Why we are energy starved.

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10/05/2012 01:48 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Still, we want every class to feel fun and satisfying to play, and I wanted to drop by and find out some specifics regarding why you guys are sad.

I can't say I've been playing much WoW. I've been on the road a lot, very busy with work, not a lot of free time for WoW, and often with less than stellar (but workable) internet connects. Truth be told, I spend a lot more time on these forums now than in game, I think that says something.

I can't fault your art department, beyond a few odd-looking Rogue sets (as a casual casual, none of which I have in full), they do TREMENDOUS work; I mean, just absolutely outstanding. I can't fault the new talent system either, it took some getting used to but the system itself is a solid idea (if a few cents shy of solidly implemented for Rogues). Really, in general, you guys at Blizzard do a great job, but there are a few things that make me said.

(1) No one goes out into the world anymore. Everyone can stay in just one city and queue for any dungeon, raid, or BG (even Arena). Some Capitals are crowded, the world is empty. The result? Few people enjoy all that great content developers spent tons of time on.
- Could people be given a bonus (Justice points, loot, etc) for entering an instance at the actual location?
- Could flight paths be moved away from those entrances? Could walking (or at least no flight) be implemented?
- Could bankers, auctioneers, specialized vendors, and other city services become more available out in the world?
- Could re-introduction of a porthole system, based outside of Capitals, compel people to get out to move around?
- Could incentivized World PvP battles be pasted on the Calendar a few times each month? A few times each week?

(2) In Cata, I tooled around with Mut PvP. I was never very good, casual is casual and Mut just couldn't keep up. It had some serious disadvantage. In short, I was used to losing ... in randoms. Now, all Rogues are in the same place. Lets take a closer look at the issues.

(2a) Issue 1: Balancing Sub and Mut:

- Where was Mut? Mut had several disadvantages. DP stacking, VW dropping (combination of Rupture duration, finisher juggling, and poison duration), finisher juggling (Rupture + Recuperate + SnD + Envenom), no ranged cp generation (important, especially with finisher juggling), no gap closer, no Prep.

- Where was Sub? At the beginning of Cata, it was right about where it needed to be. It's damage was low, but control was high. Most importantly, it's survivability was too high, way too high. After being knocked down a peg, it stayed quite strong until damage buffs, scaling, and legendaries put Sub WAY over the top.

- What Mut needed was to be brought up to a level close to Sub. What Sub needed was to lose a considerable amount of damage and have Energetic Recovery moved off Recuperate. That would have been enough, that would have made Sub slightly less powerful than early Cata; in other words, balanced.
- What we got was something halfway between Mut and Sub. In other words, Sub was nerfed too hard, and Mut was buffed too softly.

(2b) Issue 2: Many Rogues complain that our "survivability" is too low, and what they mean is "we can't take many hits," but it's more complicated than that. CC is much more abundant in MoP, but Rogues have done worse than simply not keep up. CS+KS stun locking had to go, but when you factor in 4.0.6 CC duration nerfs then look at 5.0 CD length increases, you can see that Rogue CC has largely (not completely) moved backwards. Moreover, Rogues themselves remain extremely vulnerable to CC. There's no Blink to break stuns or Berserker Rage to break fears/incapacitates; heck, Cloak of Shadows can get rid of spammable Hunter's Mark and Faery Fire once per two minutes.

TL;DR: Rogues have lost control of both other classes, and of their own characters to other classes. If Rogues aren't a damage class, and aren't a control class, and aren't a tank class, what kind of class are they?
I like that we can pet-battle.. that way when a horde tries to kill me.. i stand a better chance using my charisma and willing him into a pet-duel.. atleast on this battle field i stand a chance at beating him.
Please get rid of our PvP set bonuses. Both are incredibly lackluster, and neither gives us a commensurate benefit compared to almost all other classes. Something comparable to Hunters would be nice... Something like:
2-piece: When Shadow Dance, Killing Spree and Vendetta are active, you gain 3,200 PvP Power.
4-piece: Increases your Energy regeneration rate by 25%


Doesn't solve the crippling-mandatory-for-PvP syndrome if we lose deadly brew.

