Why we are energy starved.

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10/10/2012 12:39 AMPosted by Xefian
1. Preparation needs to go, just lower the general CDs we have.

The argument was "We may have to remove Prep and just lower the CDs, but we don't want to have to do that."

All three specs (not just Sub) had 2m Vanish/Blind, 1.5m Cloak, and even Smoke Bomb's duration balanced around the fact that Sub had Prep. To "get rid of Prep and lower the CDs" would mean Vanish/Blind < 2m, Cloak < 1.5m, and I don't know what about Bomb.

Instead, we've gone the other way. 3m Vanish/Blind (though, Blind/Bomb work from stealth now) and 2m Cloak ... even though Prep isn't available for those who want a gap closer with a CD of under 1 minute. Likewise, Bomb is still 4.0.6 balanced for being on Prep (though there's a glyph to change that), even though it no longer even is.

A combination of two things put Rogues over the top in Cata:
(1) Outstanding survivability, which as evidenced in early Cata made Rogues very strong, but not blatantly OP.
(2) Massive damage due to Hemo-patch fix, scaling, and legendaries.

To balance Rogues, both had to come down, but it didn't need to come down so far. Prep AND Elusiveness AND Step (or BoS) could all have stayed together. How?

It was Energetic Recovery on Recuperate alongside HaT/Premed ranged cps that gave Sub such a great survivability boost. Pulling ER off Recuperate and making Sub juggle finishers (like Mut) was enough of a survivability nerf. Losing legendaries and having damage reset was enough of a damage nerf.

That's all Sub needed, just those 2 things, and Mut and Combat could have been brought up to Subs new, lowered level. Prep/Elusiveness/Step(or BoS) could have remained.
we are considered the best designed because were the easiest to adjust the damage on
think about it if half our damage is passive its that much easier to bring it in line by adjusting poison/ white damage

I dont really think that's the reason at all. I dont think passive damage is good design. The more interaction we have with our abilities and characters, the better. When more than half of our damage is passive, that represents a huge amount of time and resources spent doing nothing "meaningful". It might be easy to tweak our damage that way, but it's still a boring way to deal damage.
I have often disagreed with WoWInsider's rogue column, but today's post does an excellent job of outlining in detail why rogues do not feel satisfying to play compared to other classes, especially monks, right now:

The official rogue forums are one of the last places that I expect to find a blue post. The community managers tend to avoid the class-specific boards, and our rogue nook tends to have a poor signal-to-noise ratio. However, the recent thread titled "Why we are energy starved" was graced with several blue posts from Daxxarri. The original poster, Cloake, was lamenting on the fact that our finishers cost both energy and combo points to use.

Several posters commented on how our cousins, the windwalker monks, have solved this by having their chi finishers only consume chi and not energy. Daxxarri commented that Jab, their version of Sinister Strike, isn't exactly a great damage-dealer like our generators, so it's hard to make a direct comparison. Rogues aren't monks, and monks aren't rogues. But the question remains: why does the windwalker monk rotation feel so much more active and engaging than a rogue rotation?

A confession

I leveled a monk. I didn't do it to replace my rogue, but rather to replace my holy paladin. I am using my monk to heal in one of my guild's raids. I leveled as a windwalker, simply because that's the most efficient way to do it. While working my way from 1 to 90, I had a lot of time to reflect on the monk's playstyle and how it compared to the rogue that I have been playing for so many years now.

The rotation is blisteringly fast

The monk rotation feels so fast. You've got something to fit into every single GCD. Once you have your full repertoire of abilities, you're going to be spamming keys like crazy. By comparison, rogues at level 90 feel pretty anemic, with haste rating decay causing our APM to drop significantly from where we were at level 85 with our raid gear.

