What if Garrosh kills...

Moon Guard
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Show me one Gilnean militiamen that does not have a rifle. Mind you, this might just be game mechanics, but it seems like by and large the Gilnean populace has been armed for the crisis.

Industrial capacity allowed that, most likely.


The drowning ones.

http://tinyurl.com/3jsor4h


If there's a huge earthquake and you drown, I don't think you're going to hold onto a weapon.


The drowning ones.

http://tinyurl.com/3jsor4h


If there's a huge earthquake and you drown, I don't think you're going to hold onto a weapon.


I don't know why, but the giant smiley face thing makes me think you're taking what he said a bit too seriously.
10/10/2012 04:09 PMPosted by Maoseitun
He's a strong warrior, he has some talent when it comes to magic (Avatar Form, Holy Light) - reading his biography on wowpedia shows that he has served on the frontlines - a knight in the Second War. He also doesn't blame the orcs for the death of his family, it rests firmly at the feet of the elves - interesting to note.


So he doesn't blame the Orcs, the people doing the slaughtering, for the deaths of his family, but the elves for not stopping the Orcs?

10/10/2012 04:09 PMPosted by Maoseitun
What's more, during the Third War, he was the only unifying force in Lordaeron - this has to speak to the man's charisma as a leader. That even an elf prince would kneel to the orders of a human general also speaks in the favor of Garithos.


He was the Grand Marshal. Of course people flocked to him. And as it was said, he only got that title because of his daddy.

10/10/2012 04:09 PMPosted by Maoseitun
Imprisonment of Kael'thas? Acceptable and logical - he consorted with enemies of almost all the races twice now, how can he trust Kael and the Blood Elves?


Er... The Naga were unknowns and, in fact, the Night Elves didn't even know about them until they attacked. Which was literally two weeks since the events of the Blood Elf campaign. Furthermore, the Naga aided the Alliance cause.

Lets not forget he pretty much sent the Blood Elves on suicide. That is not logical, he is wasting troops, valuable troops, ones who didn't actually do wrong. He could've killed Kael and be done with it, except he made the point of executing every, last, Blood Elf. That wasn't imprisonment, that was waiting for you to be executed in the morning.

10/10/2012 04:09 PMPosted by Maoseitun
He pushes the Scourge back into the Plaguelands with only the remnants of Lordaeron and whatever dwarves he still has left - is ultimately confronted and defeated by both Detheroc and Balnazzar, then is later freed by Sylvanas.


We don't know how the battle with Detheroc and Balnazzar went down. We also do not know how much front line combat he was doing as a commander, especially since he was the kind of person to leave the front lines to issue orders to Kael.

10/10/2012 04:09 PMPosted by Maoseitun
His most tactically unsound decision in all of this is believing Sylvanas and trusting her.


And not using the vastly skilled, both magical and martial, Blood Elves. Or going to execute an entire racial military for one person's decision. Or generally berating and lowering the moral of his troops. Or trying to bully the woman with a demon at her side.

10/10/2012 04:09 PMPosted by Maoseitun
Actually, looking over the whole thing... Garithos is more impressive than I initially thought.


The man was a bigot and only obtained the rank of Grand Marshal because of his father. If it weren't for that title, he wouldn't have led to Alliance forces. Furthermore, you're trying to attribute, again, the fact that because Dreadlords beat him that Dreadlords are the minimum needed to beat him.

Considering Varimathras outright slaughtered him with a single hit, with actual warning I might add, I'd say that benchmark is set a lot higher than it really is. When a Dreadlord can rip you apart, from the front, with somebody actually telling you that is what is going to happen, you're not on par with them.

Garithos was not even close to on par with Detheroc, Balnazzar or Varimathras. It didn't "take a dreadlord to subdue him", it just happened that a Dreadlord mentally dominated him before he got killed by something else.


If there's a huge earthquake and you drown, I don't think you're going to hold onto a weapon.


I don't know why, but the giant smiley face thing makes me think you're taking what he said a bit too seriously.


