Why we are energy starved.

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I think most people just want a little more energy and to return some thing you removed.

Make either Shadow Step or Prep baseline.
Scrap prep and just make cool downs like Blind, Vanish and Evasion 1.5-2 mins.
Return Mutilate to having a passive 30% extra crit chance. ( Maybe slightly buff the damage as well? )
Increase passive energy regeneration.

Assassination passive : You regain 1-2 energy every time you apply a lethal poison ?
I saw this thread and have been watching it and finally decided to post something here to add my interpretation of my character after all my frustration. I have been playing a rogue and have never had any alts that i have leveled past 80. I am ONLY a rogue, started when BC was released and have never been able to quit playing my rogue. LOVE IT. However, in this expansion, things started out pretty good pre expansion with the legendaries and I felt pretty good, still not able to put out more than a multi dotting druid and the like on certian fights but still felt pretty good as i usually am top or close to top of the DPS meters. Mists came out and leveling was pretty tough with the lower gear as i leveled, the energy problem was MASSIVELY apparent.. I figured it was just a scaling issue with the green gear and would be better later. As I have geared up fairly well and finally did the raid this week, i have much to say.

AR to start with has been a good CD and the addition of Shadow Blades was cool, and the visual aside, as im not too hung up on visual flashy attacking since ive never had that as a rouge, the ability is cool but all it has become is an AR buff. Might as well have packed it into the AR and just buffed AR, as i do this anyway by making a macro for AR+SB so i can use them at the same time. My level 90 ability has been packed into a pre existing one, so to me SB feels like nothing new. Not too great of a level 90 ability if it just becomes part of an old one. But to be honest, when i burst this cooldown is the only time i feel close to my old self with the energy regen and combo point build up, it gets a little hairy with the use of Anticipation, which many people seem to praise. I am not too much of a fan but the other two abilities are in need of so much work I have to use Anticipation.

Here is my problem with Anticipation. First of all i expected another set of combo points to appear on top of my old combo points, like in another row or maybe a different color on top of my existing ones so it was easy to see, but ohh nooo. They appear in a buff at the top that makes me have to watch not only my typical combo point image but to track where in the world the anticipation buff ended up in my buff list, AND IT HAS A TIMER ON IT!??! ARE YOU KIDDING!?!? So with the slow energy regeneration, if i put 5 CP into anticipation, and all of a sudden have to move or my Rupture and SND need to be refreshed, guess what, not all of those finishers will give me my combo points, and if i was moving and have to build up 5 more combo points to use an effective finisher of any sort to get those held ticking combo points, there is no chance. By the time i get a finisher ready, guess what... the 5 anticipation combo points have vanished. All that energy plunking little sinster strikes wasted for NO finisher. I dont see the reason to having those combo points timed. Rotation is rough enough as it is with the slow energy gains currently.

I was also disappointed with the glyph of shape shifting when pick pocketing, could have been so fun but i pick pocket and then typically kill the pocketed target, thats usually how it works, pocket before kill. only sometimes may one go around farming pockets, but typically its something a rogue does before a kill, and oh man, shape shift gone the second after i obtained it. And no mounting, i get that model alteration on mounts would be a crazy task so thats fine, but really the only time this glyph is any use/fun is the second between the pick pocket and the attack. So sad.

Killing spree. LOVE this ability sooo much but it seems to have caused so much trouble anymore. I know its probably just the risk of such an ability but i remember dying on Magmaw so many times by accidently popping this ability and falling behind the boss into the lava. The glyph has fixed this and they didnt allow this to happen on fights like deathwing so that is better, but after doing Mogu'shan Vaults it has killed me in the fire suck in ability that Feng the Accursed does, I have jumped to the totem in the Garajal the Spirit binder fight killign it too early or actually porting to the shadow realm instead of the healer... So many problems that i dont even feel i can use this ability on CD or have to hold off just in case and am scared to use it.