The monk rotation starts with your 40-energy generator, Jab. You only have one core generator, and it's really the only ability that costs energy that you'll be using. All of your energy goes towards Jab. Each Jab generates two chi, like Mutilate. However, with its cheap cost of only 40 energy, you'll be spamming it like Sinister Strike or Backstab. You never have to push Jab more than twice in a row, because otherwise you're wasting chi. Jab doesn't hit very hard, as its only purpose is to feed you chi. This is actually the strength of Jab and the monk class, and not a weakness, as I'll talk about later. The key here is that monks are generating two chi for very little energy, and on a very regular basis.

Monk finishers only consume 1-2 chi each, so you don't have to wait for a full chi bar before unleashing a finisher. The windwalker mastery bonus gives monks free finishers every so often, which are easily consumed for bonus damage. Rogues, on the other hand, tend to favor bigger finishers to maximize our energy usage and our chance at a Relentless Strikes proc. Because of this, windwalkers are unleashing 2-3 times the number of finishers that rogues are, which add even more actions into the mix. They can also unload two finishers in a row with a full chi bar, giving them great burst. The key here is that monks are unloading more than twice as many finishers as rogues are capable of.

A focus on active damage

If you start doing the math, you'll realize that monks only have three sources of damage: auto-attacks, Jab, and their finishers. Their auto-attacks aren't going to hit as hard as ours are, specifically because of talents like Ambidexterity. They don't have poisons that are passively dealing a huge chunk of their overall DPS. Their Jab hits like a wet noodle, as opposed to the way a rogue's damage is diluted into generators like Mutilate of Sinister Strike.

The core of a monk's damage comes from their finishers. Blackout Kick, Rising Sun Kick, Fists of Fury, and Tiger Palm, which make up their four-finisher core, add up to over 60% of their total damage. Compare this with a rogue that will deal 60% of their damage via auto-attacks and poisons, and you can clearly see the difference in mechanics.

Breaking down our finishers

Looking at World of Logs, we can see how rotations are shaping up in Mogu'shan Vaults. On a typical encounter, an assassination rogue might use Envenom around 35-40 times. A monk on the same fight is unloading nearly 90 Blackout Kicks, 40 Rising Sun Kicks, and 40 Tiger Palms.

An ability like Blackout Kick will land for 50k non-crit and 100k crit, which is what your average assassination rogue will see their Envenoms land for. Imagine if your rogue got to unleash an Envenom more than twice as often during an encounter. The difference is that those Envenoms cost five precious combo points and 35 energy each, while the Blackout Kick only cost two chi and several of them were free due to the random mastery proc. An assignation rogue can't pop two Envenoms back-to-back, but a monk can actually drop three Blackout Kicks in three GCDs with a proc and a full chi bar.

What's really scary is that Rising Sun Kick hits 75% harder than Blackout Kick and Envenom (85k/188k), and your typical monk got to drop 40 of those too. How about that for some burst damage? A subtlety rogue with all cooldowns activated can land a 140k crit Eviscerate every once in a while. Even Find Weakness barely pushes a fully-buffed Ambush over 100k, let alone nearly 200k.

An assassination rogue's Mutilate hits for a moderate 24k/55k damage against Jab's mere 10k/20k damage. Finally, an area where rogues beat monks! Unfortunately, you can see how all of those Mutilates are stealing damage from our finishers. Jab's relative weakness requires the finishers to make up for it. Monks see their damage loaded into their finishers, giving them amazing burst and control over their damage. There's something very visceral about seeing big numbers pop up on your screen.

Death by a thousand cuts

Rogues have been turning into the passive damage class. We focus so much of our time and energy into keeping up Slice and Dice, making sure that Rupture is active, and managing Hemorrhage and Revealing Strike. We spend our combo points on maintenance abilities, and our damaging finishers are few and far between. Assassination rogues are twiddling their thumbs as they wait for 55 energy between each Mutilate, while combat and subtlety rogues are simply bored until Adrenaline Rush and Shadow Dance are off cooldown.