I just thought it was passive-aggressive and sort of rude. I really wish I could have a legitimate debate without people doing stuff like that.
The drowning ones.

http://tinyurl.com/3jsor4h


... seriously? Try and actually respond seriously to him instead of deflecting with sarcasm.
The drowning ones.

http://tinyurl.com/3jsor4h


... seriously? Try and actually respond seriously to him instead of deflecting with sarcasm.


I've always preferred to err on the side of possibly looking like the fool, rather then looking like the mocker.

To each their own, though.
Frostytroll


I think we were arguing two different points. You're right it'd be technically possible to defeat the Forsaken, and even to have fair numbers of remaining, organized troops afterwards.

I just don't think it'd be at all likely or that the orcs would have the forces to keep fighting their other enemies. I'm looking primarily at the outcome and how it would affect the world as a whole, rather than specifically a war against the Forsaken.
I think it all depends on how Garrosh kills Sylvanas, assuming this scenario plays out. If he kills her for defying his orders and doing something more evil, then that will just build sympathy for Garrosh (don't use the plague, she uses the plague, he kills her, he seems like the good guy).

However, if he orders her to do something evil and she refuses (even out of self interest, say she doesn't want to doom her entire military to perma-death), and he kills her for refusing, then that paints him in a darker light.

That said, Sylvanas could take Garrosh. Remember, in WC3 she had Charm. She could literally mind control people. And her banshees could possess people. I really wish this would be brought back, because that's a large part of what makes the Forsaken such a terrifying force, not this "plague" that's barrels of weird toxic ooze (should be a gnomish weapon).
Sylvanas will not die simply because there is no Forsaken suitable to take her place. None have been fleshed out enough for the position.
10/10/2012 04:37 PMPosted by Finaj
Sylvanas will not die simply because there is no Forsaken suitable to take her place. None have been fleshed out enough for the position.


This is implying blizzard cares about character development.
10/10/2012 04:23 PMPosted by Melyria
So he doesn't blame the Orcs, the people doing the slaughtering, for the deaths of his family, but the elves for not stopping the Orcs?


Yep. It's like... if a bear kills your family, and there was a guy with a gun that could kill the bear -right there- but he did nothing? I'd blame the guy.

Remember, even during the Third War, the orcs were thought to be no better than simple beasts.


He was the Grand Marshal. Of course people flocked to him. And as it was said, he only got that title because of his daddy.


Once again - you can get a position because of nepotism but that doesn't mean the person receiving the position cannot function within said position.

You're acting like if my father got me a job at Cracker Barrel to wait tables, that I would suck at being a waiter.

A =/= B

Er... The Naga were unknowns and, in fact, the Night Elves didn't even know about them until they attacked. Which was literally two weeks since the events of the Blood Elf campaign. Furthermore, the Naga aided the Alliance cause.


If the Naga were unknown, Mely, answer me how Garithos can say;

Grand Marshal Garithos: "I received ill news from the front line. Is it true that you've consorted with the vile naga?"

Is Garithos now a seer? Is he a mind-reader, maybe?

The naga were known, at least in the lands of humanity, long enough for them to be seen as a distasteful race in the eyes of humanity.

Lets not forget he pretty much sent the Blood Elves on suicide. That is not logical, he is wasting troops, valuable troops, ones who didn't actually do wrong. He could've killed Kael and be done with it, except he made the point of executing every, last, Blood Elf. That wasn't imprisonment, that was waiting for you to be executed in the morning.


Because an elf is willingly going to follow a guy who executes their last monarch.

AND BEFORE YOU DO THIS BECAUSE I KNOW YOU WILL

Garithos, if he did come back, would probably spend time gaining the trust, loyalty and etc. of the human-Forsaken, not just walk up and cut Sylvanas' head from her shoulders.

We don't know how the battle with Detheroc and Balnazzar went down. We also do not know how much front line combat he was doing as a commander, especially since he was the kind of person to leave the front lines to issue orders to Kael.