Mogu'shan Vaults. I have felt TERRIBLE in this raid. I used to feel so special in raids before, like i always had something up my sleeve, some benificial cool ability ie cloak of shadows/kick, or good burst at a critical point ie spine of deathwing, etc. This raid felt AWEFUL. I had the issues with killing spree as described above and my utility has immensly lessened. Kick was nerfed, tricks of the trade has its own set of issues as most of this has already been discussed. I remember that the druid in the raid was excited about symbiosis for my cloak of shadows but didnt seem to find any use for it that helped in this raid enough to use it. I felt that the things that used to make me valuable and special have been nerfed so much that I am just being kept around because I was already established in my raid group and not because i am a great help. I am still able to pull somewhat reasonable numbers but its a struggle and feel like i am drowning. Stoneguard fight went fine. When we got to Feng the Accursed, i had trouble with killing spree and was disappointed with my DPS as a few of these fights arent very mele friendly but that is another topic. Gara'Jal was terrible. I felt like I had troble with killing spree as mentioned above and my DPS was bad. Still close to others, but just not what i expected. I also felt useless in the spirit realm because i had to run to the spirits inside and only did anything helpful when they were close so i could cleave with blade flurry but otherwise was not favored over a ranged in any situation, which meant i rarely got the buff. So you would think i could make up for that outside the spirit realm? NO! I would get the voodoo doll, nearly every fight, and would be almost the only person to EVER die to this. I would get it and survive alright with the tanks initial cooldowns and keep getting healed up. Then i would see the damage come in and pop Recuperation to help the heals, but wait, it takes 3 seconds to get only 3% health back so while i wait for that heal to start poping i go to use feint hoping this might do something, nope. So i start to panic and pop evasion but im not getting meled so dodge doesnt help, then i pop feint to hope this will help but im not taking AOE damage so it doesn help (i actually ended up swapping my talents to remove my leeching poision to allow for the 30% damage reduction here to survive which barely helped enough to keep me alive finally) then i go to my cloak of shadows hoping ONE of my cooldowns will help, but its not resistable magic damage so that doesnt work, then in my desperation im about to die, so by instinct i might vanish going back to my rogue roots, knowing this wont help me at all, but it feels like it might save me. After i die, the raid leader asks, YOU HAVE TO USE SURVIVAL CD's WHATS WRONG WITH YOU??? I just cover my face. Umm i used everything i had. Well why did your DPS get SO BAD? Um i was using all my energy to ineffectively survive and couldnt pop out any sort of damage other than maybe a few sinster strikes inbetween all the other survival CD's i was using in the several seconds before i died. I know this will not be a problem when the healers gear up etc, but I loved it when i realized i could survive Ultraxions one shot unlike anyone else, but i die to this voodoo doll nearly every time without a lot of extra help, and everyone else has some sort of skill that can help with this. I had to switch a talent that would barely help. Now i do love that i had the ability to easily switch that out, and love how the new talent system works, dont get me wrong there. Just made me feel so bad about my class and made me feel more like a raid burden than a help. By the time we got to the Kings that fight went well enough and i didnt have many complaints there. Elegon was a rough experience. We stopped before killing elegon but i felt mostly useless in this fight too. I feel so squishy that i have to have NO stacks whenever damage goes out but guess what? Im a melee.... Gotta run SO far away from the boss, Terrible damage... Is there a way to maybe increase the damage the closer you get to the boss if you are a melee class? Anyway thats mostly a raid mechanic and not a rogue issue, but still valadating how i feel not only is being mele a disadvantage in a lot of ways, especially now that hunters can be as close as they like, i still cant be as far away as i want and do equal damage... Not that thats the idea, cant compare classes i know, and i am not and dont want to be a ranged class. Overall, after the raid, instead of feeling like a sneaky powerhouse, proud of my performance like i usually do i just felt like i had held the group back, and was a burden to the healers and the group. I felt weak and unable to do anything to save myself from several of the mechanics no matter how skilled i am. Just wanted to share my disheartening raid experience since i havent seen much on this topic.

Things that do work you say? I do love the new racials... wait thats not rogue... Um poisions upgrade was pretty awesome! Group stealth is amazing, if there was just more use for it and people understood it better... but thats not Blizzards fault, silly players... I love being able to heal with leeching poision and recuperate!! SO GREAT!!! I remember back when i was trying to solo ZG for the mounts before they were taken away. Rogues were literally the only class that could 'barely' kill them before we got recup, this destroyed my chances at getting these mounts before they were taken away, sad story but off topic. I love being able to heal like i do now, that is wonderful, especially since i like to solo old content. My only complaint with this is that there is no fast heal. I know we can get cheat death now, but there is a cost there. Im just saying, if we dont have lock cookies, and we pop recuperate, we only get 3% health after waiting 3 seonds!! This means if i know somthing is coming that will hurt, i have no way to provide any bump to keep me up a little more, maybe an option for recup to be able to choose to heal normally or instant heal for like 10% for 5 CPs? Could be helpful.

