Let's have an intelligent discussion...

So the Monk threads (at the moment) are similar to SPriest forums post 5.0.4, lots of incessant complaints about how terrible Monk DPS is in BGs, and lots of posts with people saying we're fine.

I think there are probably some issues, which is fine since Blizz JUST released this class to the public 10 days ago. However, can we actually discuss these issues in a way that allows Blizzard to see some actual suggestions and not "lol this class sucks bye"? It's constructive for the Monk community as a whole if we talk about it. Also, a general piling of ideas would be nice. I think we'd all like to suggest some things for how to change the class up a bit.

RSK - Is it really as terrible as the worst complaints are making it seem? Let's see some Recount numbers from Level 90 Monks compared to other classes. I know WoL won't have numbers for awhile, but it would be nice to get a preliminary idea from players. I'm not 90 yet but I'm already hitting 100k RSK crits while questing, so I'm slightly skeptical about all of these complaints. I'll keep my mouth shut until I see numbers though.

Fists of Fury - It's still sort of awkward to squeeze in to the rotation, do you guys think there's a way to fix this?

Tiger Strikes - I'd say that right now, my biggest issue is with Tiger Strikes. It's clunky how you spend so much time working up to your 30% armor debuff, and then have to continuously refresh. Working a refresh into BoK would be a nice solution, and I think it would make the time spent working up the debuff worth it.

Jab - Does less damage than our actual melee. Wtf? Expel Harm literally does more damage than Jab at level 90 and I don't exactly think that's right. Numbers need to be adjusted here.


Change the Flying Serpent Kick minor glyph to turn FSK into a Charge type of spell. Seriously, this would solve SO many problems. It gives us a charge, which is very necessary for gap closing in BGs right now. Also I don't know about you guys, but I can't count how many times I've accidentally pressed FSK during a boss fight and sent myself flying away from the boss. Right now the glyph is basically useless because if you're going to spend the time pressing FSK to fly into a fight, you might as well keep your mouse on the button to control when you land, instead of leaving it up to your aiming to hopefully hit an enemy mob.
The problem is that the PvP single target DPS is horrible.

Though, in PvE monks are still behind all other DPS classes.
The problems are mobility, survivability and burst. Because we don't have excellent mobility (keep in mind, the mobility options has a significantly higher skill-check than other classes), our sustained damage isn't being applied. Because we are a sustained damage class, not a burst class. We need that 'I stick like glue' sort of availability.

Perhaps, as a theory. The problem is not us, surely everyone has noticed that AoE CC is stupidly high as of late. I don't remember this much mashable AoE stun/snare/root/MC as before.

Either way, buff damage or make us move more freely!
Are shadow priests seriously complaining? They are easily the most broken right now lol.

Also, I think our mobility and survivability are fine. We are not a burst class, it's just not how we are designed. Because of this people think our damage is low because they don't stick to their target.

I think there is something weird going on with parries though.
The one huge major problem is we can't get the armour pen stacks in pvp which basicly means our pvp damage is gimped I think maybe using the 3chi might be ok but it will just make weaving in fist of fury etc super hard thus not desirable instead if it were given range so we could just use it at range say 50 yards and maintain the buff maybe just refresh the buff when used more than 10 yards away and not do any damage and that should be much more reliable and should almost leave pve unhtouched.The fact that any ping over 100 is effecting ww pvp is a bit of a worry Cause as of now it causes fof ,fsk, sfb all to just be very risky and only rewarding if u have a great ping as ur pretty close to the server for a huge grp Aussies,middle east that's nearly impossible so i hope there are some thoughts on it.For me i think fof should only activate when we have target selected in range like all other classes. Fsk maybe also something similarAs having only one class which has to aim so many skills doesn't suit current wow gameplay where all other classes have a free select target and fire option .
Tiger Palm is incredibly...annoying. I don't know how else to put it. The 1 Chi cost is weird when Windwalker generates 2 Chi per Jab, which causes the need to Jab > Blackout Kick/Rising Sun Kick > Jab over and over unless we stick an extra non-needed Tiger Palm in there. Fists of Fury breaks up that annoying back and forth a bit, but it's not exactly fun either. The 3 Chi cost is again strange because of Jab generating 2, and it's not very fun trying to avoiding capping energy while using it.