Left the frontlines to give orders to troops, returned to the front, heard about troops consorting with long-time enemies, leaves the front to reprimand troops, then returns to the front.

It still centered around the requirement of two Dreadlords plotting to make sure the forces stalled before reaching the Plaguelands... this... I mean c'mon, even you have to admit a single human with an army requiring two Dreadlords to come together to plot warrants some note for the man.

And not using the vastly skilled, both magical and martial, Blood Elves. Or going to execute an entire racial military for one person's decision. Or generally berating and lowering the moral of his troops. Or trying to bully the woman with a demon at her side.


Blood Elves - severely weakened state, Kael has only the strongest ones with him and they're still a ragged force. He has manpower, he doesn't have extremely potent magical power: Blood Elves do - Blood Elves more useful for repairing magical structures than fighting at the current time.

Wasn't their entire military. They could be considered traitors, however, and even if he only executed Kael it'd be asking for trouble later. Berated non-humans, generally liked the humans. Bullying the woman who came to him for help... yeah.

Bigot. Commander. Dreadlords.


The man was only a bigot to elves and dwarves. He quite liked the pandaren. Also, the Dreadlord thing I'll answer below.

So it still took a Dreadlord to kill him! Also it's not really warning when he's making a speech and the warning is 'Kill him too.'

Because at that point it's a 'What the !@#$ just happened?' Now if he had someone tell him right before Balnazzar died 'The elf will betray you by making use of her pet demon.' that's a warning.

You're right, it took two to subdue him.
The drowning ones.

http://tinyurl.com/3jsor4h


... seriously? Try and actually respond seriously to him instead of deflecting with sarcasm.


Well, it was both serious and not. The drowning ones did not hold onto their weapons!

And I'm allowed to respond however I want, I don't tell you to not respond when you don't know something you're talking about. I correct you and hope you take something away from it.


... seriously? Try and actually respond seriously to him instead of deflecting with sarcasm.


Well, it was both serious and not. The drowning ones did not hold onto their weapons!

And I'm allowed to respond however I want, I don't tell you to not respond when you don't know something you're talking about. I correct you and hope you take something away from it.


Can't you just concede a point that you lost? It's not like it destroys your entire argument, anyways. Instead of makin' a sarcastic remark.
10/10/2012 04:38 PMPosted by Ferenold
Sylvanas will not die simply because there is no Forsaken suitable to take her place. None have been fleshed out enough for the position.


This is implying blizzard cares about character development.


I know, but the Forsaken along with Gnomes don't seem to have characters that have gotten any development whatsoever. At least the other races have those.


Well, it was both serious and not. The drowning ones did not hold onto their weapons!

And I'm allowed to respond however I want, I don't tell you to not respond when you don't know something you're talking about. I correct you and hope you take something away from it.


Can't you just concede a point that you lost? It's not like it destroys your entire argument, anyways. Instead of makin' a sarcastic remark.


That's how I conceded a point, by making it into a joke.

Can't you see that I lost without thinking me being sarcastic is trying to salvage something?


This is implying blizzard cares about character development.


I know, but the Forsaken along with Gnomes don't seem to have characters that have gotten any development whatsoever. At least the other races have those.


I'm not disputin' that. But again, I don't really think blizzard cares all that much, therefore your reason isn't really legitimate. Are you trying to assert that blizzard legitimately cares about the development of forsaken characters? Clarifying here, so I can understand your argument.



Can't you just concede a point that you lost? It's not like it destroys your entire argument, anyways. Instead of makin' a sarcastic remark.


That's how I conceded a point, by making it into a joke.

Can't you see that I lost without thinking me being sarcastic is trying to salvage something?


Fair enough. I lost the humor at first, as I was too embroiled in the debate.

Fair enough. I lost the humor at first, as I was too embroiled in the debate.


Completely understandable.

But yes, the smiley was supposed to signify that I was not being serious and was trying to lose while saving a small amount of face.
Yep. It's like... if a bear kills your family, and there was a guy with a gun that could kill the bear -right there- but he did nothing? I'd blame the guy.