They should just remove crippling and add waylay to CP generators.
10/05/2012 01:24 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Better to consider your class mechanics within the context of your class mechanics instead.

(3) I haven't played much, I certainly don't have a recount, but I consistently read reports of 50-70% of our damage coming from "passive" sources, auto-attacks an poisons. So, I want you to try something for me.

Close your eyes (read this first). Imagine you are playing Street Fighter. Imagine your character is throwing out punches and kicks like a wild man. Now, imagine if you get to throw one of those every 3-6 seconds. Literally, all you do is move your character around, put them in front of a target, and the game does most the rest for you. Are you having fun? Probably not.

I understand that auto-attacks are a great way to smooth out damage, but there's a limit, and Rogues have gone beyond that. If casters get 100% of their damage from player initiated actions, then why is any class dealing with over 50%? It isn't fun.

10/05/2012 01:24 PMPosted by Daxxarri
That kind of false side-by-side comparison is something I like to nip in the bud. It creates un-justified class jealousy, y'know?

(4) I'm going to go out on a limb here and make some comparisons. I'm going to try and be as fair as possible because, quite frankly, I'm EXTREMELY jealous of other class' stealthing.

- Hunters can now glyph to move about in Camo, though at only 50% speed. Cool, no problem. Hunters can open on their targets before being detected. Not cool (Ferals and Rogues always risk detection). Hunters can re-stealth (no Vanish buff, no Cloak, and only lasts 6s but also provides 100% protection against ranged attacks) in combat ONCE PER MINUTE. Rogues have to wait three. NOT COOL.

- Druids can now talent Displacer Beast for a "Vanish." Vanish is a Rogue thing, but Displacer Beast doesn't have a Vanish buff. Cool, I can live with that. Displacer Beast has a 30s CD, ONE SIXTH the time of Vanish. Not cool. Resto Druids can self-dispel on a 8s CD. For our purposes, that's an 8s CD "Cloak" with a 30s CD "Vanish." 3m Cloak/Vanish for Rogues, 30s Cloak/Vanish for Resto, 30s semi-Vanish for Feral/Balance/Gudardian. NOT COOL.

- Priests. I don't understand Priests, but I'm given to understand they have something similar, something to do with "Fade," a 30s supposed Vanish. Again, I don't understand this one, so hopefully you can fill in the blanks. Cool?

Rogues are defined as THE stealth class. I understand that with all that Rogues can do from stealth, 30s Cloak/Vanishes are probably out of the question. Still, I look around, and suddenly it's not just "stealth" given to Ferals as Prowl and Mages as "Invisibility," but also what is essentially Vanish, with different pros and cons, on a much shorter CD given to multiple other classes.

I'm jealous, and that's a fair assessment.


Finally, going back to class mechanics, there is a thread called "My rogue list of improvements (Facts)" by Narcotics. It's full of suggestions that are not, well, facts. Even so, I nearly completely agree with his list and added quite a few of my own.

OK, OK, I know, they're suggestions. Big deal, right? Probably just OP buff requests. Still, please take a look at the thread. I can't give you insight into what all Rogues feel would make the class more fun, but I hope that the "suggestions" inside will give you ideas as to what I believe would be more fun completely within the context of the Rogue class:

(1) No one goes out into the world anymore. Everyone can stay in just one city and queue for any dungeon, raid, or BG (even Arena). Some Capitals are crowded, the world is empty. The result? Few people enjoy all that great content developers spent tons of time on.

This couldn't be farther from the truth.

Dailies are more important than ever and there are hubs in every zone, rare spawns are dropping entry level dungeon loot and are more common than ever, the PvP vendors were removed from main cities and placed on the Serpent's Spine, there's outdoor raid bosses that announce their presence, and that's on top of the normal farming and profession grinding people are doing right now, and on top of the Halfhill farm side-game and many other things.

