Why hasn't the Alliance beaten the Forsaken?

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Fargo loves them. They can't lose onscreen. The end.
10/03/2012 10:09 AMPosted by Deathisfinal
This is true, but I believe if the Alliance focuses it's might on any of the Horde captials that capitial would fall, but as others have stated that case would leave other fronts wide open for defeats.


But that's what Garrosh is doing. He's trying to conquer all of Kalimdor. So with a man like Varian, who vowed to take back Lordaeron, why not commit to the same thing with EK?

If both sides refused to commit to total war out of that fear, that's fine. But when one side does it, shouldn't the other follow the same tatic?

Either way, it downplays the strength of both the Night Elves, and the Forsaken.
10/03/2012 10:05 AMPosted by Dryker
Because she's a paranoid corpse whose only goal at this point is avoiding the damnnation that awaits her?


Paranoia is an interesting and possible theory, but we have no evidence for it.
10/03/2012 01:10 PMPosted by Quard
Because she's a paranoid corpse whose only goal at this point is avoiding the damnnation that awaits her?


Paranoia is an interesting and possible theory, but we have no evidence for it.


It's funny because she's died, what? 3 times so far? I would think that she's at least annoyed. And people complain about Kael'thas.
Elenie, you said what I have been saying ever since we learned about phasing. I've been an advocate that progressions of the story should be reflected to a MUCH greater extent in the gaming world. This could be reflected in every starting area. A perfect solution for the age old problem of advancing the story while keeping the content for lower players. Everyone I talked to thought it was marvelously pulled off in the cata starting areas.

Now to the original question: It would be a massive effort on the part of the Alliance. They would lose everything they have in Kalimdor, and they would eradicate a formidable enemy but gain nothing in lands or resources. Most everything in forsaken hands is rotted and infected. And in the end, the loss of life would only fuel the Forsaken armies, and once they barricated themselves in the Undercity they could last for months, impervious to air strikes. The sewers are a liability but an excellent choke point and collapsable if worst came to worst, leaving no gate to assault for the Allies. The Blood Elves are the most powerful magic-wielders on Azeroth and would no doubt send help, with other Horde forces on the way.

In effect starting an enormous war in a ruined land with no clear guaruntee of victory. Lordaeron has been destroyed, reinhabited, healed, destroyed, and we still have something 'like an old god but not an old god' living there. Can't we leave the place alone for an expo or two?
Sylvanas gained control of Lordaeron by murdering an Alliance leader; why wouldn't she be paranoid about the Alliance?

I'm reminded of the Tragedy of Macbeth, to be honest, although maybe I'm giving Blizzard too much credit.
10/03/2012 01:23 PMPosted by Maihray
Most everything in forsaken hands is rotted and infected.


That's not a big issue. The Western Plaguelands were in far worse shape than Tirisfal or Silverpine are, but the Argent Crusade and the Cenarion Circle were able to fully restore them in a matter of months.
But that's what Garrosh is doing. He's trying to conquer all of Kalimdor. So with a man like Varian, who vowed to take back Lordaeron, why not commit to the same thing with EK?

If both sides refused to commit to total war out of that fear, that's fine. But when one side does it, shouldn't the other follow the same tatic?

Either way, it downplays the strength of both the Night Elves, and the Forsaken.


Because the Alliance is dumb.

Think about it. If Jaina hadn't status quo'd Kalimdor at the end of Tides of War, the Horde would have all of Kalimdor AND Lordaeron all because the Alliance didn't, nay, REFUSED to capitalize on the fact that the Horde was preoccupied in Kalimdor. The Alliance has a second strike capacity (which Varian demonstrated, albeit in the worst way possible via attacking Orgrimmar) but they completely screwed the pooch and didn't deploy it.

It's Cold War strategy 101. Always, ALWAYS make sure that you have a contingency plan in place if the opposing side makes their move. Varian should've had troops, ships, and gunships ready to scramble at a moment's notice as soon as he heard that the Horde was making ANY move, preferably stationed in Gilneas and Arathi, but nope. The Alliance right now is the perfect example of what you'd get if you had a war conducted entirely by hippies and cowards.


But that's what Garrosh is doing. He's trying to conquer all of Kalimdor. So with a man like Varian, who vowed to take back Lordaeron, why not commit to the same thing with EK?


Sounds like a good way to drive the alliances second most powerful nation into the arms of the horde.
10/03/2012 07:50 AMPosted by Dashiiva
Also the Forsaken are badass.
OHHHH YEAHHHHHHHHH
10/03/2012 03:49 PMPosted by Jacksprat
Sounds like a good way to drive the alliances second most powerful nation into the arms of the horde.


A) I doubt that the Night Elves would do anything aside from fight to the death against the Horde.

B) You're assuming that the Orcs would even be able to fully beat the Night Elves while maintaining the blockade.

C) The Alliance would subsequently gain all the resources of the Eastern Kingdoms, a fair trade in my opinion, if drenched in realpolitik.


