My rogue list of improvements (Facts)

- Rogue damage is fine, a small buff to backstab and i mean small would be welcomed to make sure backstab damage stays a head of hemo with a dagger.

- I suggest bringing find weakness down to 50% armor pen, but increasing the lenght of which it last by 10-15 secs, this increases subs sustained damage by a bit.

- We could use our cd's back to thier cata cd times... that would pretty much be one of the largest burdens of this class removed.

- Maybe baking in crippling totally to the 4 peice, as in if you shiv, you get your utility poison IE 5% hp from leeching as well as the 70% from crippling, its really hard to take any poison over crippling for any real pvp right now because there is a delay from the 4 peice.

- Not exactly needed, but would be nice to make shiv what it used to be with no cd for removing enrages and make a new spell called Shank for applying poisons on the 10sec cd.

Things that i really like

- Survivability is as strong as you want it to be as a rogue, i really like that... Spamming feint is taking some time to get used to but thats ok.

-I really like the utilty/lethal poison

- I like how the specs actually do feel different, assassintion can put out nice sustain poison damage and go head to head with MOST melee with sustained damage. lacking in burst but thats okay. This spec puts up some nice pressure in arena currently, not much i would change except make the rupture energy proc 100%, seems stupid not too be, dont know of another dot that has a CHANCE to do damage.

- Sub right now really feels like a ninja spec, you do your most damage right out of stealth and through shadowdance and your a sitting duck just sitting in the open. Moving the damage to eviserate was a cool change except for ONE problem.

Since they moved energetic recovery to Snd, it makes it so we have to keep up ANOTHER finisher, making it Rupture (Hemo removed from SV) Recup, and SnD and still hope to get off a nice eviserate. This may make the spec more fun for Pve, but makes it a nightmare in pvp.

Suggested changes, Don't put energetic recovery back on recup, however putting Hemo bleed back on SV would help... I know you want us to use rupture, which it does a fair amount of damage now, rupture will still be useful for pressure, but it makes subs ramp up time a little harsh when trying to setup a kill in a pvp situation. Or have eviserate refresh SnD or evis... that wouldnt make ramp up easier but it would make the class feel more smooth.

- I really like how you can blind and smokebomb from stealth, thank you for that.

-Maybe smokebomb should have its cd lowered a bit since it is no longer on prep, remove the glyph.

- Remove prep, if you cant balance the class around prep and shadowstep remove it, cd refreshing abilities arent fun anways, if you dont want to lower rogue cds make prep baseline just nerf it a bit, only vanish and sprint and evasion.

-Contary to popular belief, shadowstep really isnt as shiny as BoS is, with the right amount of haste BoS outshines SS in pretty much everyway in pvp. Maybe bring the cd down on SS to 20sec and make it useable while rooted by not break roots.

Thanks for reading, feel free to add. Looking to get the truth about the current issues of the class, please Flavor of the month rerollers, roll a warrior.
sorry after this
10/07/2012 08:11 PMPosted by Narcotics
Survivability is as strong as you want it to be
i stopped reading
rogues are trash and not fun anymore
You can get all the strong rogue survival cds, IE elusivness, combat rediness and you can survive some serious burst, a lot of players arent adapated to how rogues play now... they need tweaking but arent totally trash.
10/07/2012 08:33 PMPosted by Narcotics
You can get all the strong rogue survival cds, IE elusivness, combat rediness and you can survive some serious burst, a lot of players arent adapated to how rogues play now... they need tweaking but arent totally trash.

Mhm... with combat readiness after a full evasion while recupe and leech are going the entire time your health still only goes down.

Edit: Elusiveness is good but not only do I have to press my hotkey for it every 7 seconds my health STILL only goes down.
10/07/2012 10:13 PMPosted by Sixsixx
- Rogue damage is fine

Right. Because my 4.7k Mut MH and 1.9k Mut OH is fine.

Just fine.

Not to mention my ENORMOUS 3k autoattacks. Woooo.

