Why we are energy starved.

Rogue
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@Ghostcrawler

We like the rogue rotation. We wanted monks to feel different and they do.

Well I guess it's time to go power level a monk.


At what point does Bliz understand that how they feel about it may be less important than how actual players feel about it? Having someone in a dictator role telling you everything is fine sure as hell doesn't make you feel that things actually are fine. It just makes you feel depressed because you know the people in charge are happy to ignore you.
10/11/2012 10:19 AMPosted by Boardz
Well I guess it's time to go power level a monk.


Seems that way. Only reason I haven't already done so is because it feels redundant to have two rogues. But if that's the only way to get the playstyle I enjoy...

10/11/2012 11:23 AMPosted by Kaowa
If you're gcd capped and you don't spam your keys with a period that's less than your custom lag tolerance (or have some kind of autohotkey script that will), then you will end up wasting energy. I suppose some people will consider taking either of these measures to be "skillful" play, but I think either are an undesirable requirement and don't correlate with skill at all.


So what if you waste energy? If it's not hurting your overall DPS, then who cares? And if it is hurting your DPS enough to matter, well, your lag is probably bad enough that it's not your only concern.

And again, you can always play a slower spec. Why remove the core of combat's identity so that people who don't like that identity can play it? Yes, sometimes people are forced into combat because of blade flurry, but that's a separate issue that should be resolved independently.

For the record, I played a very slow computer with bad lag problems in Wrath, and I still enjoyed playing combat and did so effectively. My DPS even beat people with higher gear than me.

10/11/2012 12:12 PMPosted by Malganness
So after reading the 5.1 patch notes on spell changes. Gota wonder if blizz even reads our forums. Not a single rogue change. While everyone else is gettin cd lowers and buffs to dmg left and right. A few balance things nice to see. But we are left in the !@#$ter once again


It's like beta all over again, eh?


At what point does Bliz understand that how they feel about it may be less important than how actual players feel about it? Having someone in a dictator role telling you everything is fine sure as hell doesn't make you feel that things actually are fine. It just makes you feel depressed because you know the people in charge are happy to ignore you.


I read that - I thought of Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf.

"Let the American infidels bask in their illusion. I triple guarantee you, there are no American soldiers in Baghdad."

Aaaaaanyway, on topic - Yes, we're not there on mmo-c's datamined notes, but those only appear to be tooltip changes for the most part. I'm not overly concerned.
What works well for my Rogue in Mists:

  • Anticipation. While better for some specs than others, on the whole it's the best thing to happen to us since stealth.
  • Shadow Blades. <3 <3 <3 Something fun and exciting, but the animation/sound could use some love.
  • Those are my main likes. I chose Anticipation over the others because it's so darn useful it's pretty much mandatory for PvE.

    I look at other classes lvl 90 teirs and most of them get a cool spell or ability. Rogues get 2 things that should have been baseline, and 1 VERY situational ability.

  • Make Anticipation and Versatility baseline, or nix Versatility completely and "un-bind" our combo-point system from targets, kind of like a monk's Chi or a Paladin's HP.
    Currently, it is like saying to a Paladin "You have 5 Holy Power now, but you can only use it on this target."
  • Once that is done, fill in the now empty 2 slots with something new and exciting.
  • Example:
    Dashing Strike: Strike through the shadows to your current target, dealing XXX amount of damage as Shadow and generating 1 combo point. 25 second cooldown. Replaces Shadowstep.

    Something like that would be fun, new, and exciting, without drastically changing gameplay, PvP, or PvE. 1 extra combo point and some moderate damage on a 25 sec cooldown? I could handle that. I'm sure you could think of something just as interesting for the second slot.

    PS- For the love of the Light, please let Throw apply my Deadly Poison. It was rather useful for keeping some DoT uptime on a boss when I have to move or go hide (Morchok).


    I second this post, most of what I think is right or wrong with rogues is covered in this. Because Anticipation is pretty much mandatory it should be baselined. I feel our last tier of talent is by far the most lackluster one, other classes get cooldowns or some active abilitys that enhance theyre performance in a multitude of ways or grant them great utility, Rogues get a mandatory ability, Versatility but CPs should be built on the Rogue and not on the target thats somethign the rogue comunity has pleed for many years already, and a senseless ranged attack. Very lackluster final tier of talents in my opinion.

    Id like to add I think itd be cool if Crimson Tempest could proc Venomous Wounds, if not the damage part at least the energy recovery one (with some sort of diminished cahnce to proc since the debuf would be applied to multiple targets), this way youd not have to keep rupture rolling on your main target and could spend your CPs on Crimson Tempest and Envenom when S&D is about to fall to keep it up and deal extra damage to your main target while still beeing very efective on AoE situations, would give assassination a nice niche amongst rogues as the best on AoE encounters, considering combat is the cleave king and Sub is the theoretical strongest single target DPS one.