There's more reason to go out into the world now than there has been in a very, very long time. I spend maybe 10% of my time in Stormwind right now; the rest is spent out doing things because there is so much to do.

On topic, the main problems with Rogues right now from my experiences:

-The double dipping of finishers(Costing CP's and Energy) is out of hand for the pitiful damage they do.

-Energy regen and scaling in general needs to be fixed because we suffer from the same problems every Xpac, where we suck at the beginning and get exponentially stronger the better the gear gets because of talents like Sinister Calling. We need better regen right now, we are essentially the only class who sits and does nothing but auto-attack for 50% of a fight, and whose main sources of damage are passive. It's a horrible design and it puzzles me as to why GC considered us the best designed class. Passive damage is not fun at all, and when a class is designed around that damage and given terrible mobility, it has serious PvP implications.

-We are more cooldown dependent than I think we've ever been. I've played a Rogue since the launch of this game, and I dont think we've ever been this dependent on CD's before. Again, it's a horrible design decision. We were given yet another 3 minute CD, all of our other CD's were raised with no compensation and we have to choose between a core PvP talent (Prep) and another (Step) which is, again, a terrible design decision.

-We had many things taken away from us with no reasoning or explanation, then given back to us repackaged as "new" abilities. The perfect example of this is our loss of Deadly Brew, which is then given back to us as a 4pc PvP set bonus.

Overall I'm left with the overwhelming feeling that most of the feedback that was given during Beta was largely ignored. The concerns that many players had and the problems many had experienced were shouted from the rooftops a long, long time ago and nothing was addressed.

I guess most people are tired of a reactive approach to balance over a progressive approach to balance. Even on paper, the Rogue changes looked bad. In implementation, they were as bad as they looked. When all the Rogue players saw this coming why couldn't the devs? Things should've never been this bad. A progressive approach would've yielded far better results and much happier customers than the reactive approach that seems to always be taken. A lot of people dont like waiting to be viable, and that's not something to really blame them for.
You know... I think they knew this would happen. Everyone complains about them not listening to our beta analysis about what needing fixing. I am beginning to think they believe there is something other than what has been listed as our issue(s).

I either want things back to the way we were in 4.3 minus the orange things and OP trinket. Or they fix what they changed and make us into the class they changed everything about. That might be it right there... they didn't change diddly squat. All they did was take things away that were staples of our specs since the beginning, and then nerf us. Now it seems they are looking for other ways to improve our class. I see no other options because we have no other options.
Simply put my rogue feels VERY clunky not fluid, hell at 60 with 30/31 i felt more fluid. we really are energy starved.

*Shadowblades= is a great and amazing tool but the CD is to Long.

*Anticipation needs to be base lined, this has been a concept that should have been implemented years ago. doing this wont screw with our dmg pve or pvp wise it will just bring us more utility to both settings.

* prep needs to be shortened to 3 minutes and heal us for 30% of our health, the same as my mages Coldsnap.

* Kindey shot and CHeapshot should not share the same DR. my mage has ring of frost, Deep freeze, Frost nova and a pet nova. + a spammable cc. now i am not asking for a spamable CC, just for the 2 to not share DR.

I'm constantly waiting for energy just to bring someone to half health, only to have them turn around and utterly destroy me. rogues DMG is severely lacking atm and i have some pretty decent gear. We bring Zero utility for anything currently atm not RBG, arena, or even raiding.

2100+ before achievements were around on this guy, higher on my shaman before they were good, real legendary's in 08, so i'm fairly experienced on this guy. However, pve atm on this guy is zero fun... and i wont even comment about rbg or arena.... i just turn on twitch and giggle when i seem bm/war utterly train rolling people. i hope you guys fix our current imbalance this toon is my favorite and i really hope that i dont have to sit him aside for a few seasons.

