Rogue Issues and Solutions (serious)

Rogue
After spending quite a bit of time reading through concerns about our class, playing, and looking at other class changes for MoP, I think Rogue issues can be broken down into just a few primary issues. Addressing these primary issues is critical to balancing the rogue class.

Primary Issues

1) Mobility
You could probably argue whether mobility or survivability is a more pressing concern, although the two really go hand-in-hand. Sadly, mobility should probably be a strength of the Rogue class, yet at the moment is perhaps its biggest issue.

Other classes have a baseline gap-closer on a 15 second cooldown, with added benefits like breaking stuns, the ability to dispel or escape stuns/roots as baseline, and vanish-like abilities on 30 second cooldowns (see: Displacer Beast for Druids, for example).

Rogues have Vanish, on a 3 minute cooldown, which doubles as our only real escape tool and one of two ways to break roots/snares; and Shadowstep, which is a talent, on a 24 second cooldown, and has no added benefit beyond a paltry speed boost.

The good news is, Rogues already have all the tools at their disposal necessary to be a highly mobile class. Vanish and Shadowstep alone, with more reasonable cooldowns (for example, 15/30 second, on par with other classes) and baseline across the class, is all it takes to fix Rogue mobility.

2) Survivability
Improvements to mobility alone will probably have an appreciable impact on Rogue survivability. After all, the best defense is often a good offense. From a PvE perspective, Rogues are doing alright. Elusiveness is one of our better new talents.

In PvP, simply fixing some of the burst damage a few classes are putting out (Arms Warriors and BM Hunters in particular), will also go a long ways in fixing this issue.

A strategic "out" against bleeds, damage mitigation that can be used while incapacitated, increased base dodge rate, and improving recuperate all come to mind as possible options, although I don't have any concrete suggestions here. Improved mobility and nerfs to certain other classes may really be sufficient.

3) Damage
Rogue damage from an aggregate perspective is probably fine. It could possibly be tuned slightly higher, but that would be a minimal, less than 1% change. The issue with Rogue damage is that it simply is far too passive.

Depending on spec and build, 60-70% of Rogue damage could come from passive damage. This makes the class not only less fun to play, but, coupled with mobility issues, makes Rogue damage in PvP feel terrible.

Rogue damage needs to be re-tuned so that, ideally, 60-70% of damage is coming from active abilities. At a minimum, it needs to return to the old 50/50 split.

Ways to fix this include nerfing Slice and Dice and buffing active skills' damage, although I won't bother listing everything since each spec has its own slightly different mechanics that would need tweaking.

Secondary Issues
Beyond the primary issues, there are some additional secondary issues that should still be addressed, but have a comparatively minimal impact on Rogues' viability. In better years, this category is where most complaints fall.

1) Cooldowns
I know a lot of people put this as a primary issue, although I think I've split it into two and addressed the more pressing issue with Mobility.

Long cooldowns should be reserved for skills that must be used strategically and will almost certainly have a significant impact, if not mitigated (if possible). This includes large damage increases such as Shadow Blades and Adrenaline Rush, large instant heals such as Lay on Hands, invulnerability, such as Pally bubble, etc.

It should not include minor utility skills. Thankfully our cooldowns have comedown from the insanity that was vanilla (5 min everything, including Sprint, 6 min AR); however, there's still a significant difference between a skill like Shadow Blades and a skill like Blind.

Large cooldowns should be strategic game changers, but a class or spec should be viable outside of one or two such abilities.

2) Activity
This may go along with passive damage. Many Rogues complain about being "energy starved." How a class "feels" can be as or more important than how it actually performs. Just look at the thread about using Shuriken Toss as a CP generator as an example.

Rogues need to "feel" more active, with a quicker tempo (particular Assassination rogues).

3) Raid Utility
Small improvements have been made in this direction, and I don't think this is quite as large an issue as it once was. More active, universally applicable utility (as opposed to gimmicky) would be ideal though.

4) Positioning
As other classes become increasingly mobile, and a growing list of boss fights have at least some stages during which a Rogue can't get behind the target, the need to remove all positional requirements increases.

We've already gone 80% of the way there. Only three abilities remain with a positional requirement, and one has a glyph to remove it (Gouge). Let's just get it over with and remove the positional requirement for the last two abilities (Backstab and Ambush).
I have an idea for mobility as I strongly believe we should have the best as a leather wearing melee(monks have alot actually, I use flying serpent kick like a charge to great effect I mean you can travel 40yrds with it, it's stupid far!)