    I'd agree with these posters. I'd further state that Shuriken Toss should REPLACE throw--in the rare situation where rogues can't be in melee range, it would be nice to feel like we can still do something useful (and keep up recup on ourselves).

    My complaints:

    1) Cooldowns feel too long and dps is too heavily reliant on them/optimal uptime.

    2) Killing Spree should grant the positioning without actually porting us behind the target. Problem solved. I hate fights where I can't use it because dps is balanced around it.

    3) Leeching poison feels mandatory, for my healers if for no other reason.

    4) Energy regen feels. Soooooooooooooooooooo. Slooooooooooooooow. Rogue should feel fast paced.

    4.5) I don't want to ever be in situations where pooling energy (ie, doing nothing) or pooling combo points (ie, gaming cooldowns/bugs while doing nothing) is going to be a significant increase in dps, as it is right now. I play a rogue because I don't like watching cast bars fill up. I like to be always doing something. I got frustrated with my DK because of the clunky dual-resource system for the same way.

    5) Glyph of Adrenaline Rush is nearly mandatory for combat. Glyphs should not be mandatory to competent, competitive play. According to your stated philosophies, anyway.

    6) Why is crit STILL so far behind the other secondaries? I groan every time I get an upgrade that features crit, now.

    7) Combo points should work like chi. I've built up momentum in combat, I'm a rogue--I should be able to swap targets at a moment's notice and not have to worry about hitting a button (ie, sinister strike) before my redirect went through (because I find that redirect doesn't always go on the first press/click) and arbitrarily losing that combat "momentum." Redirect, and combo points, have always been a really clunky system for multiple targets. Seeing as that is so frequently the norm now (even to go as far as to make Combat outright superior on some fights because of ONE CLEAVE) it's time to change rogues a bit. It's not that huge a tweak.

    8) Parses seem to be indicating that while rogues are battling frost dks for top of the melee dps (no surprise there) ranged is still king. And I am so, so tired of that.

    What I did like:
    1) Glyph of Expose Armor. Nice. Also, that change from a finisher. Long overdue, and thank you.
    2) The debuff change with revealing strikes.
    3) Weapon speed change.
    4) Nightstalker being T1 talent. Very nice. Wish I didn't have to choose between it and shadow focus, but w/e, it's just solo vs raid etc.

    t;dr: Rogue feels very slow-paced and is not competitive with ranged, especially given the fact that it is strictly a dps class. Locks and hunters can now off-tank in a pinch (rogues can with symbiosis, but that might be better spent elsewhere, and there's evasion but that's pure luck). Rogues still don't bring enough (raid utility wise) to the table to make them overly useful, especially given that dps monks are now wearing the same gear and have far more utility.

    As a rogue I kinda feel like plate DPS/tanks felt with DKs introduced. I'm the "old" model that hasn't been fixed up yet. Anecdotal, but my feral druid friend feels the same. And feral has become more and more similar to rogue with time.
    See you all on the monk forums in a couple days?
    10/11/2012 12:47 PMPosted by Maigraith
    So what if you waste energy? If it's not hurting your overall DPS, then who cares? And if it is hurting your DPS enough to matter, well, your lag is probably bad enough that it's not your only concern.


    Wasting energy (i.e. sitting at 100/100 energy and not being able to regen energy that you otherwise would be able to) is hurting your overall dps. This affected every combat rogue at the end of cataclysm, regardless of your latency. The fact that an addon exists to report how much energy you lost due to capping, is pretty telling of how significant the problem was.

    10/11/2012 12:47 PMPosted by Maigraith
    And again, you can always play a slower spec. Why remove the core of combat's identity so that people who don't like that identity can play it?


    The "speed" of the spec is not the issue at all; being gcd capped while being energy capped is. The Adrenaline Rush glyph, for example, is one of the many proposed solutions that Blizzard implemented to fix the problem. It works well with current levels of energy regen, and combat (at least during Adrenaline Rush) now plays faster than it ever could have possibly played before.

    10/11/2012 12:47 PMPosted by Maigraith
    For the record, I played a very slow computer with bad lag problems in Wrath, and I still enjoyed playing combat and did so effectively. My DPS even beat people with higher gear than me.