Those Mut strikes cost half your primary resource, be grateful, other classes only DREAM of such damage output............. :D
i smell a blizzard employee
I wonder if the mage in that 2's team has the heart to tell the OP he is being carried by the mage lolol.
nice troll

I can't speak to total damage, but my understanding is that the % total damage from auto-attacks and auto-attack procced poisons is ridiculous. I understand that white-damage is a good leveling tool for Blizzard, but it baffles me that it needs to be so high. Certainly, a higher percentage of damage being placed in yellow strikes would be more satisfying for the player.

That said, I'm surprised to agree with nearly every point you make. I'd like to respectfully disagree on one:

- Whether or not it allows Shiv 70%, Deadly Brew ought to be swapped with Prey on the Weak. It's a shame that Brew is not available to PvE and leveling Rogues, yet Prey on the Weak isn't particularly useful for either PvE or leveling Rogues. I know that puts it at odds with Dirty Tricks, but I see that as a both a tough and good choice.

I'd add a few others:

- Throw should proc poisons and be usable while moving. That'd lower Shuriken Toss' value without nerfing it, freeing up PvP Rogues to explore the usefulness of Anticipation and Versatility. For its part, Toss would remain useful as a ranged combo point builder.

- I don't see the point in Deadly Throw's interrupt. It's unlikely that during a 2s cast you will have 5 unused combo points on what's certain to be a ranged target. You certainly won't build 5 in 2 seconds. I'd like to see Throw's interrupt available on 1cp, but the spell school lockout removed. Alternately, the interrupt and lockout could have a 20% chance to proc per combo point, always interrupt but have a 1s lockout per combo point, or some similar mechanic.

- Leeching Poison needs to proc off all damage done by the Rogue, not just strikes. If that means the healing per damage needs to come down to keep it balanced, fine. It's absurd that poisons and bleeds don't proc it though.

- Prep, I agree with you completely about Prep. The question is, what can replace it? Of late, I've supported the following idea: Either reduce Vanish to a 30s CD, or reduce both Vanish and Cloak to 60s CDs. It's downright embarrassing that Hunters can "in-combat stealth" for 6 seconds every minute, Druids can Displacer Beast (without damage protection) every 30 seconds, Resto Druids can self-dispel and Displacer Beast (essentially Cloak/Vanish) every 30 seconds, and even Priests have some version (I don't understand) ... but Rogues, Rogues can only Vanish once every 3 minutes.

Of course, something would have to be done to prevent Vanish from being a DPS CD w.r.t. tier 1 talents, Find Weakness, and Master of Subtlety, but at least Rogues could chose to be stealthy/slippery again at the cost of being fast/sticky.

- While I agree that BoS is much shinier and Step needs a bit of a boost, I'd still like to see BoS NOT break stealth AND cost energy even if Shadow Focus is talented.

- I think that taking Crippling down to 50% base and 70% on Shiv was too severe a nerf. I'd like to see the difference split, 60% base and 70% on Shiv.

- Mind Numbing is extremely useful vs. casters, but not very useful against anyone else. That makes it a hard contender vs. other utility poisons. I'd like to see it have a different or additional effect. For example, it could increase GCDs instead of just casts. Alternately, it could reduce resource regen, increase ability cost, or some similar mechanic.

- I really don't understand Paralytic. It doesn't work on Bosses, it procs too slow to be useful on trash mobs and players, and entire stacks are dispelled instantly if a healer tries to clear something as simple as a root. I mean, really, what's the point?

- I miss Glyph of FoK. I valued it a lot as Cata Mut, and I think it would be a strong glyph contender. I'd like to see the glyph return and FoK's base range reduced to 8 yards.

- I still think that the Venomous Wounds' poison requirement is too limiting (duration, dispels). Even without it, VW would be much more limited an energy return ability than Sub's Energetic Recovery.

