Approaching the complaints with tact.

So the majority of the rogue community is up in arms about any number of things right now; low damage, a lack of cc, less survivability... The list is endless over what players are angry about. I find this mostly on the blizzard forums for the most part, where as on other high level forums the general approach to the nerf's have been "alright, we are not what we used to be, how to we overcome this?"

For the most part, I'll stick to referencing pvp, as I have seen some competitive parses from rogues in raids so far. Here are some things that do stick out from playing at 90 so far:

1) I feel energy starved...
...And so do many other rogues judging from what I've been reading. Energy regeneration is at it's same pace, however, I believe this comes from lower damage. Things aren't dying as fast, so more time in a fight feels awkward for us. While I'm not a huge advocate of asking for damage buffs, I will say that playing a rogue now feels slower, and in turn not as enjoyable.

2) My cool downs make me feel guilty when I use them...
...What I'm getting at here is that every rogue cool down for survivability or burst feels like I will only get it once in an arena. This may be the design that blizzard was aiming for, so that players use their cool downs as resources (see: dispel) but I feel like 3 minutes for every cool down on the rogue is high.

3) Combat and Assassination feel way too clunky...
...This ties into being mana starved. With Sub, I feel that hemo is readily available to me to begin building combo points. With the other two, I feel awkward. It's hard to explain, but I'm sure people understand what I'm talking about when I say these two specs feel incredibly awkward (please don't confuse me using awkward as underpowered, too).

As far as pvp goes, it's a very exciting time for rogues. We are to reconfigure ourselves and find our roles again, much like in wotlk.

S11 we were given the gift of legendaries and incredible damage and survivability. We never asked to be a one man army, but we ran with it. As of now, we have to work with what we are given to survive. Hopefully these are things other rogues see, and instead of ranting on the forums, we can begin to concentrate the effort to truly find what the underlying issue is. I think this will prove more effective than simply saying "OMG BUFF ME."

Love you a whole bunch and junk,
you must be on crack thinking pvp is exciting for rogues in the current state.
Controlling a match is more exciting than seeing big numbers for me. Sorry if that is offensive.
10/05/2012 06:39 PMPosted by Norren
you must be on crack thinking pvp is exciting for rogues in the current state.
It was exciting for me to think that as Sin, I would have mobility again but here I am sitting with Prep because the cooldowns are too long, Step is meh and BoS is too expensive (opinions).

I started leveling my DK and didn't stop until I was 87. Took like a day. It was fun. :P

10/05/2012 07:16 PMPosted by Tsillah
Bricke, you are my hero, I think I'll quickly summarize for anyone too lazy to read your post, which hopefully they do.
Don't forget about kudos to OP for being optimistic :D

People are already too far on the other spectrum of realism: hyperbolically pessimistic.

[edit]: Keep hitting Quote instead of Edit >_< fffuuu!
AJ forums have been lacking in theory lacking for quite some time, check skill capped (just one for example) for constructive posts.

You mention that sap/blind/gouge all come at a premium, but you fail to mention CS/KS and garrote. Classes are being given what we have had for years.

If you want to say that I'm wrong for Control>Big numbers... I don't know how to respond to that. I would take skill>face rolling more often than not.

For sub feeling clunky, please refer to why I said the other specs feel clunky: high energy costs, high down time and even bigger issues with being energy starved. True, sub has higher ramp up time, but I feel the flexibility in having your resource readily available negates the issue of dot maintanence.

Again, my hopes are to concentrate the issues of why we feel lacking and underpowered, not just "you're wrong wrong wrong."

If you feel I'm incorrect in how I'm experiencing the game, post yours and hopefully we can get some constructive criticism going.

Miss you already and junk,
high level forums the general approach to the nerf's have been "alright, we are not what we used to be, how to we overcome this?"

Like what? AJ's Rogues pretty much all jumped ship. You've got three Rank-1 Rogues that jumped ship (Reckful, Neilyo and Khuna[EU])...

