Heroic: Garajal the Spiritbinder (Blues Look)

Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
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10 vs 25 comparisons need to stop, apples and oranges, both are difficult for different reasons and neither can ever be expected to progress comparatively with another bracket. Gear in the hands of skilled players trivializes content, without a doubt it made the difference for paragon in the same way it will for us mere mortals when we reach that ilvl.

NO NERFS PLEASE.
I really hope there are no nerfs coming to _ANY_ of the heroic bosses just yet.
We spent the better part of the last 12 months crying about the nerfs to DragonSoul, now we're going to be the ones asking for nerfs?
None of you can argue that we're already geared for this content. Hence the nerf is needed.
If we can't kill it this week, how about we give it a few weeks of gear before REALLY pusing for a nerf.

Just my 2c

Let's keep Heroic, Heroic!
We are sooo close.....
The statistics that 10 man guilds are not very serious? Do you think that somehow the number of 10 man guilds that have done it compared to the number of 25 man guilds tells you how balanced it is?

Paragon showed you what a serious hardcore guild can do, they crushed the instance.

I watched the 10 man kills on twitch and the paragon kill video. You can watch it too. Try watching a 25 man heroic stream of the fight, its totally different.

Edit: Try looking at the kill videos independent of your assumptions. 10 man kills have the boss at 70% before the first totem. Nobody ever gets in danger of dying. Try only using hybrid healing on 10 man and that gives you a better estimate of how 25 mans have to heal the fight.


*Paragon showed you what a serious hardcore guild with a legion of people to help 10 to 15 gear up can do*. Don't get me wrong, they're WAY better than me but they're also 15 ilvls above most people because they had the luxury of running multiple 25man runs to gear their 10man group out. Seems to me that this is an advantage that won't go unnoticed by many high end guilds.

A lot of the complaints I read were about the burst near insta gibbing people because of the shadowy minions. 25mans have more CDs to counteract that burst. Basically Paragon's strategy was to clearly burst everything down as much as possible to make p1 as short as possible. Since they're nearly 15 ilvls above almost everyone else, they destroy adds too so this minimizes the burst that people were complaining about. Paragon and the other video I've seen have had their healers doing hybrid stuff too so the strat for 10 and 25 man seem fairly similar. Have to really give them a lot of credit for the strategy and effort they put in but what people should really be looking at is the average ilvl of the 10mans who have killed it vs the average ilvl of the 25mans who have killed it for an idea of what the issue is. If it's more than 5 ilvls, clearly either 25man is too easy or 10man has an issue that's causing people to need more gear. It's too bad that I don't really see our guild getting much of a chance at this boss before tuesday when they'll probably hotfix it but the few pulls we did definitely seemed a bit insane. From what one of our healers said, the burst seemed insane because if you take a voodoo hit and then one of those 3 people get focused by adds, you get gibbed. They should still investigate and see what the issue is. The people QQ'ing aren't normally QQ'ers.

Personally though I really wish Blizzard would just get on with making 1 raid size because this 10 vs 25man is really stupid. They all seem to have a couple easier fights and then a couple harder ones and we could eliminate that with a one size fits all raid.


The flaw in this entire argument is that it's based on the premise that 10 and 25 man raids can and should be balanced. It's not possible, the fact that 25 mans were stuck on 3/6 and 10s on 2/6 for so long is just one example of that. It's not possible to make each fight equally difficult.

Why do they have to be the same? They're not, no one that has experience of high end raiding in both thinks they are, so why is there this insistence on trying to think of them as such?

The awful specter of 15 man raids is looming over your post, the one-size-fits-all that fits no one, that's too big for the people that love the intimacy and individual importance of 10 mans and too small for the people that love the competition and challenge of 25 mans.

Why is it so impossible to congratulate both the 10 and 25 world firsts without ending up in a big fight?

Edit: plus everything Cremlin and Qarcia said.
Im glad the fights hard.

It's not possible, the fact that 25 mans were stuck on 3/6 and 10s on 2/6 for so long is just one example of that.


a few expansions back, ONE DAY didn't count as "so long".

there's more guilds stuck at 1/6 than at 2/6 but...who cares, once he's past 1/6 it doesn't amtter anymore does it?