A) I doubt that the Night Elves would do anything aside from fight to the death against the Horde.

B) You're assuming that the Orcs would even be able to fully beat the Night Elves while maintaining the blockade.

C) The Alliance would subsequently gain all the resources of the Eastern Kingdoms, a fair trade in my opinion, if drenched in realpolitik.


A) I think you underestimate the drive to survive.

B) i am assuming a combined horde against one nation.

C) Sounds like a good way to drive the alliances second most powerful nation into the arms of the horde.
A) I think you underestimate the drive to survive.

B) i am assuming a combined horde against one nation.

C) Sounds like a good way to drive the alliances second most powerful nation into the arms of the horde.


A) I think you underestimate how much the Night Elves don't like the Horde.

B) And you're also assuming that the Night Elves wouldn't get out. Garrosh outright said that he couldn't prevent the Elves from fleeing to the Eastern Kingdoms.

C) Except they'd also keep the Night Elves, although they wouldn't be as powerful.
A) I think you underestimate the drive to survive.

B) i am assuming a combined horde against one nation.

C) Sounds like a good way to drive the alliances second most powerful nation into the arms of the horde.


A. Considering what he wants to do to their homeland and the rest of other lands, fighting to the death is the best they could hope for. Slavery and being experimented on is about the worst. Either way the Night elves lose.

B. If the Alliance split and concentrated on the continents they were located on, the Night elves would probably lose (if the Cenarian Circle didn't get off it's butt and side with the Night elves.), the Night elves would lose. But they would inflict truly massive casualties on the Kalimdor Horde and their lands would be a burnt out ruin for awhile. It would put the World Tree and the Well of Eternity under Garrosh's 'loving' touch. That would be a terrible thing for the world. At least in the Night elves hands, you can guarantee that they wouldn't abuse it.

C. The Night elves would end up being third or fourth class citizens in their own land. Slaves.


A) I think you underestimate how much the Night Elves don't like the Horde.

B) And you're also assuming that the Night Elves wouldn't get out. Garrosh outright said that he couldn't prevent the Elves from fleeing to the Eastern Kingdoms.

C) Except they'd also keep the Night Elves, although they wouldn't be as powerful.


A) A good portion of them work with the horde. Cenarian Circle.

B) I'm not. I also include the possibility that the alliance sacrificing the nelves may very well alienate them from the alliance.

C) Maybe. Maybe not. That's up to the Nelves. A nation that is supposed to be an equal in an aliance with the other nations. Not some rabble that was ever intended to be up for sacrifice at the whim of a human king.
1) No, they work with the Cenarion Circle. They just rub elbows with Horde member-races.

2) Sounds logical to me.

3) Not catching the point.
B) I'm not. I also include the possibility that the alliance sacrificing the nelves may very well alienate them from the alliance.


I have to take issue on this on one point. Why would the Night elves join the faction and ally to the race that is literally, right now in game, engaged in a campaign of eradication and total conquest of their lands? Why would anyone ally to that?


A. Considering what he wants to do to their homeland and the rest of other lands, fighting to the death is the best they could hope for. Slavery and being experimented on is about the worst. Either way the Night elves lose.

B. If the Alliance split and concentrated on the continents they were located on, the Night elves would probably lose (if the Cenarian Circle didn't get off it's butt and side with the Night elves.), the Night elves would lose. But they would inflict truly massive casualties on the Kalimdor Horde and their lands would be a burnt out ruin for awhile. It would put the World Tree and the Well of Eternity under Garrosh's 'loving' touch. That would be a terrible thing for the world. At least in the Night elves hands, you can guarantee that they wouldn't abuse it.

C. The Night elves would end up being third or fourth class citizens in their own land. Slaves.


A) yep, sacrificed for death by their allies or spared a certain fate by their enemies.

B) I guarentee nothing. Only that the nelves would lose against the combined might of the horde. The same casualties would happen to the alliance against the forsaken and the belves.

C) Third and fourth class citizens. Agreed. Slaves? i doubt it. The other option is fighting for the people that were supposed to be your allies and served you up to be third and fourth class citizens all to regain the lost lands of a dead human kingdom. So, I think the nelves would choose to keep their own lands rather than go to the EK and fight for Lordaeron.
10/03/2012 03:58 PMPosted by Vyrin
C) The Alliance would subsequently gain all the resources of the Eastern Kingdoms, a fair trade in my opinion, if drenched in realpolitik.


That wouldn't win any converts with the remaining Night elves, Draenei or worgen. It would hurt the Alliance a lot. Possible fatally.
1) No, they work with the Cenarion Circle. They just rub elbows with Horde member-races.

2) Sounds logical to me.

3) Not catching the point.


1) a good portion of the CC are Nelves who work with the horde. So, I doubt they hate the horde enough to decimate their own nation.

3) Point being related to point B. Since vyrins point C was dependant on his point B.

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