Remember, even during the Third War, the orcs were thought to be no better than simple beasts.


Except this wasn't and isn't the case. The Orcs were thought of as savages, not beasts, else they wouldn't have put them in internment camps.

10/10/2012 04:38 PMPosted by Maoseitun
Once again - you can get a position because of nepotism but that doesn't mean the person receiving the position cannot function within said position.


Except the CDevs said it wasn't really because of his skills. But because of his father. They specifically mentioned that.

Grand Marshal Garithos: "I received ill news from the front line. Is it true that you've consorted with the vile naga?"

Is Garithos now a seer? Is he a mind-reader, maybe?

The naga were known, at least in the lands of humanity, long enough for them to be seen as a distasteful race in the eyes of humanity.


You mean the bigot called another race vile? Color me surprised. Are you ignoring the fact that they helped win the battle in the favor of the Alliance?

10/10/2012 04:38 PMPosted by Maoseitun
Because an elf is willingly going to follow a guy who executes their last monarch.


So why execute him then and thus cripple your own army? The fact that he fulfilled his objective and he's outright ignoring an ally in the Naga makes him anything but pragmatic.

10/10/2012 04:38 PMPosted by Maoseitun
Left the frontlines to give orders to troops, returned to the front, heard about troops consorting with long-time enemies, leaves the front to reprimand troops, then returns to the front.


You don't know he did this. All we know is he was perfectly comfortable leaving the front line to issue petty orders.

10/10/2012 04:38 PMPosted by Maoseitun
It still centered around the requirement of two Dreadlords plotting to make sure the forces stalled before reaching the Plaguelands... this... I mean c'mon, even you have to admit a single human with an army requiring two Dreadlords to come together to plot warrants some note for the man.


Or his army. The fact that they TOOK HIS ARMY is what is telling. They only mind controled Garithos to gain access to his military force, not the man himself.

10/10/2012 04:38 PMPosted by Maoseitun
Blood Elves - severely weakened state, Kael has only the strongest ones with him and they're still a ragged force. He has manpower, he doesn't have extremely potent magical power: Blood Elves do - Blood Elves more useful for repairing magical structures than fighting at the current time.


Except at this time the Blood Elves were rebounding because they took up magic that the Blood Mages and Spellbreakers use. They weren't weak, they were still the best casters the Alliance had.

10/10/2012 04:38 PMPosted by Maoseitun
Wasn't their entire military. They could be considered traitors, however, and even if he only executed Kael it'd be asking for trouble later. Berated non-humans, generally liked the humans. Bullying the woman who came to him for help... yeah.


Actually, Kael I believe was using a vast majority of their military for this campaign. He was morally devastating, the dwarves were even getting fed up with his crap.

10/10/2012 04:38 PMPosted by Maoseitun
The man was only a bigot to elves and dwarves. He quite liked the pandaren. Also, the Dreadlord thing I'll answer below.


First, we are unable to say that quest was fully canon because they used Cenataur, which were NOT on the Eastern Kingdoms. And to say "He was only bigotted toward Dwarves and Elves", the two closest allies they had... yeah. I'm sure he was peaches and cream with everyone else. -eyeroll-

10/10/2012 04:38 PMPosted by Maoseitun
So it still took a Dreadlord to kill him! Also it's not really warning when he's making a speech and the warning is 'Kill him too.'


Yes, a Dreadlord killed him with absolutely no effort. If it was Kil'jaeden would you be saying "It took Kil'jaeden to kill him"? No, because that's absurd.

10/10/2012 04:38 PMPosted by Maoseitun
Because at that point it's a 'What the !@#$ just happened?' Now if he had someone tell him right before Balnazzar died 'The elf will betray you by making use of her pet demon.' that's a warning.


If he was such a great fighter, that would've been enough time for him to draw his sword and fight on par with Varimathras.

The man led a big army but was absolutely nothing special outside of being a bigot.
Nathanos Blightcaller would make a kickass leader. He would need a better model.
And a cool cape.

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