Ret PvP damage low

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^ nice wall of test, i read it and like your opinion.

TLDR: We are still support class but this time more better then cata rets.
Ok, so im far from being 90....takes too long as a working person ;)
But did i missed something?
I do pvp for leveling (quests too) and i dont see any issues with my pala at all. i even have no issue with lvl 88 enemys (some exceptions may apply like Warlock and SPriest....u god damn !@#... ;)!!!!!! )
But anyway i make enough dps and have got survival skills. so whats the big point when hitting 90 that a lot of 90 palas are so tearfull about their damage output?! is it just that cant play your class very well?? on some point it seems like, sry dont want to hurt some feelings.
but i guess some of you guys just play a class cause its so OP !? wtf, play a class cause you love it and try to get every challenge cleared, there is allways a way to get the enemy down ;)

So Stop being so ..... no words for that and bring more solutions to be a better Pala

Happy Thanksgiving
I messed around as ret pvp today for a few hours (so far im not feeling the 5mans, in so far as hours upon hours of gearing at least) and must say my dps did feel lowish.

But i am in 4 pvp pieces supported largely by quest greens and normal mode blues.

Once im in full pvp set ill get back on how our dps is. I'm just attributing it to poor gear right now.
They replaced the little dps we had with "utility".
get full pvp and our pvp power up there and you will destroy people, especially with wings, when i pop everything and wade intoa group of enemies i usually kill 1-2 healers before wings fades. Our damage is fine, even if it's cooldown based that is our mechanic, learn to work with it and you'll do just fine.
Our healing and mobility is huge comparatively, but our burst is the worst out of any melee spec.

Not what I rolled a ret for.
Burst is way too dependent on cooldowns. And anyone with half a brain will CC us with wings up. Its not exactly hard to get away from us, though that doesn't matter for warriors ince they can just mow us down in a flury of attacks.

Rogues however are exceptionally weak against us. Only ones that kill me are ones that just pop every possible cooldown and catch me in a cheap shot -> kidney shot combo. Even then we can kite their asses about.
Pally dps is comparatively lower in PVP. There is no question about that.
I tried my buddy's Paladin and instantly realized I made a mistake leveling my Warlock first for MoP.

Rets are insane, I was !@#$ing dominating so hard. Of course, not harder than a BM Hunter, Warrior, or Mage, but I was doing really well. I really love my Paladin right now.

Just read Vanguard's guide on the Forums, so delicious.

Find it hard to believe that you would dominate on ret more than a warlock. Warlock are ridiculously OP right now that it's not even worth mentioning.
I was an Arena Master back in WotLK, quit during cata, and just recently came back. I don't think I'm the best PvP'er in the world, but I do think I know what I'm doing, and I'll say this.

Ret really needs some serious love in PvP. In PvE, I feel quite capable, but in PvP I just feel so weak other than when I synchronize every single one of my cooldowns (wings + ES + guardian). Honestly, the amount of damage I output compared to my survivability only feels balanced when I've got wings up and ES ticking. This isn't hyperbole, I've got an almost full set of PvP gear and a 463 weapon, gemmed and enchanted, and my efficacy is completely in the pits compared to pretty much every other class right now. This isn't meant to be hyperbolic, it's just the reality of the situation.

Again, I do not think I'm the best PvP'er in the world, but as someone who was rank 11 in Vanilla, Justicar in TBC, and Arena Master in WotLK, I like to at least think I'm "above average", yet most of my encounters 1v1 or 2v2 I only win if the other person is noticeably terrible. Frost DK's chew me up and make me look like I'm playing with winter gloves on. Shadow priests melt me while I can't cleanse and even if I do hit them with some lolburst their heals are 100x more effective than mine. It's almost unsettling because I'm used to being a successful turbo-nerd that chews up normal-level-nerds, but now my output makes me feel like I'm playing with one hand.

Having gone straight from WotLK to MoP, it feels like everyone else got significant buffs, whereas we just got "streamlined" with no matching increase in efficacy in either damage or surivability and to make matters worse we have less utility (can't cleanse magic debuffs, can't BoF out of stuns, etc).

I've played this game since vanilla, and I've never been as bummed out with the state of ret in PvP as I am now. I hope you help it out, because I've always thought of my paladin as my "main", and the character I really enjoy playing, but currently the spec is thoroughly disappointing in PvP to the point that I don't even want to queue anymore.

Having played almost every class at some time or another, the best way I can put it for people who don't have a level 90 ret... Imagine playing a cat druid with no stealth, no bear form, and no bleeds. That's what ret is in PvP right now.