Thank you for your time.
Well I was just in a dungeon where mobs with 200k health kept coming, about 20-30 (New 87 dungeon, not a clue what the name is.). Apart from a mutilate on every 5th one or so, I mayaswell have been afk for what I could do to help. Am I missing something or is muti with dispatch procs (and FoK?) the only cp gen for assassin? I've only been playing assassin since MoP came so it could definitely be a L2P issue.

I like playing assassin it's a much needed breath of fresh air from sub. But apart from positioning I don't feel like I REALLY need to do anything during a fight. I keep SnD, Rupture, even recup up to help the healer and envenom rolling but all the damage just feels so passive.

I haven't gotten to 90 yet obviously, but the talents just don't interest me in any way at all. The only reason I want to be 90 is to start gearing up for PvP although I'm in no rush.

As with the common Rogue feedback; not liking the cd timers. The way that they've been set is very awkward. They can't be too low as people who pick prep will be considered OP; then on the otherhand they can't be too high as to make the class too hard to play. No thoughts on how to fix this. I'd say remove prep, but I'm guessing some people like using it.

I love playing the Rogue class, I started levelling during wrath and have loved it the whole time. I followed the beta forums closely during the testing and it's made me fairly annoyed to see the most common complaints make it into the game with no thought or reason put into it. Most classes changed dramatically over the feedback but Rogues got given a lollipop in shadow blades and told that everything will be ok. Now I have a Paladin, Hunter and Warlock sitting at 85 but I just can't bring myself to shelve my Rogue no matter how hard I try. There's nothing I like more than locking down a healer, stealth capping a flag, and bursting other players from out of nowhere. Please fix my favourite class :(
I've been with this class for almost 10 months now. Almost completely straight. Not because it was OP at the time, granted it was, especially at 70..but because I got baked almost every day and this class made it able to stealth and munch without any worry in the world and then open on a straggler.

At first, yea I was the typical 3 button rogue and I wrecked everything. But eventually, I learned how to actually 'play' the class through trial and error both baked, drunk, and sober.

No other class feels right to me at all nowadays because, I don't know, I'm just so used to this one now. It's my favorite. No other game allows stealth 24/7. That in itself is badass.

To the issues: I feel energy starved as all have said. I feel like without Shadow Focus, I'm opening and then waiting. Of course, my poisons are doing 75% of the damage for me..but that's no fun, at least when sober.
There's no flavor...
I was hoping MoP would nerf us (didn't hope for the nerf but I knew it was coming) but in turn, give us some cool stuff to mess around with. Anything I'd deem cool has a huge cooldown and time is always slow for me..so it ain't worth it in my opinion.

Our talents lack flavor as well. 90 talents..cmon. Could have done what GW2 thieves have and give us like an upgraded shadowstep, where you shadowstep to an enemy and then click it again to shadowstep back to the original position. That could fix our mobility issues BIG time.

Other than that, I gotta say I'm already used to the playstyle of the 'MoP' rogue and I'm actually not doing too bad in BG's. Haven't tried Arenas..my buddy hasn't been on when I am.

Hope the idea in the bold is looked at. Ideas like that are what makes a class fun. Thanks GM for helpin us out.

It looks like everything that can possibly be said on the matter has already been said - almost - so I don't really have much to add here. But I would like to make one suggestion that I feel would solve all the problems here:

Just remove rogue as a class. Give us a free new toon of equal level/gear/whatever and turn all of our rogues into limited edition battle pets.
It feels so obvious that the worthlessness of the class will be addressed, but nowhere near sufficiently, or soon - we're too far behind everyone else to recover in a single patch without starting riots - so just put us out of our misery. I'd much rather have a nifty unique Pokemon than wait half a year+ to almost enjoy my class again anyway, and I'm sure a lot of people here would agree.
No joke, just kill rogue off and let's move on. Simple.
Just remove rogue as a class. Give us a free new toon of equal level/gear/whatever and turn all of our rogues into limited edition battle pets.
It feels so obvious that the worthlessness of the class will be addressed, but nowhere near sufficiently, or soon - we're too far behind everyone else to recover in a single patch without starting riots - so just put us out of our misery. I'd much rather have a nifty unique Pokemon than wait half a year+ to almost enjoy my class again anyway, and I'm sure a lot of people here would agree.
No joke, just kill rogue off and let's move on. Simple.

