Abilities that were once baseline for us are being reintroduced as talents which we have to choose from, which isn't very nice =(.
8) The frenetic pace of playing a rogue just isn't there. The play style just feels too slow.
9) My combo point builders don't really hit much harder than they did @ level 85, if at all.
10) Stealth drops randomly for no reason.
11) We're too squishy currently.
Just for the record, I'm still monitoring this thread.

Note: Please don't be vulgar, hyperbolic, draw the discussion off-topic, violate the forum code of conduct, or otherwise disrupt this potentially very constructive thread. These things will make me sad. I do not want to be sad. None of us want to be sad. No sads.

Speaking of follow-up questions:

  • What do you feel really works well for your Rogue in Mists?


I'm not sure if i'm "allowed" to try to direct you off topic, as a gladiator rogue, with quite a few gladiator rogue friends, this topic seems to sum up all our frustrations in mist of pandaria: (There are more issues but these are the ones we feel would be justified to complain about, rather than just QQing because things don't explode every time the wind blows... although it would be nice to have wings again O.o.. everyone else gets wings :( )

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6794032195?page=1#4

That being said, i recently rerolled warrior, it is pleasant, things die.... especially rogues.

Still, we want every class to feel fun and satisfying to play, and I wanted to drop by and find out some specifics regarding why you guys are sad.


We're sad because the class is no longer satisfying to play.

Here's my reasons, as objectively as possible:

Too much of our damage is passive, coming from auto attacks, poisons or passive procs.

Too much work for too little reward. It takes 3-5 GCDs to set up a finisher like envenom or eviscerate (or rupture for that matter) and the amount of damage these moves generally produce is far too low. It doesn't feel like finishers finish anything other than a rotation these days.

Outside of cooldowns, mobility and survivability are awful. I don't want to make class comparisons here, but generally speaking, we are just not on par.

Speaking of cooldowns, we got a new one that is just meh. I like doing shadow damage, I like extra combo points, but another long cooldown and the the bonus damage is only on white attacks? This ability feels so very uninspired.

Little to no burst, which makes the previous one much worse. As odd as this sounds, burst was part of rogue survivability. Get in, do damage, get out is no longer a mantra we can really live by.

The changes to killing spree... really? There are so many raid encounters where you have to be careful about using killing spree in certain windows, and now it's going to attack extra times? When I saw the proposed changes at blizzcon, I was excited because I'd no longer lose control of my character, but instead, I get to lose control of my character even longer... And this is our only ability with any real burst to it and we can't control it.

What do you feel really works well for your Rogue in Mists?


Shuriken toss is a good ability but not a good level 90 talent.
New poison design is good. I'm glad to have those inventory slots back.
New weapon design is good (no more worrying about what is better, slow slow, fast slow, fast fast).

Lastly... I'm a panda...
In terms of theme Combat needs to go back to being a Swashbuckler spec. No Riposte, extra parry, dodge, Unfair Advantage, Nerves of Steel, 2 minute endurance, etc.


I would kill to get riposte and unfair advantage back.

The fact that monks get a passive that's basically unfair advantage (on top of pretty much everything else rogues ever asked for) makes me feel like Blizzard is just trolling me. :(

10/08/2012 06:01 PMPosted by Mafic
Shroud of Concealment is really fun to use, but I wish I could use it in while in combat.


When I first heard about SoC, I thought it'd be a group vanish, and I loved that idea. I could save groups after the tank dies. I'd finally feel valuable to a group. I don't know they made SoC so pointless. It's just a fluff ability, essentially.
Recently hit 90. Before I explain my experience with Rogue in MoP, let me assure I am no cata FOTM rogue. I quit about a week into cata, just wasn't enjoying the expansion, decided to come back for MoP with a fresh start. I made my first rogue in Open beta, I've seen a lot of changes over the years and enjoyed the direction my class took for the most part. Everything I have to say is from an Assassination rogue perspective, it is the only spec I enjoy playing.

Energy Starvation - It's pretty bad, small things slightly help, such as Shadow Focus and Venomous Wounds. But they're not enough and often times Venomous Wounds just feels completely gimmicky. Working up to apply Rupture and maintaining it on an opponent that more then likely has better mobility becomes a complete headache.

Mobility - To be blunt it's pretty abysmal right now, when compared to other classes. I feel like I HAVE to take Shadowstep which is what the new talent system was trying to avoid wasn't it? Secondly why is this even on the talent list? I feel at this point it should have been a class skill. I can't even consider sprint good for chasing/fleeing, in most cases you'll just get CC'd second after you pop it, so why not burst of speed? A 60 energy 4 sec sprint that breaks movement impairing effects. I can see how this sounds good on paper, but in the end you're left with 50-60% of your energy gone to break a frost nova only to have it reapplied so that you can waste the rest of your energy using it again catching them and standing there auto attacking until it regenerates to apply effects that cost energy to regenerate energy.