    Wrath was a long and varied period for rogues, and the energy capping/gcd capping problems that have plagued rogues didn't materialize until the end when 4.0 hit. There were many other reasons in addition to more manageable energy to love combat rogues pre 4.0, but none of them involved us hitting an ability every second on the second.
    A problem = 2300+ and no one will play with your class.
    I shouldn't have to scrap my main toon that I've been playing for YEARS to send the message that rogues aren't fun, enjoyable, or that good as they seem to think they are. I shouldn't have to favor 1 spec to get into a raid because the others just arent viable enough to compete and will only handicap other players because of a class issue. The whole raid scene is practically dominated by the combat cleave scenario, mainly because it is the bread and butter button of our class, and theres no reason why it should be the only thing worth a darn in our "bag of tricks". The fact that tricks is still a dps increase for others and not us perplexes me, with energy being soooooooo slloooooooooooowwww, I have to spend my precious resource to buff another players dps, which takes no skill to hit one button, and its not fun, but if I don't, then its a bigger loss than any energy I could have spent on any move on my plate. Players should be able to interact with their toons as much as others, not have one guy standing there buffing another and have 40% or more of his damage as passive.
    Further more, this whole "we listened to players about dk's once and messed them up badly" mentality really makes me rage. If you have 1 auto accident are you then incapable of driving ever again cause your a bad driver? Mistakes happen, some on bigger scales than others, but there is also a way to get a compromise for both sides without just being bullheaded and saying stuff like "you guys are fine". Obviously the players, who pay the bills, are saying we arent while the 10 designers disagree with the thousands. Must be nice to be soo certain. We arent asking for God mode status, but dear god, give us some flavor.
    @Donxiong: I don't want to quote your whole post, but that pretty much sums up all of my feelings.

    Wasting energy (i.e. sitting at 100/100 energy and not being able to regen energy that you otherwise would be able to) is hurting your overall dps. This affected every combat rogue at the end of cataclysm, regardless of your latency. The fact that an addon exists to report how much energy you lost due to capping, is pretty telling of how significant the problem was.


    But we're still competitive. It's not as if combat was in a bad place in 4.3. Even if we did lose potential damage by energy-capping, our actual damage was still perfectly fine.

    The "speed" of the spec is not the issue at all; being gcd capped while being energy capped is. The Adrenaline Rush glyph, for example, is one of the many proposed solutions that Blizzard implemented to fix the problem. It works well with current levels of energy regen, and combat (at least during Adrenaline Rush) now plays faster than it ever could have possibly played before.


    Fair enough, but this is just another reason why Blizzard made a mistake by nerfing our energy.
    Is it me, or did the Blue contributed nothing meaningful to the discussion?
    Shiv w/ deadly brew needs to apply 70% slow.

    A lot of the remaining rogues are actually applying crippling as the non-lethal to get the 70% slow and completely negating the 4-piece pvp bonus.

    See my previous posts about how this makes the Cripp poison shiv effect 100% useless, or makes deadly brew 100% useless.

    Both Shiv and Cripp Poison were nerfed, and this is our 4 piece bonus, this is not asking the world.
    10/11/2012 04:28 PMPosted by Toshiok
    Is it me, or did the Blue contributed nothing meaningful to the discussion?


    Astute observation, Watson.

    And again, you can always play a slower spec. Why remove the core of combat's identity so that people who don't like that identity can play it?


    The "speed" of the spec is not the issue at all; being gcd capped while being energy capped is. The Adrenaline Rush glyph, for example, is one of the many proposed solutions that Blizzard implemented to fix the problem. It works well with current levels of energy regen, and combat (at least during Adrenaline Rush) now plays faster than it ever could have possibly played before.


    That's the issue, though. When AR is down, combat is slow. Assassination is also slow unless you're lucky with dispatch procs. Subtlety still has the utterly obnoxious positioning requirement to be optimal.

    This is the first time I can remember since Wrath that I've sat on my hands waiting for my energy bar to fill. And in burning crusade, I was ALWAYS pushing something. I think I developed carpel tunnel playing my rogue in those days...it was fun, though. Remember when we needed to feint constantly to keep our threat below the tanks'? I miss, and don't miss, those days. lol.

    There are plenty of melee classes that wait for procs, wait for cooldowns, etc. I'd really like for rogue to be the one that requires more investment from the player (ie, always doing something) but pays off big--ie, competes on even keel with the fotm ranged specs.

    10/11/2012 05:06 PMPosted by Varbog
    Is it me, or did the Blue contributed nothing meaningful to the discussion?


    Astute observation, Watson.


    I giggled. Like a child. My soul feels better.
    Im not an amazing rogue or anything. Im ok i suppose but i have to say im glad that great Rogue players are seeing some of the issues that I have. (CDs, Energy Regen, Mobility)



    Well I guess it's time to go power level a monk.


    At what point does Blizz understand that how they feel about it may be less important than how actual players feel about it? Having someone in a dictator role telling you everything is fine sure as hell doesn't make you feel that things actually are fine. It just makes you feel depressed because you know the people in charge are happy to ignore you.


