I'm Losing Hit Chance in Challenge Modes

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That doesn't feel as interesting. We scale the stats so you can't just straight up outgear Challenge Mode, but we still want you to have some ability to build an ideal set of gear based on the stats you choose.

The whole idea is to prevent outgearing while still making gear selection matter.

I recommend talking to anyone who did Challenge Modes in Phantasy Star Online how they felt about it. Having set stats with set gear is exactly what made it interesting and what made the time attack competition fun.

The fact that everyone was truly on an even playing field without the hassles of gear selection truly meant that the way you play was what mattered. The fact that consumables are even usable in Challenge Modes baffles me. The fact that anything at all outside the Challenge Mode has an impact on the Challenge Mode baffles me. If you want a truly interesting competitive time attack experience, set stats, set gear, and set consumables (if any at all) are the best way to do it.

"Gear optimization for Challenge Modes" on any level defeats the purpose of having a specific item level scaling point to begin with. It is not interesting needing to find specific gear for it.
I know this thread’s a few days old now, but I’d like to clarify the cause for concern here so others are aware. Balkoth, we were able to track down a bug pertaining to item scaling in Challenge Modes, but it’s not related solely to classes that use a spirit -> hit conversion.

What you’re noticing is a bug specifically involving reforging. If you reforge out of crit/haste/mastery INTO hit or expertise, then when the crit/haste/mastery gets scaled down, you also lose a percentage of the reforged hit/expertise. So, it's not a class or spec issue -- it affects all players who have reforged into hit/spirit equally.

Given the way stat scaling and reforging mechanics work, this is kind of a tricky issue to fix, but we’re looking into it.


Challenge modes should just normalize all our stats pertaining to our class. This would mean every player of that class would have the same stat sheet regardless of what they are wearing. Scaling always struck me as gimmicky and open to various glitches that would need to be looked at.


I completely agree. There shouldn't be any scaling as that just leads to problems. Also just normalizing gear puts everyone on an equal playing field. I thought this was how challenge modes were going to be, gear being normalized.

I'm just giving my opinion on the matter.
I recommend talking to anyone who did Challenge Modes in Phantasy Star Online how they felt about it. Having set stats with set gear is exactly what made it interesting and what made the time attack competition fun.

The fact that everyone was truly on an even playing field without the hassles of gear selection truly meant that the way you play was what mattered. The fact that consumables are even usable in Challenge Modes baffles me. The fact that anything at all outside the Challenge Mode has an impact on the Challenge Mode baffles me. If you want a truly interesting competitive time attack experience, set stats, set gear, and set consumables (if any at all) are the best way to do it.

"Gear optimization for Challenge Modes" on any level defeats the purpose of having a specific item level scaling point to begin with. It is not interesting needing to find specific gear for it.


I partially agree about the consumable thing. I really don't like that idea, as certain groups will have an advantage based on professions. (Remember that Goblin Glider during Blizzard vs Blood Legion?) I think you can get away with consumables a bit more than gear though, if only because consumables are probably going to be mostly used for utility purposes. Gear involves getting the theoretical Best-in-Slot-For-Challenge-Modes set, instead of crafting potions in hopes you'll be able to sneak by a patrol for example.

I think consumables/utilities that have any type of restriction, such as the Goblin Glider, should be disabled. Food, potions, flasks, and all of that stuff should be permitted.
That doesn't feel as interesting. We scale the stats so you can't just straight up outgear Challenge Mode, but we still want you to have some ability to build an ideal set of gear based on the stats you choose.

The whole idea is to prevent outgearing while still making gear selection matter.

I recommend talking to anyone who did Challenge Modes in Phantasy Star Online how they felt about it. Having set stats with set gear is exactly what made it interesting and what made the time attack competition fun.

The fact that everyone was truly on an even playing field without the hassles of gear selection truly meant that the way you play was what mattered. The fact that consumables are even usable in Challenge Modes baffles me. The fact that anything at all outside the Challenge Mode has an impact on the Challenge Mode baffles me. If you want a truly interesting competitive time attack experience, set stats, set gear, and set consumables (if any at all) are the best way to do it.

"Gear optimization for Challenge Modes" on any level defeats the purpose of having a specific item level scaling point to begin with. It is not interesting needing to find specific gear for it.


Agreed. I didn't even know you could use consumables in challenge modes! I really don't see any point for challenge modes to be affected by anything outside of challenge modes. It's a race against the clock to really show who the best players are and for it to be based on skill and the way you play.

Anyone at level 90 even those who just dinged should be able to just walk into a challenge mode and have all their stats normalized and be on the same playing field as those who have acquired heroic raiding gear. The only things that should have any impact on challenge modes are the players' skill and their class' abilities. Gear shouldn't matter and things like food buffs and potions shouldn't be allowed to work. I ser
10/10/2012 01:40 PMPosted by Zarhym
Under the current formula though, I don't think the solution is to make hit irrelevant in Challenge Modes. To min/max your character (which you need to do if you want to be really competitive), you'd want a full set of "no-hit" gear. It'd create a very different itemization problem, given that hit is factored into endgame set stat budgets.
No, silly.