I dont even know what to do to fix so many of these issues, wish i had more suggestions because criticism without solution isnt very helpful i know. I just feel like my suggestions arent even that 'rogue like' and im no game developer. I just have felt so down on my class. Embarassing in the raid, painful watching my energy bar while leveling, and all through beta the coments of 'rogues dont see much changes because there is no need to fix what isnt broken.' Thats fine, because i liked how my rogue felt at the end of Cata so i agreed with that mentality. Then I would every great once in a while see a rogue change pop up on the patch notes and i would get VERY excited... it would typically have ONE or maybe TWO abilities on the list, and guess what? They were: Ability X reduced by X% or something along those lines. I expected some balancing problems while leveling but now that i am raiding, i have been able to see that my class is truly broken, feels akward, and like i am a sore thumb sticking out of my raid group. Thank you for taking the time to read my post and for taking what you can to help save my class. I want my enjoyable Rogue back!
While true, the abilities Monks use to generate Chi are not very damaging, while the strikes a Rogue uses to create combo points are core damage abilities. Monks need Chi to execute bread and butter damage abilities at all. It's not a very good direct comparison.

One should always be careful when comparing how one class's abilities work versus another to take into account all the variables.

Also: Hi guys. Don't tell anyone I'm here. You're Rogues, you can keep a secret, right?

While it's true that CP Generators are core damage abilities, it is only the mechanic that defines them as such. They do damage and they generate combo points, and CP's are our only way to unleash finishers, but my white attacks hit almost as hard as any of my CP generators when they don't crit. Core damage abilities should make up the majority of a class's damage, that is not the case for Rogues. White hits and poisons make up for at least 50% of a Rogue's damage, and this is not even counting other passives like SB, AR, VW, SV, Vendetta... At the moment we do very little damage outside of passives and cooldowns. Our "core damage abilities" only serve to manage our resources, not to produce the bulk of our damage.
1) We're too gear dependent.
2) Our crit chance is way too low. Ideally, we would like to have our +crit talents back.
3) Our cooldowns are too long. 2 minutes for blind/vanish, 1.5min for cloak were ideal.
4) Our energy regen is too slow (even in combat spec with 23% haste from gear).
5) Too much of our damage is derived from auto attacks.
6) Our mobility isn't where it should be. Ideally, Shadowstep should be baseline.
7) No new "fun" abilities this expack except for Shadowblades. Abilities that were once baseline for us are being reintroduced as talents which we have to choose from, which isn't very nice =(.
8) The frenetic pace of playing a rogue just isn't there. The play style just feels too slow.
9) My combo point builders don't really hit much harder than they did @ level 85, if at all.
10) Stealth drops randomly for no reason.
11) We're too squishy currently.

Boom. This covers everything.

-Mobility, energy regen and cooldowns need to be reworked. I feel that mut/BS and evis./envenom need to hit a bit harder.

#10 is a HUGE annoyance of mine. Like huge. Massive.
Nerfing rogues was understandable - HOWEVER, buffing other classes so much (hi 5 pets you are dead / Avatar warrior kills a rogue in a CHARGE STUN) while nerfing rogue is a bad decision.

I don't know how you will change rogue - after pvpin for a while as a rogue, 5 point combo finisher like eviscerate/envenom should be comparable to the type of bursts that hunters/warriors are doing, but they merely crit for 30k, which is laughable for what warriors/hunters/mages/spriests/destro locks/ele shaman/dk are doing.

1. with all the disengagers other classes have almost at base line abilities, give shadowstep or burst of speed to us as a baseline ability

2. allow us to choose among shadow dance/killing spree/vendetta ( i think this was on beta) as our burst ability on our new talent tree

3. increase our 5 point finishers burst by.... A LOT

Don't think that's a lot to ask honestly.
Bring back weapon passives like in BC!

Mace - Chance to stun!
Fist/Dagger - increased crit
Swords - chance for extra attack

This was always unique to rogue's, loved it!
10/09/2012 08:59 AMPosted by Fatrob
Mace - Chance to stun!

Dear god no....thats one of the reasons why we are still so hated today.....
2. allow us to choose among shadow dance/killing spree/vendetta ( i think this was on beta) as our burst ability on our new talent tree.

