A Healer's Concern with Challenge Modes

Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
I recently read mmo champ's interview with one of the players who was in the world first full gold challenge group and almost right away they mention how they would often run as a healerless group. While I don't deny the ability that it must have took to accomplish this feat, I feel that this puts me in an awkward place as a PvE healer main as I will most likely be forced to play as dps should I want to consider pushing for a top percentile time. Clearly gold is possible with only 3 dps but the competition on challenge runs is focused on the fastest time rather that just the medal. With all the efforts put in place by Blizzard for there to not necessarily be a best class or role, in general, to be able to play at a high level (for example, a feral druid could achieve gladiator or world first boss kills) this seems to be an oversight.

Your thoughts?
I suspect we are going to see a major rework of challenge modes before its tried again.

Its going to move to something more completion based than time based, the abuse of the system im sure is pretty quickly disavowing them of the wisdom of time based events.
Certain group compositions will work better for certain situations, what exactly do you expect? Gold is balanced enough yet you're worried about the very top % of gold? This isn't checkers, it's an mmo. Unless you homogenize everything you're not going to have everything perfectly balanced, there will always be times when class X will shine over Y and vice versa.

How about for challenge modes we give everyone just 2 abilities. The first one will be attack which does 1000 damage and cannot miss or crit, the second will be a heal that heals for 20,000 health, unable to crit as well. Let's give everyone the same health, armor, and mana too, wouldn't want anything to not be 100% fair. Let's also make it turn based combat because you don't want people with higher latency to be put at a disadvantage.

Get real, you can't balance this stuff to that level.

And if it's completion based you still have certain group combinations that will be the best, you don't change anything switching from timed runs.
My main concern is that the "prestigious" number one time slot will never belong to a group where a healed was actually their healer spec the entire time in this supposedly punishing GROUP PvE content. Maybe I just have a broken mindset on the subject but I don't think you should be able to successfully exclude an entire role from the top tier of any content.

Imagine, if you will, that all of a sudden if you weren't running all tanks and healer comps in 3s you didn't have a shot at breaking 2200. If dps were to suddenly not be able to participate at the higher levels of pvp there would be hell to pay.
stop making "challenges" timed modes, and make them.... challenging.
10/05/2012 11:43 PMPosted by Postonforums
stop making "challenges" timed modes, and make them.... challenging.

They...are? Just pretend you berserk at the gold timer and force reset it if you must. They only exist beyond the timers as a courtesy to those who want to learn how to do them better.
Certain group compositions will work better for certain situations, what exactly do you expect? Gold is balanced enough yet you're worried about the very top % of gold? This isn't checkers, it's an mmo. Unless you homogenize everything you're not going to have everything perfectly balanced, there will always be times when class X will shine over Y and vice versa.

How about for challenge modes we give everyone just 2 abilities. The first one will be attack which does 1000 damage and cannot miss or crit, the second will be a heal that heals for 20,000 health, unable to crit as well. Let's give everyone the same health, armor, and mana too, wouldn't want anything to not be 100% fair. Let's also make it turn based combat because you don't want people with higher latency to be put at a disadvantage.

Get real, you can't balance this stuff to that level.

And if it's completion based you still have certain group combinations that will be the best, you don't change anything switching from timed runs.


There is a pretty big difference between "some comps are better than others" and not bringing an entire role just because hybrids are blood DKs have too much healing capability.
10/06/2012 03:09 PMPosted by Darthelmet
There is a pretty big difference between "some comps are better than others" and not bringing an entire role just because hybrids are blood DKs have too much healing capability.


You still have the option of going Ret or Protection, as long as DPS are always required, they'll be fair, as Every single class has that option.

Healers might not get the absolute best times, but on the other hand, you'll still get the reward.

Absolute BEST will always be gimmick or exploitation.

There is a pretty big difference between "some comps are better than others" and not bringing an entire role just because hybrids are blood DKs have too much healing capability.


This is basically my concern. I would propose that you need a healer spec and a tank spec to be required to start the challenge mode then once started the tank and healer cannot swap to their other spec at any time during the run.


You still have the option of going Ret or Protection, as long as DPS are always required, they'll be fair, as Every single class has that option.


This is a very valid point and what I am afraid Blizzard would tell me. I just want to heal in the most challenging PvE 5 man content and I believe that healers should be a viable option (if not as necessary as a tank or dps) to shoot for a world top time in content which is intended for a group comprised of a tank, three dps, and a healer.
10/05/2012 11:43 PMPosted by Postonforums
stop making "challenges" timed modes, and make them.... challenging.


This
10/07/2012 10:25 AMPosted by Moradìm
my main issue is they are pretty comp dependent, like...a rogue shroud allows you to shave off tons of time, or invis pots, etc. also, hybrids most definitely give you an edge, a spriest can heal quite well, or a ret with selfless healer, etc. all save your healer lots of mana (and time).