You just automatically convert Hit on gear into a different stat, then apply Challenge Mode scaling as appropriate.

For example, turn all Hit/Exp into Crit in Challenge Modes. Boom. No need to create gimmick sets, and no more headaches with weird hitcap conversion voodoo.

Or, you could add up all the Hit/Exp on the gear, form a "pile" of stat points with it, then evenly redistribute those points back across the gear into all the non-Hit stats. Basically playing Robin Hood with the hit stats inside Challenge Modes.

Again, the point is just to get rid of a binary PASS | FAIL threshold mechanic that's gamed to hit a specific precise target, which doesn't play nicely when gear unpredictably shifts around in total stat allocation.
It makes me happy to see so many people who understand that pure normalization is the only way to really ensure perfect balance.
+1, gaming community.
+1.
Is there anyway to lock unmodified hit and expertise percentages, rather than ratings, upon entering a challenge mode? If that's possible that could fix the issues of not remaining hit capped inside while being hit capped outside, while also making it so that you still have to be hit capped with gear outside the dungeon so people don't reforge away from those stats.

ie Would it be possible to make it so that if someone goes in with a 0% miss chance and a 2% dodge chance, it locks them at those percentages, and ignores the ratings that normally calculate that percentage completely for determining hit, dodge and parry chances?
You just automatically convert Hit on gear into a different stat, then apply Challenge Mode scaling as appropriate.

For example, turn all Hit/Exp into Crit in Challenge Modes. Boom. No need to create gimmick sets, and no more headaches with weird hitcap conversion voodoo.


This is the same tech I'm hoping they'll apply to old raids and grouping with lower level friends. I'd rather they get it fixed the right way than some bandaid fix that lasts until they try to use it for the next thing.
"Gear optimization for Challenge Modes" on any level defeats the purpose of having a specific item level scaling point to begin with. It is not interesting needing to find specific gear for it.

Further explaining this point - having set stats on everyone could also be used as a balancing mechanism. If some classes/specs are performing too well or not well enough, you could just change their C-Mode default gear to be less or more optimal without touching the classes themselves.
10/10/2012 05:21 PMPosted by Ashunera
"Gear optimization for Challenge Modes" on any level defeats the purpose of having a specific item level scaling point to begin with. It is not interesting needing to find specific gear for it.

Further explaining this point - having set stats on everyone could also be used as a balancing mechanism. If some classes/specs are performing too well or not well enough, you could just change their C-Mode default gear to be less or more optimal without touching the classes themselves.


They can't do this however because of the nature of Challenge modes. Once the stats are set and people start making times, Blizzard can't make any changes to the stats because they will be making the time achieved even easier or harder to reach. They need to do a bunch of testing like loads of it and be 100% sure they have the stats that each class should have to put them all on an equal playing field before releasing it.

Also the current leaderboards will have to be replaced with new leaderboards for the normalized system. Make the old ones like a Legacy leaderboards or something because while skill played a lot in making those times so did gear and consumables. Gear should have 0 impact on challenge modes.
Here's an idea...

Trash Mob stats=(original trash mob stats * x%)*Party's average iLevel

Boss stats=(original boss stats * x%)*Party's average iLevel

or something to that effect.. im no programmer.. but you get the point

Could also be applied to old raids to make them fun.
That doesn't feel as interesting. We scale the stats so you can't just straight up outgear Challenge Mode, but we still want you to have some ability to build an ideal set of gear based on the stats you choose.

The whole idea is to prevent out gearing while still making gear selection matter.


I think the interest comes from when we decide if we are SMF or TG fury, which trinket procs\enchants\profession perk items we use. A completely normalized approach seems preferable to an invisible wizard of oz style "pay no attention to the man scaling behind the curtain".

I have not stepped into challenge modes but the appeal to me is that the challenge was uniform, if we can make gear choices to get more favorable scaling/distribution of stats its just like raiding.
That doesn't feel as interesting. We scale the stats so you can't just straight up outgear Challenge Mode, but we still want you to have some ability to build an ideal set of gear based on the stats you choose.

The whole idea is to prevent out gearing while still making gear selection matter.


I think the interest comes from when we decide if we are SMF or TG fury, which trinket procs\enchants\profession perk items we use. A completely normalized approach seems preferable to an invisible wizard of oz style "pay no attention to the man scaling behind the curtain".

I have not stepped into challenge modes but the appeal to me is that the challenge was uniform, if we can make gear choices to get more favorable scaling/distribution of stats its just like raiding.
I don't like just giving everyone the same gear because it takes out the element of challenge from finding the set of gear that is best for you once it's scaled down.

IMO the best solution is to have another section of the character tab that shows your stats once they've been scaled down, and let the players manage their own stats. Keep it exactly like it is, if I choose to reforge something to hit and it gets scaled down so i'm below hit cap, fine, but it's my choice.
They can't do this however because of the nature of Challenge modes. Once the stats are set and people start making times, Blizzard can't make any changes to the stats because they will be making the time achieved even easier or harder to reach. They need to do a bunch of testing like loads of it and be 100% sure they have the stats that each class should have to put them all on an equal playing field before releasing it.