1 minute ago

HA. Crossed my mind as well.
10/09/2012 05:21 AMPosted by Vish
You know... I think they knew this would happen.

That... Blizz isn't stupid.

That said we were overplayed and this is a nice little way of making it so that we're evened out a little bit before they buff us a tad bit so that too much aggro isn't pulled from QQers/ fotm'ers.

I really believe a rogue with enough determination and consitency with great CC's can still achieve 2200 even with huge CD's. It just requires a lot of precision, like an enh shaman needed with its 4 or 6 sec interrupt last patch.

As for comparing a monk's chi to a rogue's CP's... I don't see how they arent exactly the same. Sure less damage is done by a monk's chi-using abilities, conditionally, but it's their ramp up/ build-up for big damage, just like a rogue's with SnD/ Rupture/ refresh SnD through envenom.

Damage for us rogues has become very static, but like I said, I am sure Blizz is very aware of what they are doing in the grand scheme of things.
Speaking of follow-up questions:

  • What do you feel really works well for your Rogue in Mists?

Well, unlike most rogues that post, I don't think the class is fundamentally broken.

I don't think that combo points should be on the rogue. I don't think the gain would be substantial, nor do I think that suggestion makes any sense.

I'm fine with our level 90 talents. I think they accomplish exactly what they meant to, and rogues who think they should all be baseline can go play a ret paladin. I'd really like to play with Shiruken Toss more, but as assassination, Anticipation is obviously more of a gain on any fight where I'm mostly in melee, and having it sort of brings back the feel of Ruthlessness. Redirect... meh. I've learned to deal with target switching. That said, eventually the devs are going to cave to the whining and put CPs on the rogue anyway.

Playing assassination, the play feels mostly the same, just slower due to the lower haste. I see a lot of rogues complain that so much damage is white damage and poisons. I also see a lot of rogues in LFD who are absolutely terrible at DPS. I think the rogue PVE skill cap might be a little deceptive, appearing lower than it actually is.

Shadow Blades. Ugh. 3 minutes. I'd really like for it to match up with Vendetta, but then I'd just macro the two, and the devs wouldn't like that. I'm not sure if it's intended, but the best way to maximize both Vendetta and Shadow Blades is to use them during Dispatch phase, which kind of means that maximizing DPS means I have to be psychic and know how long the fight's going to last.

My big complaint about Assassination right now is actually due to Combat: Blade Flurry. In any situation where Blade Flurry is useful (read: pretty much every trash pull in any instance), Combat is miles ahead of Assassination. I've always used daggers, and I don't really want to have to use a different weapon if and when I start challenge modes and find that Combat is a mandatory spec for them. Possible solutions to this include making Blade Flurry baseline (an idea I don't like), changing BF back to being a cooldown (which I assume combat wouldn't like), or making Combat viable with daggers using the same tricks that made Hemo+daggers work, and Combat+legendaries work.

The other issue I'm having is with AOE. FoK and CT are energy-intensive, and while they work with high levels of haste, it's painful right now. Two Mutilates can generally get me 5CP for a 5cp-CT, but that's all my energy and then I'm left with 1 FoK every couple seconds. Or if I front-load FoK, I still don't have the energy to do anything else. Perhaps putting FoK at 25 energy would help. Or bring back Focused Attacks. That was pretty cool. As things stand now, I'm getting out-AOE'd by pretty much every class, and while on some level that's something I'd really like (you might recall back before rogues had any AOE abilities), I'm also getting out-DPSed on low-number multi-targets, and my single-target DPS isn't significantly better than others' that I think it warrants this trouble with AOE.
There's been a lot of really good posts explaining the issues with rogues right now, especially in regards to energy starvation on Assassination. I'm going to make a suggestion that I realize is not something that will happen immediately, and probably never will, but since it seems like blue is reading this, I'm gonna throw it out there.