Windwalker's mobility is also not as great as promised: overall, I felt like Brewmaster was better in this department, as Clash is very useful. Flying Serpent Kick is incredibly awkward to use to get to an enemy, and even when Clash bugs out and doesn't actually do anything, I find I prefer having that option to Flying Serpent.

And as one final thing--having to aim abilities (like Flying Serpent Kick and Spinning Fire Blossom) is just frustrating for a game like WoW. Any reliance on such mechanics is going to hold Monk back for a long time, perhaps not unlike how Hunters were held back by their higher skill cap for so long.

My monk is only 58 right now, but this is just what I've learned leveling up. For the longest time, I was leveling Brewmaster because its priority system makes more sense and it has better mobility, but the damage eventually slowed me down enough that I couldn't justify it over Windwalker.
10/05/2012 09:13 AMPosted by Brewmook
Are shadow priests seriously complaining? They are easily the most broken right now lol.

It's more that all the purists started flipping out over how their class was changed around into what they saw as "dumbed down". Never mind that it actually became possible to perform competitively in 5-man DPS, but as is commonly known, many of the forum-goers here aren't known for profound intelligence.

As for the opening post, I doubt you'll have any more luck than I did in trying to get this point across; people can't seem to get it through their heads that the class was just released to Live, and that there is room for adjustment, or that nobody is forcing them at gunpoint to play any certain way.
I have a hard time seeing TP as an issue. It's the only thing we actually need to keep up, and at 20s it's in line with the rest of the game. It's also an extremely powerful self-buff.

FoF is a failed mechanic, that simple. It'll get fixed when Blizzard finally owns up to it needing to be fixed. As it stands right now, however, it's not a pressing issue. If they buffed the damage such that it was mandatory to use... but still high risk, then it becomes a major issue.

The PVP issue is basically same as all agility leather -- survivability has fallen woefully behind everyone else, and ability to burst is poor. Rogues, despite all the nerfs, are still fairing the best of the 3 leather melee... they have free escape mechanics if they get focused, better uptime with more control, and better ability to burst. Druid is next as at least they have stag and spammable root shifting, though it's far from ideal. WW is basically the epitome of what's wrong with the development of agility leather classes right now and how they've fallen behind the ridiculous amount of burst, aoe CC (esp fear), and defensive bubbles that others have.
posted this in another thread but its my thoughts so far....

I am just getting rocked on my monk in pvp i dont have any gear and thats understandable but really 130k chaos bolts.

IMO u need a glyph for jab. 1 jab gives you the armor reduction but puts it on a 2-3 sec cooldown. this way u have to use jab and expel harm as chi generators.. which u should be doing. why this? well if i can jab once get my debuff and get 2 chi then i can black out kick or RSK and the cooldown on jab should be back up after i use 1 attack.

The only reason to spam jab as it is, is to get the debuff up fast. And boost the damage on jab its really bad.

IMO we have alot of tools in our backpack but they just dont work very well. Alot of aiming involved for us. Our snare and root are way less powerfull then other classes and u end up spamming that just so u can try and keep on someone.

got my gloves and my chest now on my monk so ill see how i like the extra 5 yards on FoF. I got alot more issues but I want to pratice alot more get some macros working and see if its just that i am not used to all the new lvl 90 spells from other classes and dont know how to counter or is this toon as bad as I think it is.

