Protection Pallies - Is this right?

Paladin
so From what i understand and have read on the forums recently in regards to stat priority is that we need to stack exp to 15% to never EVER miss, get parried or dodged. Personally i find this a bit excessive and think i will cap my exp at 10%. What i was asking was how is everyone else reforging, chanting or gemming? Am I on the right track (see profile)? is there something i am not doing? any advice as i head into raiding as of tomorrow.
I'm personally doing: Stamina until comfortable > 7.5% hit > 15% exp > mastery = haste > parry = dodge

Edit: Nice shield mog.
I just dont see the ultimate importance of getting exp to 15% i would rather have some mastery, dodge or parry to mitigate damage, i have no problem accumulating HoPo. I'd rather have defensively a better block chance or general avoidance (dodge/parry) than worrying about whether or not im going to miss that 5% of the time and miss out on HoPo. I can only miss on a CS or HotR anyway, judgement will always hit as long as my hit chance stays over 7.5%. i still think mastery is ahead of parry and dodge, i found once you get parry to 15% there are rather large diminishing returns when reforging as well. mastery still seem to give me very decent amount and barely diminishes at all. Im guessing dodge will work the same way as parry when it come to diminishing returns.

edit: yeah the shield is dope.
Capping hit and exp are proven to be well ahead of any other model to reduce the chance of spike damage (this is what really kills tanks)
By all means don't just take our word for it, but I will toss out a few points. Theck has been doing a lot of analysis of the impacts of our stats, and everything is still pointing towards hard capping hit and and expertise and then after that haste and mastery are both valuable.

The reason for this is actually similar in a sense to why we CTC capped in cata...to smooth out damage spikes. CTC capping usually resulted in less TDR (total damage reduction) compared to a more balanced or avoidance build. There was a big trade-off though. While lots of avoidance reduced your total damage taken, it resulted in more unpredictable damage spikes. That's why full combat table coverage was preferred by so many. It smoothed out the damage taken (it was actually likely too strong really at doing this).

This is why hit and expertise hard-capping are looking so good from that perspective. All the data is suggesting that it greatly reduces the occurrence of damage spikes and smooths out the damage taken, with the trade-off of slightly increasing total damage taken.

To be honest, for most people in most situations, gearing either way isn't likely going to be the factor that determines if the boss falls over or not. For people on the bleeding-edge, however, it could make a significant difference.
I just hit 90 the other day and have been pouring over alot of posts and guides as soon as i decided to make my pally my main this xpack. I have seen your posts around Bravehearth and I agree. But what bugs me is all the while I was leveling the higher gear lvl items all had more armor/str/stam but it always seems to be they come with dodge/parry and loose hit/exp or mastery..its verry frustrating..lol.
Don't overlook the traditionally "dps" pieces. Once you start getting gear from heroics, it actually becomes pretty easy to hard cap them both. Eventually you'll get to the point where you'll just be figuring out how to shuffle stats around to be as close to the caps without going way over.

There's not a ton of leftover stats to play with in just heroic gear, but there's some. I'm currently sticking with the engineering trinket for now just because of all the static stats it has to play around with, but even without it I can change some gemming (like those JC-only stam gems I'm using just because I can...not doing any raiding so really not sure what health I'll feel comfortable at).
I have also read Thecks post and what his is saying makes total sense, but would really really like some feedback from blues/devs on this, because while we have moved to active mitigation I doubt that Blizz intended on Plate tanks rolling on DPS gear.

And while it may only be for "bleeding edge" progression, A LOT of people look at these leading guilds and model after them right, wrong, or indifferent and what once was fringe now becomes "widespread knowledge" very quickly.

It would also really stink to have people gear up following this model to have blizz come in and "adjust" to make avoidance stats more desirable to tanks, which in all honesty should be the case to begin with.

Good tanks will have multiple sets of gear anyway, Avoidance set, threat/dps set, and now a mitigation set ( which really is taking the place of the threat/dps set now) to be ready for anything but it doesn't make sense for the best model to be not using the tanking gear that was designed in game for tanks.
Thanks for the response guys. I suppose it will just take a bit of adjusting from cata. where mastery was king and it was all about the block rate because of the divine shield and other things. I'll play around with it no doubt and see where I land.

Also this is off topic but, braveherath do you think it would be worth me scrapping my blue trinket and investing in a dragonling? that looks like it could be incredibly useful. 600 hit, mastery and exp. yes please. I'm guessing its only for engineers though.
I'm old-schooling it with dodge and parry, tanking with insight, and lol'ing at everything. Got moved into mt spot over a dk with better gear and experience for Stone Guardians because I was so easy to heal.