It's not possible, the fact that 25 mans were stuck on 3/6 and 10s on 2/6 for so long is just one example of that.


a few expansions back, ONE DAY didn't count as "so long".

there's more guilds stuck at 1/6 than at 2/6 but...who cares, once he's past 1/6 it doesn't amtter anymore does it?


Please tell me you get the point I was trying to make? That 10 and 25 man raids can't be balanced to be identical? And that you understand that I was using those fights as examples of this? It's not difficult, surely.

Of course it's not long, but that's how it is now, taking months to get a boss down nowadays would be unimaginable given the level of whining that would erupt, the claims of it being bugged and 'mathematically impossible' (go Stars). A massive shame, but that's the game now, or rather, what the player base has become.
yes of course i get it. I opposed it since they announced it in late BC. And again when it came the issue of "ho many valkir would HM LK have if it were balanced 10 v 25.

I thought my stand on the issue is well-known. i believe there should be 10man raids, 25man raids...and perhaps other sizes also. 20mans like aq20? 40mans like...aq40? 15? 30? 35? why not.

but I dont think the SAME raid should be both.

I think a 10man Kara/ZA next to a 25man Gruul/Mag an up is fine. I don't think it's fine for raids to cahnge based on how many raiders you managed to gather.

VOA/TB could've easily been 40man raids given their ultra-high puggability and tuning for less than half of the maximum raid size.

The flaw in this entire argument is that it's based on the premise that 10 and 25 man raids can and should be balanced. It's not possible, the fact that 25 mans were stuck on 3/6 and 10s on 2/6 for so long is just one example of that. It's not possible to make each fight equally difficult.

Why do they have to be the same? They're not, no one that has experience of high end raiding in both thinks they are, so why is there this insistence on trying to think of them as such?

The awful specter of 15 man raids is looming over your post, the one-size-fits-all that fits no one, that's too big for the people that love the intimacy and individual importance of 10 mans and too small for the people that love the competition and challenge of 25 mans.

Why is it so impossible to congratulate both the 10 and 25 world firsts without ending up in a big fight?

Edit: plus everything Cremlin and Qarcia said.


Yes it isn't possible. But they should at least look into any 'bigger bumps or indents' and smooth them out as best as possible. I hope they at least give us another week because I can see my guild getting it down next week with a couple more ilvls and it'd be nice to get the boss down before any nerfs Blizzard deems necessary.

I too don't want to see a one size fits all but it would make balancing so much easier and eliminate this annoying 10 vs 25man that seems to continue on long after the dead horse has been beaten into a pulp. We should also get more content out of it because they aren't spending so much time trying to work two different raid sizes. Basically a give and take issue. If they ever have to go this route I would prefer to see 40man ezmoad world bosses or what ever, 25man LFR (since it's designed for 15 people anyway) and then 15man for all super serious stuff. I would like to see a couple encounters per expansion that are 25man or 40man and are actually a challenge like Halion kind of. At least that would give us enough of a break up so it wouldn't be too annoying. Honestly though I feel that 15mans are coming whether we want them or not based off the direction that Blizzard has been heading when it comes to their operating costs. Still though, I don't think it's going to happen until after MoP at the earliest.
Don't touch raid sizes please, I for one am not interested in taking sub par players just to make the numbers up, like it or not that is the main thing holding 25 man guilds back, not harder content, carrying bad players in order to have 25 of them.
10/12/2012 06:24 PMPosted by Cremlin
Don't touch raid sizes please, I for one am not interested in taking sub par players just to make the numbers up, like it or not that is the main thing holding 25 man guilds back, not harder content, carrying bad players in order to have 25 of them.