You and I are in the same boat.

I have played Ret since Vanilla and got rank 10 (Lt. Commander). I have been to 2300 on my other Retribution Paladin (Iziren on Shadowmoon) in 2s and 3s. When we compare Ret to Shadowpriests, Warlocks, Mages, and ranged classes in general, then I agree, the damage is seriously lacking. I also agree with another poster that it doesn't make sense for a Retribution Paladin to have to kite a Warrior. A Retribution Paladin should easily be able to stand toe to toe with a Warrior of any dps spec.
I feel like Ret is in a really great position as far as balance of damage, healing, and utility goes...I think Blizzard really hit the mark! I do feel like a few classes are well off the mark though...

Warrior do great damage, maybe slightly higher than Ret...but the real ace that they have its the rotation of stuns and silences they can use to nearly render a target helpless while they pour out that great damage...and if they do get in trouble, they have a strong passive heal and Defensive Stance to fall back on. Warriors have 3 strong points, that when combined, make them fairly OP. The control they have makes the 4%/sec heal and the damage output significantly better than it would otherwise be.

Shadow Priest are in a great spot too...but I think the off-healing ability needs a slight tuning downward...

Beast Mastery Hunters while lacking long-term survive ability (unless using a Spirit Beast) have entirely too much burst during their cooldown phase. Beastial Wrath/Dire Beast/Stampede all stacked together puts out nearly unhealable damage even if the intended victim uses defensive cooldowns and gets healed. The kicker is that they can reset these cooldowns for round #2...when the target has already burnt opposing cooldowns...checkmate! Secondly, during BW/Stampede the Spiritmend from a Spirit Beast is superior to even a healers ouput...acting as more or less an arena legal Lay on Hands!

Rogues could probably use a slight boost at this point...they still have good control, but the damage just isn't there from what I've encountered, and they are a lot easier to kill this season than last as well...seems warriors got blessed with the OP Recuperate rogues lost (lol Second Wind) even though warriors have control on par with a rogue now...

Healers are pretty strong overall...I would say they could use a slight nerf, except there are classes that can kill them even 1v1 (warrior and hunter come to mind)

I don't think Ret has a problem...I think there are a few classes that need to be knocked down a notch to fall more in line with where Ret currently is...expect to see changes in the 4 weeks into-season balance patch.

It is nice to have wishful thinking. Warlocks, Shadow Priests, Mages and other ranged will be left untouched (Hunters probably not)
I don't think that rets in the worst spot possible but I don't personally feel like I can be a truly competitive choice for rbgs or arenas when things get more settled. Having our survivability and key to our success be in constantly self healing our selves means were not putting out the damage we need. And if our opponents have all these silences and junk were one 15 sec cd of there's from getting globaled it doesn't pan out. Offense is the best defense. My experience is I kill you when wings are up or expect a long fight. Now I'm not saying every time I have wings ready I should get a free kill. If they cc me pop some cds and live through it cool good job that's pvp.

If I was to make a few changes to ret it would take inquisition off the global cd. I don't feel like I put out any pressure if this is ever not active and holy hell burst takes way too long to get rolling when you don't have wings. I know it should be up at all times but sometimes pvp is pvp and I'm trying to get in that tv right then you try to get it up but you need heals things happen its pvp. I think this would just help in so many ways and even make our class feel more fun.

The next thing I would do is either give a way to break out of a fear or reduce cd of rebuke. I swear I've almost been blown up by bot frost mage just spamming frost bolts in my face thinking wtf I need a 3rd interrupt for this... I'm in her face. To heal myself through it I, shouldn't have to heal myself through any crap a range throws at me when their in my territory! 15 seconds is just too long. How many of you has this happen too o look I'm fighting a lock lets rebuke the first fear OK using instant fear eat it into another trinket that you finally get on target its been like 8-12 seconds here comes another fear I can't stop it! Wrong completely wrong that's not how pvp should flow. To find yourself out of options even after making the right decisions. Fundamentals in to puzzling out how fights flow and seeing you have no options at x moments really gets me way more frustrated then any lack of damage.

Now you may be saying where was your stun at on a 1 minute cd cause I believe burden of guilt is a must for dealing with range and giving your self the option to kite another melee if the situation demands it. Even if I had stun up we get into theory crafting I'm just reciting a play by play that really bugged me. And honestly it feels stupid have to kite a warrior to beat him.
i may roll a mage so i can be op as others

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