Also the current leaderboards will have to be replaced with new leaderboards for the normalized system. Make the old ones like a Legacy leaderboards or something because while skill played a lot in making those times so did gear and consumables. Gear should have 0 impact on challenge modes.


Uh so what happens when they make balance changes like reducing the damage of deep wounds for protection warriors?

Stats, balancing and tweaks will always happen in wow, as long as the challenge remains its relative difficulty its absolute difficulty can change... (I think i just made the case against normalization which I am all for).
They can't do this however because of the nature of Challenge modes. Once the stats are set and people start making times, Blizzard can't make any changes to the stats because they will be making the time achieved even easier or harder to reach. They need to do a bunch of testing like loads of it and be 100% sure they have the stats that each class should have to put them all on an equal playing field before releasing it.

Also the current leaderboards will have to be replaced with new leaderboards for the normalized system. Make the old ones like a Legacy leaderboards or something because while skill played a lot in making those times so did gear and consumables. Gear should have 0 impact on challenge modes.


Uh so what happens when they make balance changes like reducing the damage of deep wounds for protection warriors?

Stats, balancing and tweaks will always happen in wow, as long as the challenge remains its relative difficulty its absolute difficulty can change... (I think i just made the case against normalization which I am all for).


:| Lol I forgot that classes are always being tweaked and changed for balance. Still though I believe that challenge modes should have normalized stats, put's everyone on the same level. When gear becomes a factor it just makes things almost unfair. Raiders have access to a much larger variety of gear to choose from to get the stats they want opposed to casual players who just do heroics and grind vp and jp.

Then RNG plays a game in it too, some people can go months without seeing that item they want so bad to drop that gives them the stats they want and need and other players can get it on their first run.

If challenge modes are really meant to be there for leaderboard rankings then I think it's only fair to put everyone on an equal level. It's like a racing game, if I'm racing my friends and I have unlocked all the cars on my profile and he's only half way done and I pick my fastest car and beat him with it I don't feel like "I'm the better player because I beat you by 4 seconds" because I was using a car that he didn't have access to and mine was better. To see who is the better racer we would either both choose the same car and go for it.

It's like Top Gear's "Put a star in a reasonably priced car" They have a leader board to see who's the fastest celebrity to go around their track in the same car. Those celebrities don't get to modify the car in any way what so ever. They are just given the same car as all the others that raced before and will race after. That way they know who was actually the fastest driver around their track. That's how it should work, put everyone on the same level. Leave gear decisions, professions and what not for everything outside of challenge modes.
10/10/2012 06:50 PMPosted by Helagoth
I don't like just giving everyone the same gear because it takes out the element of challenge from finding the set of gear


If finding the best set of gear is part of the challenge, why bother scaling down gear in the first place? The challenge is diluted when you can cherry pick the best gear/stats you want. Heck the perfect itemized gear might not be available and scailing might affect classes differently.

Also think about items that are over/under budget, most recently would be that trinket that had stamina added.

Mathematically these things might only be very slight anomalies but to me it tarnishes the whole system by thinking "gee I could have gotta half a second off that time if only I had X item drop because they messed up its item budget or the rounding arithmetic on the scaling", when the real focus should be "gee how can we play better to bring our time down".
If finding the best set of gear is part of the challenge, why bother scaling down gear in the first place? The challenge is diluted when you can cherry pick the best gear/stats you want. Heck the perfect itemized gear might not be available and scailing might affect classes differently.


Because if you don't scale it down, then you at some point just outgear it. And if you just give people a "challenge mode set" then some classes will have gear that suits them better, or just mathematically can do more dps. The classes/specs that are sub-par will not be as viable. This of course is happening all the time, but if you have a fixed "challenge mode gearset" that doesn't change, then the sub-par spec's will never change.

If at some point, say with the next tier of raiding, the new T15 gear is itemized differently and when scaled down changes which are the sub-par specs, then we get some ebb and flow to which classes/specs are the best, adding another level to the challenge of it.

To me, part of playing the game is to figure out how to best optimize your character. Not just how to push your buttons in the best order. If they give everyone the same gear, they remove part of the game.
I suggest.. When you walk in

There's an NPC at the front. He hit caps you, and gives you the iLevel then gives you a choice of other secondary stats, which are set in stone until the end.

Talk to him to start the timer after everybody has chosen the stats.
You just automatically convert Hit on gear into a different stat, then apply Challenge Mode scaling as appropriate.

For example, turn all Hit/Exp into Crit in Challenge Modes. Boom. No need to create gimmick sets, and no more headaches with weird hitcap conversion voodoo.


If you turn hit into crit, then classes that don't like crit will not bring any hit into challenge modes, so you have the exact same problem of people gearing out of hit. Same with making it haste, parry, spirit, dodge, block, or mastery. There is always a class who doesn't want X stat at all.

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