Shadowstep should be baseline with 24sec CD, the talent for it should be changed to a talent which reduces the CD to 15 secs.

Prep should be taken out of our talents or moved somewhere else. Instead we should get a passive talent in it's place that gives Sprint a 100% chance to remove all snares and roots and prevent them from being applied for it's duration. If sprint is not used to break a snare or root it should not provide this benefit.

BoS. My current issue is that while this move is a joke right now something tells me it's going to become really powerful, too powerful in fact as our gear scales. So I'm torn between reducing it's cost or keeping it the same dependent on our haste scaling

Our current lvl 90 talents need to be reworked. Redirect w/o a cd should be baseline for Combat spec in my opinion. I've heard the solution of stacking CP on the rogue but I personally agree with Blizz on this. Combo points should stack on target. Why? Because the idea behind them is that the rogue launches attack to set his target up to finish them. The rogue isn't planning to evis himself. Before you can throw a haymaker(and expect it to land or not have you lights knocked out) you have to throw some quick relatively light punches to throw you opponet off and create a opening. It doesn't really make sense that if I do that to one target I can run over to a random one and just open up on them with a finisher.

I like Anticipation and it's a really useful pve talent. Not flashly but really damn useful as it's made my rotation soo muc smoother. Keep it.

Shuriken Toss is a slap in the face. It really !@#$ing is. It's basically throw. You took throw from us and then gave it back as a lvl 90 talent? It belongs if any where in the lvl 30 talents(not even there in my opinion) not lvl 90.

I disagree with the OP that Ambush and Backstab should lose their positional requirements. One reason they're powerful(or suppose to be Blizz) is that requirement, also it doesn't make sense to "Backstab" someone in the face. Also that suggestion moves us further from the feel of rogues and more like a gimped warrior who left his plate and cool two hander at home. If I wanted to just mash MS regardless of where I stand I'd play a warrior. One of my complaints about Combat spec is this infact. I feel like a gimped warrior as combat, not a rogue.
I have an idea for mobility as I strongly believe we should have the best as a leather wearing melee(monks have alot actually, I use flying serpent kick like a charge to great effect I mean you can travel 40yrds with it, it's stupid far!)

Shadowstep should be baseline with 24sec CD, the talent for it should be changed to a talent which reduces the CD to 15 secs.

Prep should be taken out of our talents or moved somewhere else. Instead we should get a passive talent in it's place that gives Sprint a 100% chance to remove all snares and roots and prevent them from being applied for it's duration. If sprint is not used to break a snare or root it should not provide this benefit.

BoS. My current issue is that while this move is a joke right now something tells me it's going to become really powerful, too powerful in fact as our gear scales. So I'm torn between reducing it's cost or keeping it the same dependent on our haste scaling

Our current lvl 90 talents need to be reworked. Redirect w/o a cd should be baseline for Combat spec in my opinion. I've heard the solution of stacking CP on the rogue but I personally agree with Blizz on this. Combo points should stack on target. Why? Because the idea behind them is that the rogue launches attack to set his target up to finish them. The rogue isn't planning to evis himself. Before you can throw a haymaker(and expect it to land or not have you lights knocked out) you have to throw some quick relatively light punches to throw you opponet off and create a opening. It doesn't really make sense that if I do that to one target I can run over to a random one and just open up on them with a finisher.

I like Anticipation and it's a really useful pve talent. Not flashly but really damn useful as it's made my rotation soo muc smoother. Keep it.

Shuriken Toss is a slap in the face. It really !@#$ing is. It's basically throw. You took throw from us and then gave it back as a lvl 90 talent? It belongs if any where in the lvl 30 talents(not even there in my opinion) not lvl 90.

I disagree with the OP that Ambush and Backstab should lose their positional requirements. One reason they're powerful(or suppose to be Blizz) is that requirement, also it doesn't make sense to "Backstab" someone in the face. Also that suggestion moves us further from the feel of rogues and more like a gimped warrior who left his plate and cool two hander at home. If I wanted to just mash MS regardless of where I stand I'd play a warrior. One of my complaints about Combat spec is this infact. I feel like a gimped warrior as combat, not a rogue.


ST is actually pretty good in PvP. It pops poisons and only costs 30 energy. At the current state of slow energy regen, it's a good way to gain combo points, especially when you're getting kited.
You forgot the making rogues take no damage, and do one hit kills.
ST is actually pretty good in PvP. It pops poisons and only costs 30 energy. At the current state of slow energy regen, it's a good way to gain combo points, especially when you're getting kited.