The biggest long term problem with rogues for me is that the specs aren't very distinctive. I'm sure there's plenty who will argue with me, and I understand that each one has their own situational uses (PVE vs PVP, Single Target vs Multi-Target), but I'd still like to see a more radical difference.

- Since Combat to me is probably the most distinctive (swashbuckling, no dagger emphasis, little stealth emphasis), we leave that, but we combine the Assassination and Subtlety specs. Make that spec have an emphasis on stealth and poison. The abilities you get make you choose between a high burst damage, or a longer sustained damage model. Perhaps this could be accomplished by separating instant poison and deadly poison again. Instant poison could be only applied by yellow damage, not white, so that it was more bursty. While deadly would provide that sustained damage for longer PVE fights. Of course, you wouldn't have the ability to have both at the same time, so something along these lines could allow for the same spec to have both PVP and PVE utility.

- Since we're combining Assassination and Subtlety, we need a new spec. Evasion. Many rogues have long wanted it, so lets go with a tank spec. I believe that would make 6 classes with a tank spec, but lets be honest, we still have a tank shortage overall, so I don't see the harm in having another class able to tank. Rogues would be extremely dodge focused, and likely would not have nearly the stamina that other tanks have. The level 45 part of the talent tree would need a redesign, because those skills would be Evasion spec skills now, and combat readiness and the evasion skill would get shorter cooldowns for this spec.

Other quick ideas for Evasion spec.

-Vanish could get an ability similar to the Glyph of Decoy, except that the decoy would be targetable (with a minimal amount of health), and would taunt any NPC that you're currently in combat with. Small self heal while stealthed.

- Stuns rarely(never) work on raid/dungeon bosses, but Evasion spec could have a "disorient" type ability that would reduce a mobs chance to hit.

- An ability to auto shadowstep behind the mob the next time a damaging ability would normally hit. Would be long cooldown "oh crap, big damage incoming" ability.

Obviously, this is a very high level idea, that I'm sure has many flaws, but I think something in this vein would really make rogues seem less "blah". I think many rogues would welcome the ability to evasion tank.
I leveled this guy, and I am in the process of gearing him. Trying to make a good honest go of it. Let me just say first off that my concern isn't really based all that much on the perceived power of the class, though that is somewhat true, that often comes down to number tuning.

What concerns me most is that quite frankly it's a little boring right now. I've heard people say that it that might come from playing the class for too long, but if I didn't find him boring on Aug 27th, I wouldn't agree that's the answer. Some might say it's because Sub was overpowered, and now it's not. Well I had just as much fun when Sub hit like a wet noodle, so whatever.

Here's Reckful's quote on why he rerolled: "yes. i'm going to try it out for the first few months of MoP. it's more fun to me than rogue right now. i enjoy rotating all the short warrior cooldowns... rogues have mostly very long cooldowns that have started to bore me."

This quote, as well as this thread point out the same overall problem. We spend a lot of time waiting. Waiting for energy, waiting for cooldowns, waiting for a chance to get to our target. Waiting is not fun gameplay. It's the sort of gameplay that makes me think, "Druids look pretty fun right now."

I get that people felt that rogues were overpowered. If we are going to have vanish on a long cooldown because it allows us to escape too often then fine. If we are going to have cloak of shadows on a long cooldown because it allows us to counter casters too easily if it is up too often then fine. But our mobility is far too dependent on using those as root breaks in an attempt to get to our target. The result is that the pendulum has swung so far over in favor of classes that can kite, that it is not even remotely interesting. If a kiting class makes a mistake with a cooldown, they simply cycle to the next one, or will have another up shortly. If I make a mistake with a cooldown, I auto lose.