CC - "We have the best control in the game". I see this from people who disagree we have issues and/or need buffs. Compared to what exactly? CS/KS now share DR, Blind/Gouge break on damage (our own bleeds and poisons) unless glyphed or talented, Para poison is completely unreliable. I'm not complaining about our CC, but it's far from the best in the game, not anymore.

Damage - Right now I feel it's mostly fine, and those experiencing low damage are suffering from the previous issues I mentioned, which in turn effects our over all damage. My poison and bleed ticks are great, mutilate seems to hit like a wet noodle, but I see it for what it is, a skill used to generate CP. My only suggestion would be to reevaluate the Mutiliate cost again. I know the glyph was baked into the skill, but 55 with current working mechanics feels a little to much. Making it a flat 50 would be fair in my opinion.

Finishers - I've gotta be honest, I feel a bit overwhelmed with it at this point. I remember when things were so simple, situational, now it all feels like a requirement. Now I've gotta keep this up for this to benefit and that to stay alive, it just doesn't work with energy, energy isn't as flexible as you'd think. I've gotta use SnD for attack speed, gotta envenom to make it full duration/refresh, gotta rupture for energy regen and damage and gotta keep recuperate ticking for sustaining in a fight. Does anybody actually have fun balancing this mess?

Maybe I'm out of practice, but this is how I feel about the class currently.

tl;dr Opinions.
I have played a rogue since Vanilla and to keep it simple

Energy - There is just never enough no matter what spec you chose. Furthermore, ramp up went from stacking finishers to waiting 5+ seconds for energy, this is generally when a warrior/bm hunter kills you from 100% to 0 in 1 shockwave.

Damage - Due to the loss of crit % and crit damage modifiers our damage is Terrible in PVP... Compair our damage to Bm hunters, or arms warriors who can literally burst a full dreadfully geared player down in 1 stun.

Mobility - Forcing a rogue to chose between shadow step and preperation, while giving warriors, mages, spriests, hunters More damage and More Mobility and More control.

Control - supposedly the iconic roll our class is ment to play, however, with the invention of Monks, they make our control look like a joke. Paladins with an aoe blind? Shadow priests with psyfiend? New abilities that can be used while stunned? Classes with Immunities that make them impossible to cc?... Warrior parry/fear/sap immunity... DK fear/stun immunity... Paladins.. 2 different cc removers that do not include trinket?... Mages.. blink out of a stun every 20 seconds? Where is rogue control... Our control is beyond the point of fragile, its nearly non existent due to the hulk-smash-zerg play style of all damage classes.

Survivability - Reducing 30% damage using feint is a great idea, however, it lasts 5... seconds and costs energy... This ability requires a serious amount of psychic preminition to be effective considering Rogues are already energy starved. Cheat death literally fails. 3 minute cool down on vanish is too long considering we must give up preperation to maintain mobility. Not to mention Recup is now almost not even worth keeping up in pvp, due to lack of CP generation resulting from lack of energy.
Mobility is the #1 issue with me. You just cannot close in pvp and when you do finally close, they fear you, stun you, kite you ect and your back to square one.

I wont go into the energy/damage issue here as you have 28 pages of that already.

The class by and large feels clunky to play and seriously uninspired from a pvp point of view. I dont mind playing a slightly underpowered temp if it is fun to play, but for the first time since i joined wow, i am really losing interesting in playing my rogue.

Whose idea was it to have the main point of damage being white damage? instead of building up points for a decent finisher, i am spending them to keep rupture and snd up? Really? Since when are rogues about nickle and dimeing their opponent and not delivering some decent damage (at the expense of being somewhat squishy).
10/08/2012 07:01 PMPosted by Tuko
You just cannot close in pvp and when you do finally close, they fear you, stun you, kite you ect and your back to square one.


and when you FInally DO close the gap, your damage is so terrible.. they JUST LAUGH AT YOU...
Not to go off topic but....I like how Dax asked what you LIKED most....and then people only give what they dislike the most.

Now dont get me wrong, its perfectly normal and natural to see a blue post and try to get your ideas out on what you would like to see changed....

But I think the reason he asked what we LIKE the most, is so that if (hopefully WHEN) they do decide to touch us up a bit, they know what we like and what we would like to see more of and can apply that to their changes.