Rogue cooldowns are the only area where they excel over monks. While monks have the incredibly useful Energizing Brew and Tigereye Brew that give them some reasonable burst every 60 seconds, rogues have massive cooldowns that allow us to demolish our targets for 15 seconds every 3 minutes. The fact is that outside of these small windows, we are too weak. Too much of our damage is reliant on these cooldowns, which is hard for me to admit. I love being a cooldown class, but that simply doesn't cut it anymore.

The fact that our finishing moves cost energy is but one flaw amongst a multitude. The energy cost on our finishers ensures that rogues won't be able to chain too many abilities together, because that would be too much burst at one time. It's just three more seconds of waiting to go with the dozens of other seconds we spend idle.

The real issue with rogues is that our damage has been diluted across so many different sources that each of them has lost any real meaning. I don't feel powerful when 60% of my damage is present even though I'm not pushing any buttons. I don't feel powerful when all of my abilities deal a fraction of my overall damage rather than stacking it on a few key abilities. I don't feel powerful when my strongest move is dealing 75% less damage than that of my direct competitors. I don't feel powerful when I'm playing my rogue.

The comment section is also quite illuminating.

Edit: Forgot to provide a link so you can actually read the comments. Fail.

The thing that puzzles me is that Blizz stated way back in the Wrath class review that rogues were too dependent on passive damage and CDs but fast forward to MoP and we are even more depedent on passive damage and CDs. What's even weirder is that they now say Rogues are one of the best designed classes even though it's still plagued with the same issues they said needed to be fixed in Wrath.

I'd really love to know why they haven't fixed issues they acknowleged two expansions ago.... and don't tell me it's because they're lazy, something else is going on.
Sometimes I think pulling haste off of energy regen and tweaking energy regen speed upwards would make for a more smooth experience, from leveling to end-xpac raids.

It would sure save on these kinds of threads at the beginning of an expac...
I have to ask, and forgive me for being that guy, but why do developers feel that rogues are one of the best designed classes, if we're also the least played? Any class that has a resource similar to our combo points or energy seems to have an improved version.

I dislike how despite the complaints about classes and specs feeling the same because we have the same buffs, debuffs, or hero/lust, that the only reasonable fix for our mobility or aoe damage is to take away the iconic moves of combat and sub and make them baseline. Why can't the other specs have viable but different moves?

Why can't crimson tempest be a generator rather than a finisher? "You lash out against your enemies, dealing x damage, leave y bleeds, and generating z points based on how many you hit." Or give us a stronger aoe finisher (I don't know how strong CT is sorry)? Fans of Knives could be that finisher.

I feel as if there was a wasted lore opportunity that could've made rogue specs more unique. With someone like Wrathion hiring rogues and rewarding them, rogue would've gotten stronger which could explain our new abilities like Shadow Blades. It feels like a weaker Fangs of the Father anyway.

How I feel Rogues could be more diverse: Rogues should become more supernatural the more they work with Wrathion. Lore-wise we're one of the most ordinary classes. Even Warriors and Hunters are more superhuman.

Assassination: A rogue who uses poisons and bleeds to hurt people, while using drugs to buff himself. Seriously, why don't we have stim packs like the Marines from Starcraft? This spec should have a nature damage theme.

Combat: A rogue who uses fast moves to inflict physical damage to the opponent. They should move so fast, that they can set people on fire or set themselves on fire to increase their speed or close up wounds. Fire damage theme.

Subtlety: A rogue who harnesses the shadows around him to perform moves. They could move faster, do damage, teleport, something. Shadow damage theme.

Shadow Walk: Seriously, I don't know what we use this ability for. I see it as more of a pvp thing, which I haven't done yet this expansion. Is it good for PvE? Why can't it absorb the shadows around rogues to heal? Or move to a location? Or move a group to a location? Like a group shadowstep.

Expose Armor: Who uses this? Honestly? Between Druids and Warriors, there's too much drawback to use. It didn't work as a finisher, it doesn't work as a combo generator, so why can't it be a buff? A self or group buff?