- Finally, I really miss Cold Blood. It really wasn't that powerful, nor is it particularly powerful in combination with Shadow Blades. Combat (Adrenaline Rush) and Sub (Premeditation) kept their CDs, I'd love to see Mut's return.

I'm sure I can think of quite a few more, but in addition to your list, these are the changes I'd most like to see at the moment.
10/07/2012 08:11 PMPosted by Narcotics
- I suggest bringing find weakness down to 50% armor pen, but increasing the lenght of which it last by 10-15 secs, this increases subs sustained damage by a bit.

Stopped reading here.

Edit: Ok, kept reading. These are not 'facts', they are your opinion. I doubt many rogues would agree with half of what you've written lol.
Are you on drugs? Well, I guess this post kind of makes sense from a PvE standpoint, but some of these changes would be even more suicidal for arenas than we currently are.
In another thread, Dax wrote:

10/05/2012 01:24 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Better to consider your class mechanics within the context of your class mechanics instead.

10/05/2012 01:48 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Still, we want every class to feel fun and satisfying to play, and I wanted to drop by and find out some specifics regarding why you guys are sad.

So of course, I went into all that in the other thread, but I'd like to follow up on some things, outside existing mechanics but within the context of the class, that would make me happy.

- Rogues wear leather for greater speed and flexibility, right? We've already got a small speed bump, so how about a small jump bump? Warriors are much more adamant about conditioning than Rogues, but show me a powerlifter who can jump higher than someone in leather, or a couch potato (read: caster) who can jump further than someone who's at least moderately physically active (and at best still quite fit). Rogues: Jumping further/higher since 5.X?

- Another thing neither couch potatoes nor people wearing 100lb tin cans are known to do is climbing ... yet in pretty much every Roguish movie, some determined assassin or conniving thief is climbing walls (and jumping between rooftops) to get in someone's carelessly opened window. Really now, flying is open just about everywhere, how about implementing some climbing? It's not really going to kill balance, but it'll add some flavor to the class.

- Ever pick-pocket a mob? How'd you do it? If you've been playing a while, you probably just macroed it to Sap or one of your openers. When was the last time you pick pocketed a mob you couldn't defeat? Maybe recently, probably a while. Either way, there's not much fun in it because there's not much challenge. Know what would be a challenge? Pickpocketing players, yes, players. Not from their actual bags of course, we don't want to ruin the game for anyone, but just from a magical, respawning, mob-like pocket.

No victim ACTUALLY gets hurt. But we want to make this a challenge, right? Allow Rogues to pick anyone's pocket, but require that they put their PvP flag up first, and put a lower-level limit (5 below the Rogue's level?) to keep things interesting. Blizzard could even make quests and achievements out of it.

- I came in after poison brewing, I'm given to understand it was annoying (I remember how bad lock picking was). Even so, with brewing gone, so is part of the Rogue's soul. Wouldn't it be cool if Rogues could collect or brew poisons again? I know, it's a spell now, there's no point, right? Well, how about something with a unique effect? A DP that did arcane damage, a shrinking poison, a drunk poison, a turn you purple poison, a whathaveyou poison? What if it only worked on mobs? Then, it wouldn't be a balance concern, just something to do for kicks.

- One complaint about Rogues, probably from the art department as much as from Rogues, is that as a non-magic melee class, Rogue moves simply aren't that visible or exciting. Subject change: ever watch a swashbuckling movie? Of course you have. What does EVERY swashbuckler do to show their skill?
- They balance on rafters or moving objects (try that ye anchor-wearing landlubbers!).
- They sip tea with one hand while fencing with the other.
- They fight two opponents at once, one on either side of them.

Wouldn't it be cool, artistically, if Blade Flurry MH and OH could fence in completely different directions? Up to 180 degrees apart? Not sure how the Art department would do it, but it'd be pretty cool.

And when do we get to use fun Rogue classics like Molotov Cocktails (fire), acid, caltrops, and the like? We discussed all this before the Beta threads became available, it'd be great to see some of it in game.

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