The Internment Camps

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If your choices of dishes to bring to a potluck are "chocolate chip muffins" or "!@#$ casserole" (and you ignore the "other dishes welcome"), no one's going to criticize you for choosing not to make %^-* casserole.

But if instead of using flour and chocolate chips, you buy bleach and arsenic, you don't call those muffins, you call it rat poison. Turning around saying "It's the thought that counts!" when people complain about your cooking is pretty stupid.

Yeah, you could've made !@#$ casserole instead, big whoop. I can't imagine the other people at the potluck should be thrilled you fed them rat poison and called it chocolate chip muffins.


You forgot to add that the ingredients in every other possible dish for the potluck, aside from those muffins and casserole, will cause those attending to have extremely terrible allergic reactions.
If the orcs and humans were anything like humans in our world, of course the Azerothians had other options. It's not like every war ever won on Earth resulted in either 1) complete genocide of a people or 2) enslavement in internment camps. What usually happens is the victors establish military control over the conquered region/peoples and set up a new government, either comprised of their own people or natives willing to serve under the victor. The losers, while unhappy, terrified, demoralized, etc. continue to attempt to progress in the new culture and rule forced upon them.

So the Azerothians could, in theory, have just stopped the orcs from having any rulers opposed to the Azerothians, and kept a close military control over them, basically living side by side, and eventually assimilating the orcs into their cultures.

However, this is the fantasy genre. As others have said, the orcs, as a people, might not have been able to function like we do on Earth. The demonic taint might have led them to being uncontrollable and unwilling to create settlements and societies not hellbent on war. And after the taint, they might have been too lethargic to even create settlements and feed themselves. Dying as a people unwilling to progress and survive due to their withdrawal.

So the Azerothians could, in theory, have just stopped the orcs from having any rulers opposed to the Azerothians, and kept a close military control over them, basically living side by side, and eventually assimilating the orcs into their cultures.


That was kind of the goal of the Internment camps, long term anyway. Probably more as a sub-human underclass and not equals, but it was still the idea.

The major problem with comparing real world conflicts with the Orc invasion is... well... we have never been invaded from another world. There were no home territories to send the orcs back to, no free territories to hand over to them, and nothing that could really be done with them, asside from putting them under lock and key and hoping they would be useful at some point, or killing them all.
If the orcs and humans were anything like humans in our world, of course the Azerothians had other options. It's not like every war ever won on Earth resulted in either 1) complete genocide of a people or 2) enslavement in internment camps. What usually happens is the victors establish military control over the conquered region/peoples and set up a new government, either comprised of their own people or natives willing to serve under the victor. The losers, while unhappy, terrified, demoralized, etc. continue to attempt to progress in the new culture and rule forced upon them.

So the Azerothians could, in theory, have just stopped the orcs from having any rulers opposed to the Azerothians, and kept a close military control over them, basically living side by side, and eventually assimilating the orcs into their cultures.

However, this is the fantasy genre. As others have said, the orcs, as a people, might not have been able to function like we do on Earth. The demonic taint might have led them to being uncontrollable and unwilling to create settlements and societies not hellbent on war. And after the taint, they might have been too lethargic to even create settlements and feed themselves. Dying as a people unwilling to progress and survive due to their withdrawal.


You're forgetting the important detail that in the real world, people don't conquer invaders who come from another world entirely. The Alliance can't send the Orcs back home, they HAVE to keep them in their own territories. They can't give them territories, because that would pretty much be victory for the orcs. From the moment Draenor is (at the time believed to be) destroyed, the orcs are now refugees on Human lands. There's nowhere for them to go, so they have to be kept in camps and taken care of.

Edit: And looks like I was beaten to it. XD
What I am saying, is that option "3," if we can call it that, would be to try and in some form, assimilate orcs into Azerothian culture. Of course it'd only be smart to be cautious, via establishing military control. But I would not call internment camps assimilation. They are imprisonment. Assimilation would be giving orcs a chance to try and create their own societies or mix with existing ones, as long as they follow Azerothian rules and government. I'm certain some territory could be given to orcs with Azerothian leadership, not every bit of land was inhabited or in use.
And like I said before, its Fantasy, we don't know if demon-tainted orcs were capable of coexisting in Azeroth and assimilating with the natives to form non-war oriented societies, or at least pro-Alliance war oriented societies.
10/07/2012 06:27 PMPosted by Silvurn
What I am saying, is that option "3," if we can call it that, would be to try and in some form, assimilate orcs into Azerothian culture.