I don't really understand why it has to be a lvl 90 talent however, or even be a talent. What good reason is there for not making it appear lower in the tiers or be an ability you get as you lvl. Also it being used as a good mean to gain cp in our energy starved state isn't a point for it, it's indicitive of a problem and being used to bandaid it on our part. Also I think it cost 20 energy. Not to mention we use to have a baseline throw that could apply poisons at the normal rate now we have to spec it? Throwing is never optimal, it's always a last resort thing for a rogue so making it a talent is really non-sense.
Prep should be taken out of our talents or moved somewhere else.


if prep was moved baseline rogues could finally say they RECEIVED something in mop(it would also justify the cooldown increases to every single rogue cooldown).

I also think shadow step should be moved baseline with a 30 second cooldown due to all the f'ing slows everyone seems to have these days.(with prep being baseline it would be more comparable to other gap closers at 15 seconds, except once in awhile we can do it twice)

i think blind needs to be seriously adjusted and balanced. Blind used to be balanced because not every class had a cc and usually cc's had to be cast. Now EVERY class has cc, none of it is on a 3 minute cooldown, and most of them arent affected by aoe. For what blind does, and how easy it is to break, and its absurd cooldown, it is the worst cc in the game.
I would also like to see the positional requirement for backstab and ambush removed. With that said, we've been missing the increased crit chance on those abilities, so how about adding them back BUT only be in effect when we are behind the target? Maybe the effect can last for the duration of find weakness?
10/10/2012 10:25 AMPosted by Orexis
it doesn't make sense to "Backstab" someone in the face.


It makes all the sense in the world right now. That is all I feel like doing to everything I see because I am so frustrated with my mobility and survivability. However, they should have positional requirements and they should remain powerful due to that nature. With the exception of Ambush there isn't a CP generating ability that deals sufficient damage.
Those are great suggestions for change. I am also unhappy with the current state of things. Mostly regarding PvP. PvE is OK....but like you said it would definitely be 100x more fun if 60-70% of our damage wasn't from auto attacking.

A lot of classes got something to look forward to at 90 where we got things that I feel should belong to a certain spec as a passive. So I agree with you there as well.

It's nice that you provided solutions and hopefully somebody will read this and rethink what crap we received in this xpac.
Although positional requirements seem like an old mechanic, it's certainly nothing I would complain about when we have so many bigger issues.

Also, no way I'd ask for 15 second talented shadowstep. Warriors get 12 second charge with talents, why should we spend the same talent point and get something worse?

Shadow step should be 12 second with talent, unless they nerf warrior charge. The abilities are basically the same except charge is still probably considered better because it has the stun.
Although positional requirements seem like an old mechanic, it's certainly nothing I would complain about when we have so many bigger issues. Also, no way I'd ask for 15 second talented shadowstep. Warriors get 12 second charge with talents, why should we spend the same talent point and get something worse? Shadow step should be 12 second with talent, unless they nerf warrior charge. The abilities are basically the same except charge is still probably considered better because it has the stun.


The reason I say a 15sec CD with talents is because ShS is superior in some regards to Charge. A warrior can't charge up a sheer incline. I can ShS up it though. Charge can't be used to move to an ally. ShS can. Also You have to take into account all our other mobility giving abilities and possible talents. 15secs is quite good. Infact it's on par with mage blink, twice as fast as Displacer Beast, and faster then the shortest CD for disengage. You can't just consider ShS in a vaccum next to other things or we risk becoming OP. If the goal is balance and not just buffing your favorite class to god-mode then we will realize a 15 sec ShS is just right. Especially if Prep was made Baseline or our CDs were brought back to a reasonable time.

Vanish-2min CloS-1.5min Blind-1.5 min plus a ShS-15 secs. And we'd be in a level position mobility wise.
[quote]The reason I say a 15sec CD with talents is because ShS is superior in some regards to Charge. A warrior can't charge up a sheer incline. I can ShS up it though. Charge can't be used to move to an ally. ShS can. Also You have to take into account all our other mobility giving abilities and possible talents. 15secs is quite good. Infact it's on par with mage blink, twice as fast as Displacer Beast


I'd say Displacer Beast is a closer equivalent to Vanish. And you really can't compare our mobility to Druids, who are practically impossible to CC.

Rogues probably should be one of the more mobile classes though, considering its melee and positional requirements.
I think ShS should be 30 secs~ baseline with a talent to give ShS a target drop as well as perhaps reduced cd (although that would make it op probably), I just think ShS would have added utility if it could do this.

Just something new.

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