Deadly Brew: Why was it taken off as a talent? Why can't it be a baseline ability that we get at a certain level? Why not rework one of the tiers as a poison tier?

Leeching and Paralytic: Stays the same

Mind-numbing: You can rename it and have it affect melee speed too. Warriors have Thunder Clap, Death Knights have frost fever, so why not include the melee debuff into crippling or mind-numb?

90 tier: Needs to be changed. Shuriken Toss is too weak. Why not make it baseline for leveling rogues? Versatility should've been baseline. Managing combo points is a hassle for target switches. If we can't have them on ourselves, or have them on other targets without losing previous ones, we should be able to use redirect without a cooldown. Make it a small or medium energy cost if you have to. I'd rather deal with that than have a cooldown. Anticipation is fine, but the resource should be on the rogue bar, not as a buff bar from what I hear.

Cooldowns: Each spec should be able to manage cooldowns differently. Or make a talent tier for Cooldown management. Mutilate rogues should have the quickest cooldowns. Combat rogues can keep the live version, but should be able to reduce ALL cooldowns through finishers. Subtlety rogues should be able to reset ALL cooldowns with Preparation. Hunters have readiness, and Mages have cold snap.

Recuperate needs to be like the Cataclysm version. Fully talented. With the energy return put into Slice and Dice, recup has less of a priority in sub pvp. Its current version affects ALL rogues.
I feel a lot of the issue re: energy is an early xpac thing. In wrath and cat late in xpac, energy seemed much more fun to work with. Perhaps a greater base regen with more tapering off later once the gear is better so we dont get too ridiculous in late game? Sort of to moderate the experience across more of an expansion. And for rogues that don't raid at all, gotta make it fun for them too!
From Ghostcrawler's Twitter account:

Alex|zNaTu ‏@zNaTuu
@Ghostcrawler Many said the Rogue dps is too low and the energyreg seems very very slow. Are you going to change something?

Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler
@zNaTuu Rogue dps in PvE is fine. Keeping a close eye on them in PvP though.


Clebzz ‏@clebzz
@Ghostcrawler Currently tanks are topping meters in raids with the vengeance changes, is this intended, or will we see it balance with gear?

Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler
@clebzz Gear will definitely help. Tank DPS won't go up much more. Rogue DPS will go up a lot. Still, we're keeping an eye on it.
this has been a concern since.......forever? I seriously have no idea why they haven't addressed this yet. Energy regen in general is garbage, and passive dmg is not fun, as is our talent tree. 90 talents are a joke, hitting redirect is fun cause why???? how often do I use anticipation past 1 or maybe 2 combo points before killing my energy bar? How is it that Shurikan toss is a loss of like 1k dps when your not using your primary combo point builder? I'd rather use shurikan toss as my CP builder, cause it FLOWS better than my regular spec appointed CP builder, and it doesnt drain my energy bar nearly as fast. WHY are the class cooldown still balanced around prep? Can we not remove this ability and increase mobility? is there some nun going to hit you on the knuckles with a ruler if you hit that magical fix button? Come on seriously, fix the stuff, its not hard, nor is it new.....
On the issue of "Removing prep and lowering cooldowns"

I don't see this being the best option for rogues. I'm honestly a pretty garbage rogue, but I watch twitch streams almost every day. It seems the common denominator in rogues like reckful, rzn, neilyo and various others have re-rolled to warrior is due to the removal of Prep, b/c shadowstep is seen as necessary to make the class functional. These multi-rank 1 players believe that rogues take virtually no skill in the current state b/c the bulk of skill came from careful and effective usage of the preparation cooldown reset.

Rogues are an EXTREMELY cooldown dependent class. I believe our 3 minute cooldown (including smokebomb!) need to be re-lowered (un-nerfed) to roughly 2 minutes, as well as some of our 2 minutes un-nerfed as well. But Prep must stay in the game for rogues to be a "skilled" class to play. In the current state, rogues are a "one and done", if you don't drop someone in an RMP opener, you're out of luck. And even if that is possible, that just isn't fun gameplay for the majority of non-troll players.