I think people like you fail to understand the depth of the problem.

A demonic army from another world came down out of the blue killing, pillaging, burning, *@**%#*@*@ and ravaging the southern half of the known world. It's leaders clearly dabbled in demonic magic. Some of those who warred against them were defiled and risen as twisted mockeries of their former selves to kill those they once protected.

What you're saying is that the entirety of the humans in Azeroth had to act as pure saints, devoid of any passion or pride, to just accept and forgive the demonic alien race that destroyed half of their known world. You are saying that the Lordaeronians had to accept to walk side by side with those who had pillaged Stormwind and be thankful for that.

Terenas Menethil burdened his own people with the costs to rehabilitate the army who had destroyed their loved ones. And people say it was too little.

10/07/2012 06:27 PMPosted by Silvurn
Assimilation would be giving orcs a chance to try and create their own societies or mix with existing ones, as long as they follow Azerothian rules and government.


Breaking news - Orcs went from raving bloodlusting lunatics - And thus unfit to create their own societies - to pathetic empty husks - and thus unfit to create their own societies, in the space between the two wars. There was no choice but the internment camps.

10/07/2012 06:27 PMPosted by Silvurn
I'm certain some territory could be given to orcs with Azerothian leadership, not every bit of land was inhabited or in use.


Yeah. Give the conquering army land and hope it appeases them enough for them to stop attacking.

Look how well that went for Chamberlain.
10/07/2012 06:58 PMPosted by Heon
What you're saying is that the entirety of the humans in Azeroth had to act as pure saints, devoid of any passion or pride, to just accept and forgive the demonic alien race that destroyed half of their known world. You are saying that the Lordaeronians had to accept to walk side by side with those who had pillaged Stormwind and be thankful for that.


This is the cornerstone of the Horde paradigm.
We can't judge the humans based on what WE know we have to jusdge them based on what THEY knew. They had no idea what an orc's natural state was like what their hobbies were it wasn't even until Tirion met an orc that the idea of a orc who didn't want to kill humanity sooner or later was known. These were an alien force on this world. there is no "releasing them into the wild" it was Either

A. kill them

B.Spare them

they chose B and from there it was

1. let them go free

2. lock them up

they chose 2 because this was an OTHERWORLDLY force that literally showed up and took over half the known world in a very short time.

now also mind you these orcs are now being guarded by the very same humans who saw their families, friends, and comrades die during a DEFENSIVE campaign. Yes they are gonna hate these creatures. they attacked unprovoked as far as the humans could see.

Think about it humans, dwarves, and high elves had a decent relationship. They traded fighting was very rare. now suddenly in the middle of a swamp a portal opens and around 80% of this species called "orcs" just starts charging through attacking EVERYBODY.

If orcs are forgiven due to demonic corruption then humanity deserves to be forgiven for being pushed into this position after rightfully defending against a genocide.
10/07/2012 07:50 PMPosted by Fenror
. These were an alien force on this world. there is no "releasing them into the wild"


In this vein, we know that, while the Internment camps were up, 4 clans were still at large in Azeroth. We also know that there was a third pocket war with the Dark Portal.

But let's just deal with the 4 'free' clans, since the Dark Portal incedent just strengthens the arguement that the Internment camps were a bad idea and the Orcs should have just been wiped out... *ahem*

The Bladesong, under Grom, were still raiding human communities throughout the Lorderon sub-contenant. The Blackrocks are STILL trying to burn towns to the ground over 30 years later. The Burning Blade kept on with their demon worshiping schtick and are still doing it to this day.

Only the Frostwolves, who went into hiding emediately after comming through the portal, weren't overtly hostile, even after the Orcs supposedly went docile.

We can barely integrate people who come from likeminded cultures into outs (for instance, American migrating to the UK). Integration of a totally alien, overtly hostile species is a pipe dream a best, a fantasy more realistically.
Wow, I'm feeling like my writing is being very misunderstood right now.

