The Stampede Thread to End The Other Threads.

Hunter
Stampede, when working as intended, is fine and is not the main source of our burst.

However,

There is currently an "issue" with Stampede pets scaling with RAP that I was able to test this morning.

If you are over 40k RAP due to procs/buffs/CDs, each Stampede pet WILL hit for around 20k basic attacks on targets with Resilience (and non-plate armor, as Stampede damage is physical).

With no CDs blown, class buffs, etc., each Stampede pet will only hit for around 1-4k on a target with resilience.

Because I'm not sure of the multipliers/variables used when Stampede was nerfed from 175% pet damage to 25% damage on the MoP PTR, I can't give you the exact mathematical reason for this seeming disparity in the numbers. Depending on which variable in the damage equations they decided to reduce to achieve the calculated damage of Pet compared to StampedePet, it is very possible that the "25%" number is just an approximation based on a more complicated formula that overscales when a larger-than-expected RAP variable is introduced.

THINGS THAT STAMPEDE IS NOT
  • Stampede is not "ignoring resilience." If you would like to test this yourself, do what I did -- start a trash 2s to test abilities, find a team with a cloth-wearer and kill the other player. Freeze trap the other player, and then use ONLY Stampede on him without blowing any other CDs. You will notice that the damage done to him will only be around 1-4k per hit per pet. Then go to the target dummy after the match ends, and do the exact same thing. Stampede will hit higher on the target dummy, despite the armor values being similar, which only leaves resilience as a mitigating factor.
  • Stampede is not "doing 100% pet damage." With all these cooldowns blown, your main pet is still doing considerably harder hits than the Stampede pets.
  • Stampede is not a "one-shot win button" against any competent team any more than "Swifty's One-Shot Warrior Macro" is. You have to have a lot of factors aligning properly to actually do this in an arena environment, since getting your RAP above the curve that heavily biases the damage requires RNG procs -- scope, RNG trinket -- as well as burst CDs (unless you're an Orc with Blood Fury, which is an easy 5k after taking into account the stacking buffs from Hawk/TSA), and even if you do manage to pull this off, the loud "HOOOOORRRRRN" warns enemies far ahead of time to use defensive CDs, much in the same way that a warrior turning big and grey does. The pets are all CC'able, the pets are all snareable and rootable.
  • Stampede is not the reason you are losing arena matches. Stampede is more intelligently utilized as a strong self-heal and saved for such in comps that don't rely on HURR CDS ZERG, not for its avoidable burst. You are in much bigger danger of dying to Lynx Rush->Readiness->Lynx Rush because you separated from the rest of your team than you are Stampede.
  • []Stampede is not "doing 100% pet damage." With all these cooldowns blown, your main pet is still doing considerably harder hits than the Stampede pets


    Good post, but how do you explain these 43k bites from stampeding pets?

    http://goo.gl/yvvvc
    10/11/2012 09:53 AMPosted by Arrowset
    []Stampede is not "doing 100% pet damage." With all these cooldowns blown, your main pet is still doing considerably harder hits than the Stampede pets


    Good post, but how do you explain these 43k bites from stampeding pets?

    http://goo.gl/yvvvc


    http://www.wowhead.com/spell=114207

    Every team I've seen people complain about these massive pet crits on has had a warrior on it. Feel free to show me evidence to the contrary, I'm open to it.

    EDIT: Looking into something, sec.
    EDIT2: Arrowset, do you know the name of the hunter that screencap is from? I'd like to check out his stable. This also looks like a matter of Cobra Strikes guaranteeing crits for the Stampede pets, since the odds that they would all crit simultaneously based on pure RNG are low. He was still hitting the target with Arcane, so probably procced it. It doesn't show up in his log though since his log isn't set to detail all actions and buffs.
    ____________
    EDIT3: Oh, this is Kettux.

    Kettux is, first an foremost, an Orc. This means he already has a 5% passive increase to all pet damage solely because of his Command racial. Additionally, he has Blood Fury to push his RAP over what any other race is going to be capable of in the same gear. On top of that, he has a 5% agility buff from his druid partner, he's using double damage trinkets instead of the Remove CC trinket, and look at his stable.

    a) Ferocity Serpent. Rabid + Spiked Collar + Serpent's Swiftness
    b) Ferocity Devilsaur. Rabid + Spiked Collar + 25% Healing Reduction
    c) Ferocity Spirit Beast. Rabid + Spiked Collar + 10% Mastery buff, increasing all pet damage by 10%. Stampede pets are included with this buff.
    d) Ferocity Rhino. Rabid + Spiked Collar + additional 4% physical damage debuff. This is important, as all Stampede damage is physical.
    e) Ferocity Wind Serpent. Rabid + Spiked Collar + addtional 8% magic damage debuff.

    It's actually a really solid setup if he's not feeling reliant on the Stampede Spirit Mend for survivability, which he shouldn't considering he rolls with a resto druid and a SP that can drop back to off-healing in a pinch.