Also: survivability, combat-only cleave, passive dmg is BORING and un-fun, mobility is sub-par WITH shadowstep, energy down time is HORRIBLE w/ FOK/CT (esp as mutilate), and sub-par elsewhere.
Ok, I know everything I can say has at least been said once before. But let me just tell you that in my own opinion this has been my least fun leveling experience in all the expansions I have been through. When all i can do is auto-attack on a regular mob just to kill him its pretty ridiculous.

As a "sin" rogue, in cata jumping from mob to mob in stealth I made quick work of things thanks to overkill. And in raiding it was still a dps cooldown to use vanish. Vanish is still a cooldown but doesn't "feel" like I am stabbing and killing harder in bosses since there is very little change to my speed in my rotation like there was with overkill.

I'm not saying that overkill must return but in instances now I constantly keep looking at my energy bar and twiddling my thumbs. I can't get into a good groove in high target switching encounters because i have no energy to create cps.

I have always enjoyed being a rogue but now I find myself wondering if maybe I should re-roll to enhancement shammy or monk because I am not having any fun with the current status of rogues.

Also, I am sorry for sounding pessimistic but I am just being honest.
10/10/2012 01:11 PMPosted by Zaddik
I have always enjoyed being a rogue but now I find myself wondering if maybe I should re-roll to enhancement shammy or monk because I am not having any fun with the current status of rogues.

Just re-roll to warrior, that's what all the cool rogues are doing. Once warriors get the nerf that's coming to them and rogues get buffed (holding my breath) everyone will flock back.
If they increased our default energy pool to lets say 130 or maybe more

That would be great
1 level 87 mob gets me to 70% before I can down him. I suck but geez.... it seems to get worse the higher I level
I just leveled my pally to 90 non stop no need to eat killed mobs with out even losing 1% health

Since I posted Any pro rogues help me.... Should I even use recuperate I still die if I'm in a pinch and use it, it doesn't seem to hell enough to help?
2 days ago ghostcrawler posted this

@zNaTuu Rogue dps in PvE is fine. Keeping a close eye on them in PvP though.

Now this is neither an indicator to say they will be doing anything, nor is it a shove off to say they wont. Its barely an acknowledgement.

Meanwhile how can rogues be fine in pve if a monk in half green and rest pvp blues pulls 30k more dps than me (although I know I have a couple of items of pvp gear on).

I dont buy it.

People say "A well rogues are always underpowered and then come mid xpac the tables turn so hold out"... I bought the xpac to play the whole of it. Not to sit on my behind for the first half waiting to be able to take out that lv 1 critter thats been causing me a nuisance since launch...
10/10/2012 09:38 AMPosted by Maigraith
I have often disagreed with WoWInsider's rogue column, but today's post does an excellent job of outlining in detail why rogues do not feel satisfying to play compared to other classes, especially monks, right now:

I can't say I entirely agree with the column.

Envenom may have a lower damage, but it also has a debuff. A lot of Envenom's damage comes from using that debuff. Likewise, because it provides a debuff, you don't want to clip one debuff with a second Envenom. However, with Anticipation, you can! Unfortunately, while the article brought up some interesting points, it ignored all of that.

Likewise, the author should be careful about attacks "every GCD." We had that in Cata with Combat, and a LOT of people absolutely HATED it. It was too spammy. Speeding up the Rogue rotation might be nice, but hope that if Blizzard does it they don't go overboard.

Also, I'm fine with cp generators doing damage. Heck, I'd hate to have Jab. It doesn't sound fun to me. Now, that's not to say that finishers can't do more damage or that we can't have more cp generators. If passive damage really is so high, then certainly simply moving that damage over to be covered by larger finisher hits and/or more cp generators would be enough.

That gets me into, "What is passive damage?"