First, the Original Post asks if the humans had any other conceivable options other then killing off or imprisoning the orcs. I have stated that, yes, they potentially had other options, and examined one, assimilation. Both, giving it merits and treating it with skepticism.

I did not judge the Azerothians' choice as either right or wrong. So, you are incorrect, Heon, in assuming I said the Azerothians "had" to do anything. I did not say what should have happened, but another option that could have.

As for your "breaking news," I already pointed it out in both my posts. Note, how I said we don't actually know if assimilation was possible, because of the orcs' demon-taint and withdrawal.

Back to the argument. I wasn't in the world of Azeroth at the time, so I don't know how long it took the majority of Azerothians/Azerothian leaders to realize the orcs were simply another race, not demonic in nature, that had the same potential for civilization/society/"humanity" as themselves. And I recognize this as a flaw in the idea of assimilation being conceivable to Azerothians.

However, by the time of the internment camps, there were some Azerothian orcs existing without being demon-tainted. There were some that formed societies and tribes. We know that orcs were breeding, and I highly doubt that most humans coming in contact with an orcish child could view it as purely evil and destructive. I'm betting somewhere by the time of the internment camps, the Azerothian leaders should have had adequate time to understand orcs as multifaceted, contradictory in nature, and capable of being both beneficial and destructive to themselves and others. Just like Earth humans, and Azerothians. Therefore, assimilating some, through force into their own cultures, or subservient territories, could have seemed like a possible decision. Of course, not all orcs would have accepted these terms.

I'm also not saying "total integration" is possible or not. Although I would imagine the orcs would always see themselves as a separate people. I'm saying, if orcs do have the same potential abilities and needs as humans, dwarves, elves, trolls, tauren, etc, (And I think they all do, they just have different cultural values and pursuits.) the Azerothians might have realized it, and let them carry on living, under Azerothian military control, without the ability to raise an army or opposition. Maybe eventually the orcs would have integrated completely, maybe they would have become allies, maybe they would have always been a conquered people with human governors. I'm just examining another choice the Azerothians had.

And I recognize they might have had such limited information on the orcs, that it would not have been a possible, rational decision at all.
10/07/2012 08:37 PMPosted by Silvurn
First, the Original Post asks if the humans had any other conceivable options other then killing off or imprisoning the orcs. I have stated that, yes, they potentially had other options, and examined one, assimilation. Both, giving it merits and treating it with skepticism.


they had the option of keeping the camps clean, educateing the orcs, not abuseing the orcs physicaly, not forcing the orcs to do battle in arenas for their own entertainment, and not leaving treasonus jerks like Blackmoore in charge of the orcs.

they could have also let Dalaran study the orcs and figure out what was going on. then mabey "fixed" the orcs. does anyone know why no one in the alliance ever seems to listen to Dalaran when it would help? Also why everyone only starts to listen to Dalaran after the fan has been hit?
Say, when you guys watched Independence Day you also gave the protagonists flak for not trying to hug and understand the galactic locusts that were trying to destroy humanity?
10/07/2012 08:53 PMPosted by Juibloc
First, the Original Post asks if the humans had any other conceivable options other then killing off or imprisoning the orcs. I have stated that, yes, they potentially had other options, and examined one, assimilation. Both, giving it merits and treating it with skepticism.


they had the option of keeping the camps clean, educateing the orcs, not abuseing the orcs physicaly, not forcing the orcs to do battle in arenas for their own entertainment, and not leaving treasonus jerks like Blackmoore in charge of the orcs.

they could have also let Dalaran study the orcs and figure out what was going on. then mabey "fixed" the orcs. does anyone know why no one in the alliance ever seems to listen to Dalaran when it would help? Also why everyone only starts to listen to Dalaran after the fan has been hit?


... MOST camps were kept clean. Educating the orcs was impossible because ALL the orcs went into a lethargy, and wouldn't do ANYTHING, including getting out of their own filth. Abusing them physically did not happen for the most part, because most of the time before the lethargy, the orcs HAD to be kept in line through violence because they attacked their jailors all the time. I don't call that abusing, I call that jailors defending themselves. Orcs were NEVER massively forced to fight each other. And if traitors were as easy to find out as you seem to think, do you really think that Alterac would have been allowed to betray the other Human kingdoms? Do you really think that everyone everywhere purposely ignored that Blackmoore was raising an orc for the purpose of controlling the Horde and becoming king of Lordaeron?