No. A thousand times no. Sub already lost most of it's identity by losing Prep/Step, losing Shadow Dance would ruin it all together. If you want Shadow Dance, pls go Sub. I find it hard to believe that the Rogue dev team is so short of new ideas that recycling spec-defining cooldowns into the talent tree would be the last resort. The first version of the beta tree was like this, and it would have been the worst thing ever had it been released that way on live.
It looks like this is the post is receiving blue attention to I’d like to throw in my 2 cents:

It seems like a lot of topics are being hit on so I will try to focus on what I have the most experience with thus far; Sub PvP.

Damage within Shadow Dance or Shadow Blades is great! These 2 abilities feel like strong burst CDs which are on par with other class’ burst CDs. The CD on Shadow Blades seems a big long; I would reduce it to 2 or 2.5 mins.

Damage outside of Shadow Dance or Shadow Blades is absolutely horrid. I have a full PvP set and when I hit plate wearers back stab is hitting for 7kish. That is just unacceptable when crit is at 17-19%. Backstab either needs its damage increased or there needs to be +Crit chanced added to it.

This is probably the biggest issue of the expac - we’re being forced to take Shadowstep making that tier of talents null and void. It’s impossible to keep up with the crazy mobility of every class if you don’t have it. Hell, even with Shadowstep it can be very difficult to stay on your target. I don’t understand how you guys can make our only gap closer a 24 second CD that you must talent into while warriors can talent a 12 second charge. That has left me scratching my head.

Yes, we can blow Cloak of Shadows+Sprint or Vanish to close a gap, however, Cloak is a 2 min CD and Vanish is 3 mins. Not only are the CDs massive on these abilities, but both of these abilities are a GIGANTIC part of our survivability in PvP. They are so important to our survivability that using them to close a gap puts you at a huge disadvantage.
Bring back weapon passives like in BC!

Mace - Chance to stun!
Fist/Dagger - increased crit
Swords - chance for extra attack

This was always unique to rogue's, loved it!

Nonstarter. For one thing, mace stun was broken in PvP and pointless in PvE. For another, it puts a burden on them to supply us with weapons of all those types in every tier of content, which they're clearly unwilling to do (and have provided some reasonable explanations for). Finally, it sets us back in the argument for transmog to ignore weapon type, which is about the only way we're going to be able to choose what weapons our characters wield going forward.

On top of all that, you seem to be in the minority wanting even more of our damage to come from passive crap.
I wish that I had more time to play recently. Work + RL = not a lot of wow time.

Anyhow, here is my personal experience / thoughts.

I have only ran 3 different MoP dungeons. Being only lvl 87 (dinged last night) I have mainly only ran the first 2. I have ran as assassination spec since the pre expac patch. I am working on giving Sub a shot since I was combat all the way through DS.

The average dungeon I have ran according to my recounts I was top DPS. I was top DPS on AOE pulls and boss fights by far. Adding the CP build on FOK is awesome for huge AOE pulls. Add that with the AOE finisher and we have some decent AOE DPS IMO. On boss fights I can pull some impressive dps if there is not too much of a gimmick in the mechanics... then again who can't?

Mut spec has a strong opener with 120 energy pool to use. After the opener, I do find myself waiting and waiting for my energy to regen. I do not like how there is so much reliance on auto attacks to do sustained damage. With no energy to use CP builders or even use the finishers themselves I feel like we have to rely on plain old white melee hits. It is hard to get ramped up for those burst phases. When it is time to burst I am often waiting on a CD or waiting for our energy to pool up so we can actually use our abilities to burst.

I still use my DS orange daggers. This is mainly because I have not seen any daggers drop in any dungeon or the quest ones are still not as good. When my daggers proc (they proc A LOT!) I am often so energy starved that I have to wait a couple sec. to even be able to use a single finisher to start the finisher spam.

I am not sure how to fix this problem. One thing i can think of is to re calculate how much energy regen we get from haste. Maybe let it regen more energy per haste. For example: right now lets say if you have 2500 haste you have about 11 energy regen per sec. Maybe bump that up to 15 energy per sec? more? less? idk... I need to hit lvl 90 to truly see for myself where we stand "end game".

The rogue community seems to be so flip flopped on the issues we have. Some ppl say we are fine (trolls?) some ppl say we need to be completely re worked.