The author mentioned poisons and bleeds, but is that entirely the case? For a buff like Sanguinary Vein (or Vendetta/Prey on the Weak), I'd agree ... but that doesn't make Rupture, Garrote, Venomous Wounds, etc. "passive" because you actively apply them. Deadly Poison is largely a source of passive damage, as are the "instant poison" procs from auto-attacks, but if you get an "instant poison" proc from a player generated attack, that's active damage (even if the game doesn't present it as such). SnD is an actively applied buff to increase passive (auto-attack and poison app) damage, and maybe it can be compared with other finishers for output (and nerfed if needed), but there is nothing inherently wrong with its design either.

So I hope Blizzard is careful. Simply nerfing poison and bleed damage as the author is advocating isn't going to cut it.
The problem with this expansion is that there was plenty of rogue feedback, but instead of listening to us blizz went with what the other classes thought should be done. Almost 100% due to how we were in pvp.
Expose Armor feels hard to use. It was hard to use as a finisher, it is hard to use as a generator. Why can't it be a proc? If one of our moves hits, it should trigger expose armor. I think the only proc we've ever had was the dispatch one.

Venomous wounds: If I am correct, either garrote OR rupture procs the move, not both. It needs to go back to both. It needs to be taken a step further and allow the crimson tempest bleed to proc. It would help out mutilate rogues greatly.

Sub rogues need a viable aoe. It should be different from combat and mutilate too.

Specs need to bring their own style again. A fun style.
1 level 87 mob gets me to 70% before I can down him. I suck but geez.... it seems to get worse the higher I level

Take leeching poison. I pulled, like, four or five mobs at once by accident in Kun-Lai today, and I still survived. Granted, I had to pop every CD and spam shiv and recuperate, but I made it. Against a single mob, I rarely lose any significant amount of health.

Likewise, the author should be careful about attacks "every GCD." We had that in Cata with Combat, and a LOT of people absolutely HATED it.

Based on the existence of this thread and others like it, I think it's safe to say the number of people who dislike being GCD-capped is smaller than those who dislike being energy-starved.

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal, but I spent a great deal of time reading the beta forums and that massive rogue feedback thread they had in Cata (back when they did one for every class), and I don't recall a particularly large number of people who viewed combat's spamminess as being a big issue. Most of the people who were really bothered by it just played assas instead.

Honestly, if you don't like filling every GCD, combat rogue probably just isn't the spec for you. That's the combat playstyle. It's been that way for as long as I've been playing, and for me, it's the whole appeal of the spec. The extreme energy starvation and the lack of spamminess is what it is killing this class for me, and if it doesn't get fixed, I'll likely have no choice but to abandon this character in favour of my ret paladin or my monk.

Really, the only reason I haven't done that already is sentimentality. I'm too attached to this toon to give her up. But being a ret paladin is so much more fun now it's just sad.
during the entirety of leveling and doing dailies at 90 I would complain every now and then to my guild and my friends that my energy regen felt pathetic. that i felt my durability had gone down because most fights i would have to pop a recup and it would still leave me with having to take a break between most fights just to regain health.
I didn't really complain about my damage out put because I'm assassination and I figured I'm not supposed to see big numbers. its the dots that do the damage.
I don't use my cool downs all to often because i figure they should be saved for fights when i absolutely need that extra boost(minus evasion, combat readiness, and cloak of shadows, which i use whenever i accidentally pull ONE other mob into a fight)
I know i'm not the best geared rogue out there, far from it, and I figure as soon as i get some decent gear it might get better. but I would at least think I shouldn't have a tough time doing menial things like dailies so i can get better gear.
I thought I was doing something wrong even though I was playing my rogue the same way as in cata. So I went to the internet with one concern in mind. why was my energy regen so crappy?
to my delight I found this thread, on the world of warcraft forums no less! I wasnt the only person suffering from this dilemma. it made me ecstatic knowing that there will be a chance that everything will be fixed, with so much concern from the community.
I really do hope something is done. I really adore my rogue but I can only bash nails into my skull for so long before i wisen up

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