Most of the 2200+ posters around here, as you'll notice, are still level 85. Not sure by what you're referring to when you say "high-level". Most everyone that's considered to be "high-level" is now a Warrior. They've got infinitely more mobility, control and utility than us at the moment.

Combat and Assassination feel way too clunky...

Subtlety feels just as - if not more - clunky than Combat. Combat's relatively simple. With Sub, you've got to juggle SnD, Recup, Rupture for SV on top of your finishers. One step outside melee range and you're kited indefinitely. And then it all starts from ground 0.

As far as pvp goes, it's a very exciting time for rogues. We are to reconfigure ourselves and find our roles again, much like in wotlk.

Interesting? Yes. Exciting? Not really. I've never had less fun play Rogue - or this game - than right now.

It's good to be optimistic, but it's better to be realistic. You say that you'd rather control a fight than see big numbers. But that in and of itself is wrong.

Most classes were tossed free, instant CC like it was candy. Instant CC, I'll remind you, was once a Rogue niche. On top of that, they can do damage; we cannot. As you said yourself, it's one or the other with Rogues:
-Blind someone and you shouldn't do any damage to them
-Gouge someone and you shouldn't do any damage to them
-Sap someone and you should do any damage to them
-Stun someone and you're putting our only safe CC on DR with KS or Cheap

As you can see our control comes at a premium; a concept that just does not exist for other classes. In fact, most classes are rewarded for maintaining a constant CC chain. See: Mage Shatters.

Again, it's good to be optimistic and I applaud you for it. But if Rogues are going to see the changes that need to happen, you need to be honest with yourself; we can't compete in the current game.

I'm glad somebody is talking about this. Even if our CD's were what they used to be, our control is no better than a number of other class specializations, but they're doing a !@#$ load more damage.

A lot of Rogues are under the impression that our problems right now are as simple as "control." This isn't true. While our control is currently weaker than the same set of classes I mentioned before, it's our damage and survivability. Our damage goes without saying. We're clearly the lowest of the low right now. Our survivability is trash too though. I can sacrifice my non-lethal poison for a health-generating effect that is only good for shiv spams (on a CD). That is, until I am given a waste-of-set-bonus that gives all my non-lethal poisons a slowing effect. And even then, what about mind-numbing poison? That's off the table with the current system. I have to give it up for a 5% heal every large interval of seconds. Then there's recuperate which heals for much less than other classes are getting. I mean, Frost Mages, a class that I would place squarely in the set of classes with as much or more control than rogues, have massive self-healing that they do not sacrifice anything for, coupled with a possible shield that absorbs large amounts of damage.

Rogues have issues across the board. It's not only control, and hoping that lowering our CD's will fix the fundamental flaws with the class is merely a cute, optimistic naivety.

Again, my hopes are to concentrate the issues of why we feel lacking and underpowered...

10/05/2012 07:38 PMPosted by Bricke
coming to the Rogue forums effectively saying that, "everyone who isn't enjoying it is a Negative Nancy and I'm optimistic and I eat rainbows and poop butterflies and everyone has to adapt" isn't something that a majority of Rogues want to hear.

Glad we're off to a good start.

Rainbows and butterfly bowl movements,
I'd have to agree with Bricke. Subt is far more clunky than Sin or Combat.

You're correct in that Sin and Combat have to spend more energy to generate CPs but Sin and Combat have less Finishers to juggle, making them much more simple.

To compare (core rotation abilities while in combat):
CP Generators
  • Mutilate
  • Dispatch (Blindside/health<35%)
  • Finishers
  • Rupture (lasts longer now, less management)
  • Slice and Dice (replaced by Envenom while active)
  • Envenom (as often as possible while the other 2 are active)
  • Combat
    CP Generators
  • Revealing Strike (replaced by Sinister Strike while active)
  • Sinister Strike
  • Finishers
  • Slice and Dice (lasts much longer now, less management)
  • Eviscerate
  • Subtlety
    CP Generators [nostance]
  • Backstab (when positioning/latency allow)
  • Hemorrhage
  • CP Generators [Shadow Dance]
  • Ambush
  • Garrote
  • Finishers
  • Slice and Dice (vital for Energetic Recovery)
  • Rupture (vital for Sanguinary Veins)
  • Eviscerate (as often as possible while the other 2 are active)

  • So what we see here is that Mutilate and Sinister Strike, while more expensive than Backstab, are much easier to use. Hemo is in there to throw a bone to Subt when positioning or latency is an issue but doesn't provide as much damage as Backstab should. When Shadow Dance is up, Subt grows a bit in complexity, adding more CP generators to the mix.