As much as I hate this I actually can deal with it. Any tank-dps-dps-dps-healer should probably be able to get any gold but stacking certain classes for certain mechanics on particular encounters is what will get those number one times. I don't believe there is any way to avoid this without making classes so homogeneous you can't tell the difference between a rogue and a warlock. But being able to cut out a healer from the 5 man challenge modes would like replacing tanks with dps to meet the damage requirements for any Patchwerk style boss.
This type of thing happens everywhere in the game and isn't limited to 5 mans.

Look what happens when we do bleeding edge raid content. You cut as many healers as you can possibly get away with.

People doing Heroic Baleroc 25 with 4 healers or Heroic Ragnaros with 3 healers. In my opinion that is almost as bad as people using only hybrid healing and CDs to survive without a traditional healer on some of the things in 5 mans.

Maybe it does suck and you can't compete for the 'best' time unless you have a tailor made group with people who practice the pull over and over again, but I don't see how that's any different than raiding honestly. While Heroic raid content isn't timed in the traditional stop watch sense, it's still timed by who does it first. The people who do Heroic raid content first stack the strongest classes, practice the encounter a lot and obviously know how to play their class. Some raid encounters can be just as gimmicky as some of these 5 man pulls.

I am convinced any CLASS can do well in 5 man challenge modes but unfortunately it's never going to be tuned that each individual spec within that class is going to be strong on every single one of them. I really don't think there is a universal fit all composition that can compete for WORLD first times in challenge modes, but that same statement is true of heroic raiding firsts as well. Could we have gotten by without stacking resto shaman, sub rogues and mages on Heroic Spine? Yeah, but that's obviously the best comp.

I really don't know what they could do to ensure that Healer's are needed in challenge modes all the time. We are on the brink of our 4th gold and we have run a traditional tank/healer/dps/dps/dps composition with the same group. Sometimes our Holy Paladin glyphs for offensive DPS when we can get away with it.

my main issue is they are pretty comp dependent, like...a rogue shroud allows you to shave off tons of time, or invis pots, etc. also, hybrids most definitely give you an edge, a spriest can heal quite well, or a ret with selfless healer, etc. all save your healer lots of mana (and time).

the best times are essentially for who clears/bypasses trash the quickest, bosses are generally straight forward. also, many of the golds were achieved before tank damage got some nerfs, it's no secret that prot wars or blood dks for example were doing incredible dps, especially on big pulls.


You essentially can use one or the other when it comes to rogue shroud or invisibility potions. Of the four challenge modes I've attempted we haven't found that we could use both in one instance. Rogues still get the inherent advantage of freeing up potions though multiple times through the instance, where invisibility potions will eat up lots of potential uses of pots.

People are just using their abilities to their advantage and I think that's fun. Hybrid healing is certainly strong and very helpful but just like PvP it's a global you typically have to spend, and a global can be a lot, especially if you're talking seconds. If you're running without a traditional healer you probably can't pull a massive pack and AoE it down as quickly as you might think. If you do you're likely going to be eating lots of your hybrids globals which in turn can eat into your DPS. Not saying hybrid healing isn't strong because it certainly is though.

The thing I enjoy about them as opposed to raiding is that you get to use a lot more abilities than you typically do in raids. It's a lot like PvP but obviously a lot more predictable.
10/06/2012 03:15 PMPosted by Postonforums
There is a pretty big difference between "some comps are better than others" and not bringing an entire role just because hybrids are blood DKs have too much healing capability.


You still have the option of going Ret or Protection, as long as DPS are always required, they'll be fair, as Every single class has that option.

Healers might not get the absolute best times, but on the other hand, you'll still get the reward.

Absolute BEST will always be gimmick or exploitation.


I would say that's ok if maybe it was a guild doing crazy things for a world 1st raid boss kill when they are under geared because that's "the absolute best" and later kills wont have to do these crazy things to down the fights because they have the advantage of gear/nerfs that the world 1st kill didn't have. In the case of challenge modes, assuming they don't get nerfed, everyone going in there will always have a relatively similar playing field for the entire expansion, meaning that there will never be an acceptable high end comp that uses a healer.

I think the biggest thing this highlights is that they were supposed to be tuned to be harder than the heroics even ignoring the time limit, the fact that the damage intake is so low that a dedicated healer isn't even required means there is something terribly wrong with the way the mode is balanced.
The damage intake is high though.

The reason people can get away without healers is because they run multiple hybrids (which is just as good as one healer), pop large defensive CDs, coordinate stuns/cc and use things like AoTD/Earth Elemental totems to give them time to unload.

It's less about damage intake and more about coordinating CDs and chaining CC. If you slip up and miss your CC or interrupt your tank/group will likely go splat in seconds.

We might not have the best time for some of the ones we did because we have a traditional healer, but I know for certain that you can pull extra packs with a dedicated healer on some of the pulls.

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