Now, carry on

/vanish

/Looks around slowly

"....why is everyone still looking at me...im supposed to be invisable....."
I may as well add my voice to the crowd:

Likes:
- the poison reworking was great, and a truly inspired change.
- Blindside in assassination is brilliant, keeps the rotation engaging
- FoK generating combo points, and the addition of Crimson Tempest to consume them
- Shadowstep in any spec!
- Shadow Blades is thematically appropriate and interesting
- Anticipation

Dislikes:
- energy regeneration is disgustingly slow as assassination
- Mutilate costs a bunch and doesn't do nearly the damage appropriate for that much waiting
- Envenom likewise hits nowhere near as hard as it ought to. Perhaps the Envenom buff would be better rolled into a real dot (front loaded damage + damage over time)
- Dispatch as a replacement for Backstab in assassination is nice, but you seem to have missed why people were using backstab during the execute phase; the huge crit chance and the glyph made it spammable and powerful.
- once we get to execute phase, switching from mutilate to dispatch means no more Blindside procs. This is not well thought out.
- Revealing Strike in combat needs to be re-evaluated. Perhaps as a proc and make it a replacement for Expose Armor somehow (very colosus-smash-like)
- AOE damage is awful. Seriously awful. Tanks and ranged classes continuously nuke huge numbers of mobs while I'm left tapping my foot waiting for enough energy to get off a FoK which hits like a peashooter. FoK/CT either need to hit a lot harder or they need to be a lot cheaper.
- sub needs to be able to refresh Rupture with Eviscerate again. Whoever thought to remove this needs a slapping. Hard.
- mobility mobility mobility. Shadowstep isn't so great that it needs a 24sec cooldown. Maybe 10sec.
- Shadow Blades doesn't perform nearly as well as it ought to. It's doing around 1.5 times the damage of Touch of the Grave. It's down at the bottom of the list.
That is because when you try to consider the pros and cons of a rogue.. there are so many cons... trying to get to any pros is seemingly difficult. I am worried that blizzard will focus on what we like, and try to increase what we already like.. instead of trying to fix what we dislike. Hence why i feel "what we like" is irrelevant and only skirting around the real issues.

Example:

Pro..
My class has stealth and i really enjoy the new poison change.

Con..
My damage is subpar, and as a melee i feel like a rock stuck in the mud.

Typical Blizzard way of fixing things..
Increase the effective stealth level and let them use 2 non-lethal poisons instead of 1.. meanwhile ignoring every thing the rogues have complained about.
The real issues are.. energy generation sucks on all 3 specs.. damage sucks on all 3 specs.. and staying on my target is a big problem on all 3 specs... Can i be any more clear?
Rogue now fights like a half F warrior, no more stealthy feel cause most class now can stealth

In PvE, out of energy.

In PvP, we gotta choose prep or shadow step.

CDs are way too long. Especially shadow step.

Please give me back a "rogue" not a "1/2 warrior & 1/2 rogue"
I really like that my class can stealth, i love that my class is suppose to be an assassin. (a feared backstabbing murderer) Furthermore, I love this class so much... No matter how many alts I have tried to make, I always come back to my rogue because of stealth/character framework/overall playstyle... Regardless of its current state of power in PVP. I always found a way to make my character fun in every expansion. To know what i like will make it clear to see why all rogues are equally as unhappy as i am. I love to do damage. I love to kill players in PVP (world/bg/arena). I love to play my rogue. Can we address the things all rogues love to do now?
Mobility is a major issue, especially when comparing to other melee damage dealers;

Warriors; Heroic Leap, 2X Charge (through Double Time), Intervening to Banners (removing roots if talented) gives the class *4* potential gap closers
Monk; 2X Roll (talented), Flying Serpent Kick gives this class 3 potential gap closers

Rogue; 1X Shadowstep (on a cool down longer than Charge)

Now if the developers expect us to use sprint or vanish or cloak as "mobility" spells, then Preparation would have to return as baseline (at a minimum). Warriors do not need to choose as drastically between offensive and defensive cooldowns as rogue to simply get around the battle field.

Ideally, rogues mobility and utility gets brought in line with other classes. Make Shadowstep baseline (as is). Replace Shadowstep talent with Improved Shadow Step, which allows stepping while rooted and reduces the cooldown by 4 seconds (similar to TBC mechanics). Kill Burst of Speed, replace with Improved Sprint (Sprint breaks roots, and maybe lowers sprint cd by 15 seconds). Reduce the cooldown of Vanish to 1 minute (things in the game like Displacer Beast make this reasonable). Reduce Cloak of Shadows to 1.5 minutes as per WOTLK/Cata.

These are some of the mobility issues I'd like addressed. Of course damage needs to be looked at, but I feel the other classes are doing too much instead of us doing too little.
What works? I do like shadow blades, but the only problem I'm finding is that I never have enough energy to use them. So far with a gear just below the current LFR, I am 1.5 Energy per second below what I was in cata as assassination and nearly 3 full eps than combat. Whereas the rotation seemed so much smoother in cata (well before legendary daggers), it seems a lot more clunky and having to wait on everything way more than I have ever before. I'd say the change that would probably help the most right now is I'd love to see envenom switch from refreshing SnD to refreshing Rupture now. I can live without SnD (though dps would suffer), but if I miss even the tiniest fraction of a second on Rupture I'm hurting bad.

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