I pvp exclusively I had 14 85s over 2 accounts so Ive played every class at 85 in pvp so I want to make a vaild assesment of the monk but I feel like I need time to figure somethings out and get better gear. But if I am still getting rocked by 100k hits in bg's and still cant pull off anything bigger then a 40-60k hit then theres deffinately a buff that needs to be added to fix the problem.

ps and sparing well thats a cr@p talent.. when does anyone hit you head on in pvp?
They should just turn tiger palms into a passive ability instead. Its kinda of a waste of chi for WW anyways, since i found brewmaster to beable to spam it with no chi, and by the way BoK needs to be reduced from 2 chi to 1 chi, i think 2 chi i way to much for the skill, which makes chi managment a problem.
and i dont know about you but all i am is rooted 24/7 then sh!t on. Even ferals are rooting me just b/c they know we are totally useless once we are rooted.
10/05/2012 12:26 PMPosted by Notamonk
Another Issue I seem to be having while pvping is the lack of defensive cool downs against melee targets. The only real defensive cd we have as wind walker monks is Fortifying Brew which is on a 2 min cd. Sorry but that won't cut it.

we have that its called sparring but its a pos b/c the person has to be attacking you from the front and like i said in my other post no 1 attacks from the front if they dont have to....
also expell harm doesnt heal for enough and healing spher is cr@p too I mean really 12k heals from them the only ones that heal for anything are the ones that drop when u kill someone but hey they never drop b/c ur already dead...
My two copper:

WW monk dps is low across the board. As stated elsewhere, I'm not seeing many monks parse on world of logs for pve content, unless they're a brewmaster, then of course they're rocking the dps charts. (Which also leads into the other question of "WHY THE HELL ARE TANKS DOING 100k+ DPS when DPS classes can't even do that!?!") Continuing on...

Jab hits like a wet noodle. Aside from building chi, it's literally a useless contributor to our actual damage.

Same goes for Tiger palm. It's damage is HORRIBLE, especially for an ability that is required for our rotation to function properly.

Blackout kicks initial damage I think could use a small boost, but my main concern is trying to maintain all of our buffs and debuffs, as well as trying to keep an active DoT. It's near impossible to keep all of these additional auras up and try to stack our BoK DoT to a respectable point. The damage that is done is added for each additional BoK that is applied while the DoT is active on the target. I'm lucky if I can get 3 BoK's off before I have to start refreshing RSK and Tiger Power. IMO, make the debuff last longer than 4 seconds. 6 seconds would be more ideal, that at least gives us a reasonable margin to manage our personal buffs while still maintaining respectable uptime on the BoK DoT.

Fists of Fury is by far the most ridiculous ability they could have ever given to a melee class. A channeled melee attack that honestly, leaves much to be desired. You design raids that require a significant amount of movement, so much so that finding an opportunity to sit there for 4 seconds and just... i dunno... play with yourself while you "auto attack" is near impossible. I really don't think the tanks want to deal with standing still because the monks are channeling their melee skills. I think fists of fury should become more of a cleave ability, like blade flurry. Having a channeled ability on a non-caster class is by far one of the WEIRDEST ideas I think blizzard has ever come up with.

Most classes do not have an execute, or burst capability, which is why they aren't successful in PvP. WW Monks have to apply 3 stacks of a buff, and a debuff, before they can even consider doing a reasonable amount of damage to an opponent. Tiger Power reminds me of the old Rogue ability Hunger For Blood, where we had to maintain stacks of it during fights, afterwards they made it a one time cast buff that lasted for a minute at a time. I'd love to see this model on Tiger Power.

I think mastery needs an overhaul. The rotation is too tight as it is to waste GCD's on "free" attacks. I think there should be a direct damage increase (just like every other class) from our mastery as opposed to indirect "free" attacks that don't hit any harder than their normal "at cost" form.

There are literally hundreds of avenues that can be taken to fix monk dps right now. I think blizzard tried desperately to not make another "god" class like they did with DK's upon initial release and drastically under-tuned monk damage and mastery theory.

Personally though, my biggest complaints would be how useless mastery is, and the DoT/buff/debuff management that is involved with this class, and remove the channeled melee attack and make it a cleave option that is able to be toggled on and off, and ultimately, a direct damage increase.
I played the beta some and the same issues I saw in pvp there I see here. And I posted suggestions there also and well as u see none of them got fixed before release. I hope now that we have a larger pool of people talking about the class the class will get tuned up. I dont want to be op I just want to be viable in a dps spec. I have 1 of every toon and all I do is pvp so I think I have a handle on what is viable when it comes to pvp and this toon is lacking.

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