    Taken all together, you have:

    - Extra 5% Pet Damage
    - Extra 4% Physical Damage vulnerability
    - Extra 5% Agility from Druid Buff
    - All Ferocity Pets with Rabid and Spiked Collar
    - Cobra Strikes proccing guaranteed crits
    - All CDs blown
    - Double damage trinkets (normally only applies to humans without the Orc Command racial, making it particularly devastating as BM)

    This is just basic stat/ability stacking and taking advantage of basic game mechanics, not anything bugged or glitched. If he DID have a warrior on his team with Skull Banner, this would get very ugly very quickly.
    The one video with the guy in PvE gear had a resto Druid on the team. Not the banner but could play a role for extra cits.
    10/11/2012 10:03 AMPosted by Actæon
    The one video with the guy in PvE gear had a resto Druid on the team. Not the banner but could play a role for extra cits.


    Link the video and I'll elucidate on the buffs he had at the time.
    Ill only agree to a certian extent. I will say the longer it has been out and known about the damage hunters are capable of doing with cooldowns, if you watch any of the higher rated players, they've adjusted strategies and are able to avoid it a good portion of the time. Properly using cd's and CCing the pets, after the cooldowns where gone, they zerged the hunters pet, then killed the hunter. It seemed to work well for them (seen in Vanguards Stream from current TR).

    Most people will say I'm ignorant but honestly, It's bursty but truely no worse than warriors or rets, Also the chatter from the stream according to Vanguards' Rogue, on TR Rogues fully geared are able to kill people in Kidney Shots again, and Vanguards solo's healers in 4 seconds. So really whats the difference?

    I play a warrior as well, half of someones health bar in 2 globals never surprises me.

    It may seem, feel or look imbalanced, but please. As you're mobbing at the door of opposing classes, weither you're a warrior, a rogue, a ret, a mage, a spriest, a hunter. Please look at yourselfs as well.

    There are plenty of things that can be changed to make the game a little better, noone is an exception in this.

    Obviously I'm not a Veteran in PvP, so someone higher rated than me will probably roll by to call me a moron, but thats fine, because we all have opinions right?.

    According to GC from Twitter;

    Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler
    @sorin255 We think Stampede is ok, as long as it's not with Lynx Rush, Rabid and BRP.

    Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler
    @Satoriso We don't like the BM 'skill' macro, but WoW also has a storied history of videos that demo what their makers want them to demo.

    Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler
    @sorin255 We think Stampede is ok, as long as it's not with Lynx Rush, Rabid and BRP.

    So, it looks like they're probably going to nerf it how they done warriors in the past, and not make cd's chainable.
    Ill only agree to a certian extent. I will say the longer it has been out and known about the damage hunters are capable of doing with cooldowns, if you watch any of the higher rated players, they've adjusted strategies and are able to avoid it a good portion of the time. Properly using cd's and CCing the pets, after the cooldowns where gone, they zerged the hunters pet, then killed the hunter. It seemed to work well for them (seen in Vanguards Stream from current TR).

    Most people will say I'm ignorant but honestly, It's bursty but truely no worse than warriors or rets, Also the chatter from the stream according to Vanguards' Rogue, on TR Rogues fully geared are able to kill people in Kidney Shots again, and Vanguards solo's healers in 4 seconds. So really whats the difference?

    I play a warrior as well, half of someones health bar in 2 globals never surprises me.

    It may seem, feel or look imbalanced, but please. As you're mobbing at the door of opposing classes, weither you're a warrior, a rogue, a ret, a mage, a spriest, a hunter. Please look at yourselfs as well.

    There are plenty of things that can be changed to make the game a little better, noone is an exception in this.

    Obviously I'm not a Veteran in PvP, so someone higher rated than me will probably roll by to call me a moron, but thats fine, because we all have opinions right?.

    According to GC from Twitter;

    Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler
    @sorin255 We think Stampede is ok, as long as it's not with Lynx Rush, Rabid and BRP.

    Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler
    @Satoriso We don't like the BM 'skill' macro, but WoW also has a storied history of videos that demo what their makers want them to demo.

    Greg Street ‏@Ghostcrawler
    @sorin255 We think Stampede is ok, as long as it's not with Lynx Rush, Rabid and BRP.

    So, it looks like they're probably going to nerf it how they done warriors in the past, and not make cd's chainable.


    What is BRP?
    10/11/2012 10:04 AMPosted by Celltech
    The one video with the guy in PvE gear had a resto Druid on the team. Not the banner but could play a role for extra cits.


    Link the video and I'll elucidate on the buffs he had at the time.


    Video was in the NERF HUNTERS thread; first page. *shrug* inb4 mmr, pvp, skill, etc. We know we know, bro.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3t6phz0sGik --from video description "Krippie's druid was resto. Both him and Swae had full PvE gear. Fun times!"
    10/11/2012 09:34 AMPosted by Celltech
    If you are over 40k RAP due to procs/buffs/CDs, each Stampede pet WILL hit for around 20k basic attacks on targets with Resilience (and non-plate armor, as Stampede damage is physical).