Active mitigation might make spreadsheets happy, but I don't think the average tank is going to be able to get out of it what the math suggests.
10/10/2012 01:33 PMPosted by Gaslampkilla
Also this is off topic but, braveherath do you think it would be worth me scrapping my blue trinket and investing in a dragonling? that looks like it could be incredibly useful. 600 hit, mastery and exp. yes please. I'm guessing its only for engineers though.


Obviously not Bravehearth here, but yes, it would be very much worth it. Reforged, your trinket only gives 338 expertise and 509 mastery, along with a rather weak on-use dodge bonus. You can stick 3 tinker's gears in the dragonling (see mine, for instance) which will give you +600 each of a secondary stat. I'll leave you to do the math and see which one is better :)

Edit: To clarify, I use the same Dragonling for both my Prot MS set and Ret OS set.
I'm old-schooling it with dodge and parry, tanking with insight, and lol'ing at everything. Got moved into mt spot over a dk with better gear and experience for Stone Guardians because I was so easy to heal.

Active mitigation might make spreadsheets happy, but I don't think the average tank is going to be able to get out of it what the math suggests.


I've been doing the same thing, haven't tried raiding yet but in any heroic I can just pull full rooms of enemies and easily survive, my mate who heals me ends up doing dps for half the fight since I don't seem to take much dmg.

Only place I have had to be healed properly was in scarlet halls when I pulled a huge group which included the mobs which give the debuff that stacks to 100% extra dmg.
10/10/2012 02:29 PMPosted by Slalin
Active mitigation might make spreadsheets happy, but I don't think the average tank is going to be able to get out of it what the math suggests.


Obviously. But we do get one thing out of it the spreadsheet can't determine either. TIMED mitigation. Hold on to a SotR for a Impale from DW for example.

While we can never do as well as a machine it does give us an estimate.

Avoidance will be especially powerful this tier with healers having minimal regen, but after a while avoidance will take the nose dive it always does.

For this tier i doubt either method is "bad." But i expect that as more and more gear comes out with each patch, avoidance will fall more and more out of favor and stamina/haste/mastery will outpace it more and more.
10/10/2012 09:19 PMPosted by Celyndrashad
Active mitigation might make spreadsheets happy, but I don't think the average tank is going to be able to get out of it what the math suggests.


Obviously. But we do get one thing out of it the spreadsheet can't determine either. TIMED mitigation. Hold on to a SotR for a Impale from DW for example.

While we can never do as well as a machine it does give us an estimate.

Avoidance will be especially powerful this tier with healers having minimal regen, but after a while avoidance will take the nose dive it always does.

For this tier i doubt either method is "bad." But i expect that as more and more gear comes out with each patch, avoidance will fall more and more out of favor and stamina/haste/mastery will outpace it more and more.


No idea why but this is really annoying me but have you actually tanked as a paladin at 90, or are you just sprouting info you read from some theorycrafter somewhere, avoidance is incredible for tanking, and we have enough cds to absorb big hits without having to sacrifice avoidance for it.

You are saying to time sotr for bigger hits but you are losing out on so much mitigation while its waiting to be cast, seriously with out a focus on avoidance you are so vulnerable when sotr buff is not up.
For this tier i doubt either method is "bad." But i expect that as more and more gear comes out with each patch, avoidance will fall more and more out of favor and stamina/haste/mastery will outpace it more and more.


I personally hope it goes the other way, it was said in another thread somewhere recently "it makes more sense for tanks to be dodging, blocking, parrying and soaking up damage rather than relying on having to hit something to gain the power to defend yourself'. I hope hard capping exp 15% because a spreadsheet says it the best way to min/max doesn't turn us into exactly that. Solely relying on our offence to be able to have defence. I liked the way it worked in cata to an extent. I think a good balance is they key to good tanking.
My problem with the devs is that dodge and parry are so devalued that we pretty much value dps gear more than tank gear (haste, mastery sha boots anyone?)

This is pretty much the first time i've seen avoidance so badly under the curve :(
10/10/2012 11:02 PMPosted by Hyperîon
No idea why but this is really annoying me but have you actually tanked as a paladin at 90, or are you just sprouting info you read from some theorycrafter somewhere, avoidance is incredible for tanking, and we have enough cds to absorb big hits without having to sacrifice avoidance for it.


Im saying it from experience from every expansion that wow has ever had and theorycrafting.