Bottom line for me is that I would like to be able to use my abilities more often. I would like to be using my CP builders more and managing my finishers more in conjunction with CDs and whatnot. As of right now we wait more often than we act. No other class outside of a healer maybe plays this way.
10/09/2012 05:21 AMPosted by Vish
You know... I think they knew this would happen


10/09/2012 07:53 AMPosted by Maigraith
I see a few people praising shroud of concealment. Can I ask what you guys are using it for? Is it just PvP, or did you find a PvE use?

most mob packs have a detector in them

10/09/2012 05:00 AMPosted by Spug
t's a horrible design and it puzzles me as to why GC considered us the best designed class

we are considered the best designed because were the easiest to adjust the damage on
think about it if half our damage is passive its that much easier to bring it in line by adjusting poison/ white damage
We need better energy regeneration that doesn't rely so heavily on haste stat. We either needs more damage on our finishers, CP pts need to be like a Paladins holy pts and remain on the rogue, and our cooldowns need to be fixed. Take out the versatility talent and the move.
We keep popping out of freakin' stealth for no reason, to add on to all these great posts. Listen to your beta posters, eh? That's why beta is there, if blizz didn't know.

Getting kicked too from Sha of Anger groups, because "rogues are weak right now" with the other 3 rogues? That's !@#$ing bull%^-*.
Why should energy regain not rely on haste? It has always relied on haste from what I can remember.

Having CP build like pally holy power makes our redirect nul and void. Having to use redirect is a more complex way of managing CP and keeps us from having a dumbed down class IMO. Especially for pvp, building 5 CP on a target and killing it only to reopen with a full 5 CP on someone else seems a bit OP (even for today's rogue standards).

If they don't want us to rely on the haste stat as a whole for energy regain, the only thing i can think of is giving us back our passave energy regain traits. I would like to see VW reworked to stack with garrote and rupture. Right now we have to build CP on multiple targets and get rupture ticking to have that regain we had in the past. This is so much ramp up time, in fact I would say that by the time you got rupture rolling on 2 targets the first one would be about worn off. Having to time vanish to get that garrote off and pop CDs added some complexity to mut spec that is gone entirely and I miss it.

Maybe give finishers more energy refunded when used?
10/09/2012 09:00 AMPosted by Timat
Mace - Chance to stun!

Dear god no....thats one of the reasons why we are still so hated today.....

HAHA! I loved that spec sooo much!
Having CP build like pally holy power makes our redirect nul and void. Having to use redirect is a more complex way of managing CP and keeps us from having a dumbed down class IMO.

Two issues with this argument.

1: Nine times out of ten, using redirect is not a strategic choice. It's because your target died, or because mechanics demand a target switch. For the longest time, I didn't realize it was even possible to make strategic decisions about when to use redirect, or at least not ones that would make any noticeable difference. I finally had to get a heroic raider to explain it to me.

Now, I've never claimed to be an expert, but I'm not a complete newb, either. I read guides, and I do my best to play my class competently. I'm the top DPS in my (admittedly small and casual) guild, and have been since Wrath. That I've spent my entire rogue career without ever encountering a situation where proper timing of redirect was important should give you an idea of how irrelevant it is to playing the class most of the time.

I'm all for mechanics that allow the top players to squeeze out a tiny bit more damage through good play, but not when they annoy the crap out of everyone else who plays the class.

Hell, combo points on the target are even bad from a UI perspective. It's so awkward to have to look one place for one resource and another place for the second resource (and yet another place for the third resource if you take anticipation, and I reckon everyone in PvE will for most fights).

2: More importantly, two of our level 90 talents already render any decision-making with redirect null and void. Any time where redirecting is going to be truly important, you'll probably be using versatility, or at the very least gaming the redirect CD with anticipation. So what little strategy combo points on the target required is now a non-issue.
There is hardly a post here that doesn't say either:

- My poor energy regen takes away the fun, viability and hasty excitement of the class.


- The ratio of passive to active dmg is way too passive... make me use more buttons.
10/09/2012 09:08 AMPosted by Kurojin
The fact that a blue is asking what is wrong with our class and why we are sad, shows that Blizzard knows rogue's are completely under powered compared to other classes, and this is more so in PvP. Like Blizzard employees shouldn't be able to play WoW, because you guys tune the game to how you want to play for the season. Don't tell me someone high up at Blizzard isn't playing a hunter/mage this patch, those two classes can literally press 3 buttons in PvP and get kills from 40 yards away. !@#$ing pathetic attempt at making PvP at all fun to play.

Btw, thanks for giving us hope, daxx, but no buff is coming and we all know it.

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