Dalaran WAS let study the orcs. Their greatest minds, including Antonidas, made their research. They didn't find anything to cure the Orcs because Thrall freed them before anything could be done.
10/07/2012 09:00 PMPosted by Heon
Say, when you guys watched Independence Day you also gave the protagonists flak for not trying to hug and understand the galactic locusts that were trying to destroy humanity?


Orcs aren't purely evil in nature. All I'm questioning is when that became apparent to the Azerothian leaders. And it might not have been until after the internment camps.
Orcs aren't purely evil in nature. All I'm questioning is when that became apparent to the Azerothian leaders. And it might not have been until after the internment camps.


I'm not sure you can even say this without a great deal of meta knowledge.
10/07/2012 09:26 PMPosted by Arkturas
Orcs aren't purely evil in nature. All I'm questioning is when that became apparent to the Azerothian leaders. And it might not have been until after the internment camps.


I'm not sure you can even say this without a great deal of meta knowledge.


I'm not sure either. But maybe, through application of understanding real life cultures.

I think the mark of good fantasy is making something impossible believable. Part of that is sometimes creating fantastical species just as human as your readers. I think Blizz has taken this approach with most of the playable races, although not all the NPC ones, such as murlocs which clearly have different limitations then orcs/trolls/humans/dwarves/etc.

How long would it take various Earth cultures to recognize another culture as having the same capacities for creation and destruction or virtue and sin, despite their actions? How long would it take those various cultures to understand all humans as multifaceted? Perhaps the Azerothians had opportunities before the camps to view the orcs as, not a race solely and naturally hellbent on destruction, but another people with very opposing values that might have the capacity to function as Azerothians do. Or at least the capacity to serve under their laws without violent opposition.
I'm inclined to think it's a case of good idea, horrible execution. I mean, they put ALL of the Orcs in camps. It didn't matter who they were, what they did, they were all put into camps. Not one orc was executed for crimes against humanity. All of their leaders were left alive. The Alliance treated all Orcs one in the same and didn't make any discernations.

There's no satisfaction to be had from the camps. Not for the Alliance and not the for orcs. The Alliance didn't get justice, the Orcs didn't have a future.
I'm not sure either. But maybe, through application of understanding real life cultures.

I think the mark of good fantasy is making something impossible believable. Part of that is sometimes creating fantastical species just as human as your readers. I think Blizz has taken this approach with most of the playable races, although not all the NPC ones, such as murlocs which clearly have different limitations then orcs/trolls/humans/dwarves/etc.

How long would it take various Earth cultures to recognize another culture as having the same capacities for creation and destruction or virtue and sin, despite their actions? How long would it take those various cultures to understand all humans as multifaceted? Perhaps the Azerothians had opportunities before the camps to view the orcs as, not a race solely and naturally hellbent on destruction, but another people with very opposing values that might have the capacity to function as Azerothians do. Or at least the capacity to serve under their laws without violent opposition.


If such a race had just been captured after invading the Earth and violently slaughtering Asia, Europe and Africa, I seriously doubt the survivors would be placed in interment camps and left to rot. They would be lucky to be captured alive. No.. they would be lucky to be killed while trying to be captured. Any survivors would be treated very badly. And genocide on the surviving aliens would be nearly a certainty.
I'm inclined to think it's a case of good idea, horrible execution. I mean, they put ALL of the Orcs in camps. It didn't matter who they were, what they did, they were all put into camps. Not one orc was executed for crimes against humanity. All of their leaders were left alive. The Alliance treated all Orcs one in the same and didn't make any discernations.

There's no satisfaction to be had from the camps. Not for the Alliance and not the for orcs. The Alliance didn't get justice, the Orcs didn't have a future.


To be honest, the only orcs that had nothing to do with the two wars were the Frostwolves (they were involved in the attacks on the Draenei though. Against the humans, they are the only innocent orcs on Azeroth), every other orc however -was- directly involved in the mass extinction of the Alliance (of the time) and it's races.
Which is why I think the only ones that should have gone in the camps would have been peons and the women and children. All Orc males of age and with fighting builds would have been executed.

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