And 25man raids die because of it. On the other side of that, truly skilled players may join together in a 25man setting and actually kill heroic bosses with sub-optimal gear. So no, 25man raids aren't always held back by bad players when we're talking about some of the best players in the world. In any 25man raiding guild is still carrying deadweight, that group will replace the player(s) or die/go 10man. Simple as that.
Spiritual grasp dmg on 10man heroic is 55k and 90k on 25man heroic, so even if its same amount of adds with less hp it shouldn't be that big of an issue especially with 3 healers. After watching paragon video that fight didn't look that impossible on 10man, no one really came close to dying.
I think a one minute bump for the berserk timer would do wonders. That's just me though.
Paragon have a 10-15 ilevel gear advantage over most 10 mans, if not all. Obviously their skills level are at another level and the fact that they can execute much better. Most 10 man guilds do not have the luxury of Paragon being able to run 4 groups of 25m while fielding their players out evenly to maximize loots for the first week of normal.

They do have a slight advantage regarding gears, but this is not the reason/excuse to say that this boss is unkillable. Having less gears obviously hurts, but having good execution and a fair amount of practices will land you a kill in 10m HM.

Back to the 10m debate vs 25m is pointless, though most of biased opinions will go in favour of 25m; claiming '10m dps requirement is a joke compared to 25m etc.' Each has its pros and cons, 10m and 25m are totally in different leagues and should not be compared.

Lock this topic since a blue has resolved most of the queries.
Paragon have a 10-15 ilevel gear advantage over most 10 mans, if not all. Obviously their skills level are at another level and the fact that they can execute much better. Most 10 man guilds do not have the luxury of Paragon being able to run 4 groups of 25m while fielding their players out evenly to maximize loots for the first week of normal.

They do have a slight advantage regarding gears, but this is not the reason/excuse to say that this boss is unkillable. Having less gears obviously hurts, but having good execution and a fair amount of practices will land you a kill in 10m HM.

Back to the 10m debate vs 25m is pointless, though most of biased opinions will go in favour of 25m; claiming '10m dps requirement is a joke compared to 25m etc.' Each has its pros and cons, 10m and 25m are totally in different leagues and should not be compared.

Lock this topic since a blue has resolved most of the queries.


This is flat our wrong. If you 2 heal it in 10 man, you need to do an average of 62k dps on the boss, including tanks.

If you did 62k average in 25 man you would have to use one healer. Paragon beat the enrage with 3 healers by 20 seconds, if you used the 25 man equivalent of 7 healers you have to do 83k average dps to the boss as opposed to 71k. That is 15% more dps per person, which is not happening until people get significantly better gear.

There are plenty of EU guilds who have killed it with 2 healers, but only one 25 I know who was able to use 5 healers. Method hit enrage with 5 healers, the 2 healing EU guilds beat the enrage by 40-50 seconds or more. Just look at world of logs.

Of course most people wont read this because they are immune to facts.

Edit: For those who want a chart of Average dps per healer for both difficulty.
10 man HP 179Million
2 healers 62K
3 healers 71k
4 healers 82k

25Man HP 543Million
1 healer 62k
4 healers 71k
5 healers 75k
6 healers 79k
7 healers 83k
7.5 healers (same as paragon's 3 heal just for comparing including the 20seconds before enrage) 91k
our entire raid was over 88k - 97k dps + smite priest pulling 47.5k, your arguments regarding dps are dumb, we beat it by 10 seconds, the dps requirement on 10 is NO JOKE.
10/12/2012 08:23 PMPosted by Cremlin
our entire raid was over 88k - 97k dps + smite priest pulling 47.5k, your arguments regarding dps are dumb, we beat it by 10 seconds, the dps requirement on 10 is NO JOKE.


I did the math, post your logs.

The eu guilds that have killed it on 10 man have their logs posted, its pretty clear. The math doesn't lie.

Just because your recount, which doesnt work with phasing says something, doesnt mean its correct. If you averaged 90k on the boss, you would have beat the enrage by over a minute.
The reason your arguments are dumb, 7 healers on 25 man requires dps to pull 83k - anyone who calls themselves pro should be WELL over that... why is this a discussion? anyone who can't kill it on either difficulty needs to play better.
Also, you haven't taken into account adds... learn to factor in all variables before you throw out bad numbers with no factual base.

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