    There are dedicated players in every class but ive been feeling for some time now that Blizz has taken for granted how well, despite whether we like it or not, the rogue community adapts to the changes. Along the lines of, 'They complain but they somehow make it work so lets focus our energies on other things'.

    I have other ideas and thoughts that i wont share because im always still learning, but i haven't played for too long (wrath baby), im not great at arena, Im not good with the numbers but i can see that more attention to the details of how abilities, energy and power relate needs to be addressed in this class. Also,we were a bit slighted when it comes to balance with other classes and honestly you cant NOT bring that up. We don't play World of Roguecraft, we don't play alone. (sometimes it feels another class can look at one and say give me give me and its ok, but not so much for us)

    You can discount what ive said if you want but though im not well versed in all things rogue every voice that chimes in may be able to get it across to the Dev's that we want to be heard.
    I giggled. Like a child. My soul feels better.


    Always happy to provide a little entertainment.

    On a side note, looking at one of my logs (just to use as an example) from this past week, I did 70k as assassination on Gara'jal. Almost 55% of my damage was from deadly poison (direct and dot ticks) and melee.

    Over half my damage was essentially passive. Is there not something wrong with this picture here Blizzard?

    Obviously not the same thing as just passively auto-attacking since keeping rupture / SnD up and everything else contributes to how much melee and poison damage I'm doing, but still... something about this just seems really wrong to me. Especially considering I spent the majority of my time sitting around pooling energy.

    On a side note, looking at one of my logs (just to use as an example) from this past week, I did 70k as assassination on Gara'jal. Almost 55% of my damage was from deadly poison (direct and dot ticks) and melee.
    Over half my damage was essentially passive. Is there not something wrong with this picture here Blizzard?
    Obviously not the same thing as just passively auto-attacking since keeping rupture / SnD up and everything else contributes to how much melee and poison damage I'm doing, but still... something about this just seems really wrong to me. Especially considering I spent the majority of my time sitting around pooling energy.


    That was something that always bothered me after the wrath re-vamp of assassination. I guess I always thought sub and sin were sorta redundant--a good assassin IS subtle. But does annoy me that it's all poison damage (isn't the point of a backstab or a throat slit or a double-stab with daggers to do physical damage?), and it especially bugs me that it's passive. Sure, keeping snd up and rupture up boost your damage--but even then, rupture is kept up for the passive it shares synergy with. If that weren't the case, it would be a substantial dps gain to use it in Combat (and it's nearly negligible.)

    Also, I'd love if we could get assassination and combat to use the same secondary priority (mastery is way better for sin, haste is still good, but mastery is king, whereas it's the opposite for combat) so that swapping between the two wouldn't feel so suboptimal. But I know that's not gonna happen. lol.

    /tinfoilhat
    I feel like the legendaries were designed to "fix" rogues' issues and temporarily placate us.
    @GC: Stop tweeting vague nonsense and come over here and give us an update.
    There are plenty of melee classes that wait for procs, wait for cooldowns, etc. I'd really like for rogue to be the one that requires more investment from the player (ie, always doing something) but pays off big--ie, competes on even keel with the fotm ranged specs.


    This is the soul of the rogue class for me. Honestly, if it's not that, what is it? Stealth just isn't enough for the core identity of the class when it only plays a major role in PvP. If stealth worked in WoW like it did in GW2, it would work as the core of the class, but it doesn't.

    10/11/2012 05:29 PMPosted by Varbog
    Over half my damage was essentially passive. Is there not something wrong with this picture here Blizzard?


    Would you cry a little bit if I told you my ret paladin gets roughly 70-80% of her damage from purely active sources?

    That was something that always bothered me after the wrath re-vamp of assassination. I guess I always thought sub and sin were sorta redundant--a good assassin IS subtle. But does annoy me that it's all poison damage (isn't the point of a backstab or a throat slit or a double-stab with daggers to do physical damage?), and it especially bugs me that it's passive. Sure, keeping snd up and rupture up boost your damage--but even then, rupture is kept up for the passive it shares synergy with. If that weren't the case, it would be a substantial dps gain to use it in Combat (and it's nearly negligible.)


    This isn't something that can be changed mid-expansion, but as rogues are lacking in class identity right now due to monks and other classes who have borrowed our mechanics, I'd love to see poisons made a more core and active feature of playing a rogue. We don't necessarily need to lose them as passive buffs, but I think they should be a more interactive feature.

    The new version of shiv is a good step in the right direction. We could use more, though.

    /tinfoilhat
    I feel like the legendaries were designed to "fix" rogues' issues and temporarily placate us.


    They've pretty much said as much.
    I don't have anything specific to share just yet, but I want to thank you all for taking the time to share your feelings in the thread.

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