Avoidance is ALWAYS good at the start of the expansion and weak at the end. Every single time.
That said:

1. I did not call avoidance bad.

2. You cant sacrifice avoidance for cds. Avoidance is passive.

3. I have tanked before MoP was released under these SAME EXACT MECHANICS WE HAVE NOW.

10/10/2012 11:02 PMPosted by Hyperîon
You are saying to time sotr for bigger hits but you are losing out on so much mitigation


4. Thanks to boundless conviction this is a wait of a GCD or 2 at the most. Not a huge wait.

5. Unless your healer just level capped in crap gear, overall mitigation means crap. Mitigation when its needed is what is important. Why should i care about taking more damage that is less than a healers normal overhealing or when the healer is regenning more mana than they are spending.

10/10/2012 11:02 PMPosted by Hyperîon
seriously with out a focus on avoidance you are so vulnerable when sotr buff is not up.


6. You are in the same situation (if not worse situation) if you sacrifice SotR mitigation for avoidance and dont avoid the attack anyways. One is guaranteed and the other is Random.

7. Most normal attacks are not dangerous.

8. If you have a problem with what im saying please use facts/logic/figures/logs/whatever to disprove what i say. If your experiences at level 90 are so valuable then you should be able to disprove what im saying with proof that anyone can validate.

10/10/2012 11:08 PMPosted by Gaslampkilla
I personally hope it goes the other way, it was said in another thread somewhere recently "it makes more sense for tanks to be dodging, blocking, parrying and soaking up damage rather than relying on having to hit something to gain the power to defend yourself'. I hope hard capping exp 15% because a spreadsheet says it the best way to min/max doesn't turn us into exactly that. Solely relying on our offence to be able to have defence. I liked the way it worked in cata to an extent. I think a good balance is they key to good tanking.


However, thats exactly how cata went. Damage reduction was at a premium at the start of the expansion and then went to crap around FLs. It became less and less about parry/dodge and more and more about stamina/block capping which let you soak damage and was reliable.

Why? Bosses hit harder and mana regen got better. Saving healers mana became less important and having something you could RELY on (block capping and EH) became king. When taking a big hit you want something you can RELY on. Effective health/stamina is always there. Block capping increased your EH 43%.

Here we have a similar situation in that Active mitigation is more reliable than avoidance and thus will only become more and more important unless they find a way to make mana an issue for the entire expansion. Our experience in DS at the end of Cata kinda hints that wont be the case.

Also this system is more involved. Avoidance/MoP block are random and passive. You have no control over if you avoid an attack or not. This system lets you control your mitigation and own survival far more and is more active (ie active mitigation).

My problem with the devs is that dodge and parry are so devalued that we pretty much value dps gear more than tank gear (haste, mastery sha boots anyone?)

This is pretty much the first time i've seen avoidance so badly under the curve :(


I agree its bad that we value haste over mastery. We need a haste nerf so that we dont value dps gear over tanking gear.

BUT for full disclosure i consider the following

Tank gear: Has parry/dodge on it
DPS gear: has haste/crit on it
Both tank and dps gear: mastery/hit/exp

Remember the blues have some goals for tanking this expansion. To make hit/exp important tanking stats. Check. To put a focus on active mitigation over passive mitigation. Check

Also avoidance was UTTER crap from the end of Naxx onward in Wrath. I mean UTTER crap. It has way more value now than it ever did back then.
Avoidance only loses benefits at the end of an expansion due to tanks getting full ctc, this can't happen in mop, well unless we can reach 100% block.

1 ) I didn't say you did

2) by using more haste rather than avoidance stats you are giving yourself more access to the sotr buff by sacrificing passive avoidance.

3)So you have tanked where they split parry/dodge and block into two separate rolls?

4)that was more targeted at when you said you can time sotr for when you know a big hit is coming in.

5) because tanking less damage is always good as a tank, we have plenty of active cds we can use when need be.

6) dont understand what you are trying to say here, seems to be supporting passive mitigation since if you had the chance to avoid the hit rather than take it wouldn't you want that?

7) this is true, but still not getting hit is better than getting hit.

8) all I can tell you about is my experience and that is by focusing on mitigation I barely take any damage.

mm have there been any comparisons done as to how much you can keep sotr up with a build using haste/hit/exp rather than an avoidance build.
While it's true that not getting hit is better than getting hit, the fact is that avoidance is a random occurrence that's uncontrollable and unreliable given the low chance for it to happen. Even though you've reforged quite a bit to parry, you still only have 24.6% total avoidance. That's a pretty small chance to avoid an attack.

The big thing is reliability. Having a 50%+ damage reduction buff up 60-80% of the time guaranteed is better than relying on a 20-30% chance at 100% damage reduction.

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