    Is there a blue post on this somewhere?

    I did some 2v2 arenas last night as MM (along with a rogue), and I can say that although BM is probably a little better with BW and spirit mend, I had no trouble facerolling the other team in mere seconds, even several teams with BM hunters. I got my [Hot Streak] achv.


    What is BRP?


    Big Red Pet aka Bestial Wrath.

    Sounds like they are going to completely isolate stampede from other burst cds, which sounds like a good approach to me. BM could use having some secondary burst potential anyway, outside of BW.

    I'll miss stampede spirit mend heals, but it gave BM too big an edge over MM and SV. One spec shouldn't have a lay on hands ability that the other two don't have.

    And to the guy who asked me the backstory on the screenshot, sorry I don't have that info.

    What is BRP?

    Big Red Pet, refers to Beastial Wrath/Beast Within.


    I did some 2v2 arenas last night as MM (along with a rogue), and I can say that although BM is probably a little better with BW and spirit mend, I had no trouble facerolling the other team in mere seconds, even several teams with BM hunters. I got my [Hot Streak] achv.


    Nice, I expect to see a lot of hunters flocking back to MM once the BM nerfs take effect.

    You get a lot of props and respect just for playing MM now.

    I've always been BM, so I'll likely stay once it's toned down.


    What is BRP?


    Big Red Pet aka Bestial Wrath.

    Sounds like they are going to completely isolate stampede from other burst cds, which sounds like a good approach to me. BM could use having some secondary burst potential anyway, outside of BW.

    I'll miss stampede spirit mend heals, but it gave BM too big an edge over MM and SV. One spec shouldn't have a lay on hands ability that the other two don't have.

    And to the guy who asked me the backstory on the screenshot, sorry I don't have that info.

    Yeah, from what I gather from the tweets, they'll make Stampede unsable with other big cooldowns.
    10/11/2012 10:40 AMPosted by Arrowset
    I'll miss stampede spirit mend heals, but it gave BM too big an edge over MM and SV.

    I don't see how those would go away? BW didn't impact Spirit Mend at all, to the best of my knowledge.
    10/11/2012 10:50 AMPosted by Zulgaro
    I'll miss stampede spirit mend heals, but it gave BM too big an edge over MM and SV.

    I don't see how those would go away? BW didn't impact Spirit Mend at all, to the best of my knowledge.

    They mean after BM gets a nerf and it's not like a Ret anymore. People will migrate back to MM. No spirit beasts, no heals.


    I did some 2v2 arenas last night as MM (along with a rogue), and I can say that although BM is probably a little better with BW and spirit mend, I had no trouble facerolling the other team in mere seconds, even several teams with BM hunters. I got my [Hot Streak] achv.


    Nice, I expect to see a lot of hunters flocking back to MM once the BM nerfs take effect.

    You get a lot of props and respect just for playing MM now.

    I've always been BM, so I'll likely stay once it's toned down.


    True, but I wasn't saying any of this in a celebratory tone--facerolling isn't particularly fun, but it demonstrates the abysmal state of PvP right now. The sad truth is, if I wasn't facerolling, I'd be getting facerolled. Hunters aren't the only OP/bugged classes. Chaos Bolt hits for >200k. And I don't need to mention the state of Warriors.

    Here are the possible nerfs I see happening (inclusive-or):
    - Stampede pets are no longer able to use their buffs or special abilities.
    - Stampede shares a CD with other burst abilities.

    As I demonstrated last night in arenas, bugged Stampede is as apparent with MM/SV as it is with BM, so either of these nerfs are going to affect the other specs proportionally, meaning that MM/SV will continue to be relatively underpowered. Hunters can go back to being undesirable for RBGs, except maybe as a canary to guard a flag and call incs.


    I did some 2v2 arenas last night as MM (along with a rogue), and I can say that although BM is probably a little better with BW and spirit mend, I had no trouble facerolling the other team in mere seconds, even several teams with BM hunters. I got my [Hot Streak] achv.


    Nice, I expect to see a lot of hunters flocking back to MM once the BM nerfs take effect.

    You get a lot of props and respect just for playing MM now.

    I've always been BM, so I'll likely stay once it's toned down.


    Try playing surv, Was in a losing AB the other day and absolutely destroying, IDK if it was the 3 cups of coffee or what but I was in the zone, we still lost the game but I ended up top damage and top KBs and had quite a few of 1v1s /1v2s.

    End of the game I did a suicide run into a a stacked group at mine, had 3 of em /salute me before I died.

    Good times :P
    Orcs get 2% to pets now...not 5%
    I'll miss stampede spirit mend heals, but it gave BM too big an edge over MM and SV.

    I don't see how those would go away? BW didn't impact Spirit Mend at all, to the best of my knowledge.


    GC basically said in a tweet that spirit mend stampede (where all 5 spirit beasts heal you) heals are going away. So right or wrong that's what's going to happen.

    Twitter is the new way of communicating with players it seems. Better than smoke signals I guess.

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