The energy starvation issue is big. Admittedly I haven't tried Combat, just got a fist weapon out of a heroic, and may give it a shot in the next few days. But I usually enjoy the dagger specs, and if I stick with Combat I would like it to be because I enjoy it for it's own sake, not because I need to play that spec to be functional. But from what I am hearing Combat also feels a little slow.

The problem I find with Assassination is that Mutilate has such a large energy cost, and the tools built in for energy returns can be very RNG. If I get consistent Dispatch and Venomous Wounds procs, it's not too bad, if I get unlucky my damage drops. I actually enjoy the way the rotation works, Dispatch procs have gone a long way towards removing the monotony, and the execute phase has always been something I liked about the spec. I hadn't really planned on making a lot of suggestions, but I will make this one, that if Venomous Wound proc chance were changed from 75% to 100% it would go a long way with this spec. Both in helping to fix the energy starvation, and the frustrating RNG.

The Subtlety rotation has too much junk in it, especially given the cost of backstab and the amount of combo points you need to keep the whole thing going. It was also the more complicated rotation of the 3 specs in Cata, but the combo point, and energy generation was there to make it work. Now the juggling of the various buffs and debuffs is frustrating. And about backstab, I get that people get upset in PvP, but I am endlessly confused as to why a positional attack, that requires me to stick to the target does less damage than any number of ranged, instant cast, low cost abilities.

From the sound of things I am probably the only one that is concerned about having Shadow Blades. It's a fun ability because it ups our damage, but I think it way make us difficult to balance. If our damage is buffed, it may be fine for the 3 mins between SB cooldowns, but ridiculous during it. And all anyone in PvP is ever going to remember is that a rogue just destroyed them, even if it was the result of stacking long cooldowns.

Our AoE dps seems weak to me, now generally I don't care too much about AoE just because I think it favors certain classes and specs, and is more fun for mindless ability spaming and big numbers. But I personally am having trouble keeping up with tanks in this regard which just seems weird to me.

I don't like the amount of passive damage I do, it is not very visceral.

Shuriken Toss is ok I guess, right now it feels like a weak stop gap for my low mobility in pvp. It is sort of boring using a weak ranged attack, when I'd much rather just be able to get to my target. Anticipation is nice, but passive. Versatility is interesting, but outside of fights where you have to swap targets a lot, it will be my leased used.
I see a few people praising shroud of concealment. Can I ask what you guys are using it for? Is it just PvP, or did you find a PvE use? Because I can't for the life of me figure out what it's good for in PvE, except maybe skipping an occasional trash pack, which is a really uninspiring use for a new ability -- especially one as potentially awesome as group stealth.

I think one of the problems with Riposte and reactive attacks is that they don't work very well when you're not solo anymore. When the mobs are paying attention to the tank, the rogue (or any DPS) isn't really in a position to be really interacting with them so much as just beating on them. For PVP of course that's a totally different matter.

It's hard to be a swashbuckler in a raid, as awesome as the image is.

A valid point. I did ultimately spec out of riposte in Wrath because it didn't do me any good in groups. But I've suggested ways to make it useful in groups. Instead of triggering only parries, make it trigger on parry or melee crit, with a higher chance to trigger from a parry than a crit.

wow really? this isn't a case of rogues being "skewed towards pvp" this is a case of you being absolutely 1 track mind and being a middle of the pack player IMO. Even in raids, i used cheap shot kidney shot dismantle deadly throw (when im sitting there and theres nothing else to do may as well) combat readiness (you've never had to tank a mob cos the tank JUST died at the very end? that NEVER happens for you?! right.) AND YOU DONT HAVE SMOKE BOMB ON YOUR BARS?! holy crap.

It's difficult to take this post seriously when you're posting on a druid and not providing much in the way of examples of what you use these abilities for.

Using deadly throw when you're out of melee is bad. You're better off saving the combo points to refresh SnD when you move back into melee.

Sure, I have to survive mob attacks when the tank dies, but vanish and evasion are both better tools for this than CR.

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