    As far as Finishers, Sin and Combat have 1 finisher to maintain (Sin: Rupture, Combat: SnD) and weaving Enven/Evis when they can (I read that Rupture for Combat can be a DPS loss, correct me if I'm wrong) while Subt have 2 finishers to maintain (SnD/Rupt) while trying to weave an Evis when both of those are up.
    All us rogues are mindless idiots who don't know our class, and you're the only one who does, come to carry us all! Oh heavens, please do save me from this turrible confusin' mess!

    About the purpose of this thread... The detail in which other rogues (some are by far, incredibly better than I am) have laid out the issues plaguing us (particularly in PvP) is borderline Biblical in proportion. It's not as if it's a question that we all need to be philosophical about. Backstab feels like getting hit with a pillow. As Bricke pointed out, other classes were showered with incredibly powerful CCs, self healing, and we simply didn't gain utilities to compete. The talent tree is mostly old moves repackaged. As a result, R1 rogues as well as others in general have been bailing.

    Sure, some comments have been less than tactful, but that's really not a reason to suggest that the massive amount of complaints in the forum right now are not valid and don't reflect obvious truth. We're simply never going to be excited and gleeful about a nerf. I realize that some amount of complaining (like whining about Pandaren becoming a race, etc) is futile, but some complaints are legitimate and calling people out for complaining doesn't always make one appear to be particularly seasoned.

    Not all complaints are inherently negative, in fact, I believe that the reason rogues are currently so outspoken is that they're excited about this expansion and want to feel like they truly have a place in it.
    The problem we face doesn't have to do with lack of theory crafting and adapting. The problem lies with our class lacking on what other classes have.
    The fact of the matter is, other classes got better CCs, mobility and survivability this expansion whereas we got nerfed in all the areas. Doesn't matter how hard we try, we're going to get outshined.
    You quoted my original post where I said "hopefully we can concentrate the effort to find what the true underlying issue is..."

    And yes, I still stand by the school of thought that constructive conversation is better than crying.

    Maybe I write to much and just should've said "this was my experience playing, what was yours... Please use your grown up voices." but I don't think the point would've gotten across much better. The idea that in other forums, there is deeper theory than "we are broken, I'm re-rolling" I know is shocking, but I wanted I use it to exemplify the fact that despite the common belief that the class is doomed, people are trying to figure it out still.

    I never said everyone must adapt... My original post boiled down to "let's get constructive criticism going instead of gutteral noises."

    I can tell from how you're responding to the thread you are upset. I really hope you adapt to copping with those emotions...

    Always adapting,
    10/05/2012 08:15 PMPosted by Eiago
    I can tell from how you're responding to the thread you are upset. I really hope you adapt to copping with those emotions...

    Oh good, I was hoping someone who doesn't know us might decide for us what we're feeling. I'm in a great mood. I have Oreos.

    Yeah, I guess Rank 1 rogues like Neilyo and Ayume just don't know their class. /sarcasm
    10/05/2012 08:20 PMPosted by Bricke
    I can tell from how you're responding to the thread you are upset. I really hope you adapt to copping with those emotions...

    Well I'm done here. This isn't worth responding to any more.

    Good day.

    Sorry if you're offended, but I don't like words being put in my mouth.

    If all you took from my post was some tongue in cheek... Instead of attempting to steer the conversation back on track or defend myself, then I don't know what to tell you.

    There are blue posts stating that blizzard is a huge advocate of the community forums as a medium to their player base. Coming together as community and healthy discussion was the core of this... Instead of waiting for patch notes or long drawn out rants.

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