Who Started the Current War?

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Only answers with citation, sources, or quotes, PLEASE.

Please, Don't waltz in here and say Garrosh or Varian. If you think it is either one, please say why and provide evidence. This thread is to use what resources we have, not speculate. If it turns out we don't have sufficient evidence to point to either faction, then that's just how it is. We don't need to label an aggressor. I'm hoping to establish a chronological order of events.

From what I know, in The Shattering novel the Horde and Alliance have returned to an uneasy truce. Some cultists disguise themselves as Horde orcs, kill Alliance citizens/soldiers, and Varian asks Thrall to deliver them to the Alliance. Thrall says no, that didn't happen.

Is this true?

What happens next?

The Horde and Alliance have had border skirmishes and territorial disputes since Classic, but who was it that really instigated this current War, meaning the War we see in Cataclysm?

Did a leader openly declare war, or just start committing more troops to an area with previous conflict?

I'm ignorant and would really appreciate any insight from people who can quote the books.
I dont have the source im sure someone could post it ill see if i can find it but i believe it started with Ashenvale. The Orcs needed resources and the night elves denied them in protest to Wrathgate and so the orcs attacked Ashenvale. Following that Theramore and the reinforcments from Stormwind and Ironforge attacked the Barrens.
10/12/2012 10:46 AMPosted by Silvurn
Only answers with citation, sources, or quotes, PLEASE.

As of Tides of War, the war apparently only started with the Horde's destruction of Northwatch.

It doesn't make any sense at all, but according to various characters in Tides of War, the war hadn't been truly going on in Cataclysm.

I've got some work to do, but I can provide a few quotes in a bit if you'd like.
10/12/2012 11:01 AMPosted by Kellick
As of Tides of War, the war apparently only started with the Horde's destruction of Northwatch.


To me that sounds odd.. I mean even as far back as Grizzly Hills there was some pretty bad fighting. Ashenvale, Gilneas, Swamps of Sorrows & the Blasted lands, The Barrens and Stonetalon.
Thank you both.
Between Wrath and Cata, there was an uneasy truce and trade between the Night elves and the Orcs. Due to a ploy by Twilight's hammer who attacked the Night elves while disguised as Horde soldiers, Ashenvale was closed to the Horde again, which made Garrosh decide to invade Ashenvale, after which Alliance troops moved into the Barrens as retaliation. On the other side of the continent, the Forsaken were ordered to attack Gilneas. I think that the part about Twilight's hammer is in... Wolfheart, right?

Anyway, the war doesn't start officially until Northwatch and Theramore.
Apparently.
The most recently stated reason for fighting was Ashenvale in Kalimdor and everything the Forsaken did in Lordaeron. If it hadn't been for these, then things would have quieted down for a bit, and all else is pretty much a result (besides our 'warchief' going all crazy and nuking random places like Theramore). So blame Garrosh and his unwillingness to reign in Sylvanas.
I think you can really take two views of it, and both are valid.

View 1: Gul'dan started it. Or, by proxy of Gul'dan, Kil'jaeden, or whoever you want to ultimately affix blame to. In reality, the Horde and Alliance have been at war for roughly the last 30 years without a real end, the only distinction being whether it's been a cold war or a hot war at any given time, but there's never been real peace. There have been, at best, periods of skirmish by proxy in the BGs, and periods where the factions have decided to temporarily table it to prevent some apocalyptic catastrophe, but it's never really stopped. There's never been a point at which a Horde agent who attacked an Alliance agent he randomly saw on the road, or vice versa, faced any sort of consequences for doing so, in fact his faction awards him honor for it!

View 2: Garrosh started it. Really there have been three wars between the Horde and the Alliance, the first being the one that comprised the events of Warcraft 1 and Warcraft 2, started by Gul'dan, his demonic backers, and the Horde as a whole, ending with the destruction of draenor and the imprisonment of the orcs. Then there was the war during wrath of the lich king, started by the wrathgate incident for which there is blame to go around, to Sylvanas for making the plague in the first place, to Thrall for being unable to control his people, to Varian for escalating the situation to a full on invasion. That war ended at Icecrown with the whole Varian/Saurfang brohug thing where they decided to stop fighting each other and focus on the lich king. And then you have this war, which started when, in the wake of the Cataclysm, Garrosh ordered a two pronged Horde offensive, attacking the Night Elves in Ashenvale and Stonetalon, and ordering Sylvanas to move on Gilneas and the rest of northern EK. These actions were essentially unprovoked, yes the night elves had trade sanctions on them, but the Horde had also been logging in Ashenvale, which is night elf land by rights, non-stop since the third war, and Garrosh had other options, like logging in Feralas, or importing timber from Silverpine, Grizzly Hills, Terokkar, or any number of woodland areas that were not owned by the Alliance, and instead chose war to take what he wanted by force. he CHOSE it, and that makes him to blame.

For the record, view 2 is the one I personally subscribe to.
To me that sounds odd.. I mean even as far back as Grizzly Hills there was some pretty bad fighting. Ashenvale, Gilneas, Swamps of Sorrows & the Blasted lands, The Barrens and Stonetalon.

I agree it's odd. I'm just reporting the facts as they're told in the most recent sources.

Everything that's happened up until Northwatch Hold is for whatever reason written off as "tensions" in Tides of War by a number of characters (Baine, Vol'jin, Jaina, Eitrigg and Thrall, among others).
Whoooole lotta non-citing going on in here.

Anyone got links to anything they claim? Or quotes from the books?

And on Gilneas, that technically wasn't starting a war with the Alliance, right? Because they were independent?
Whoooole lotta non-citing going on in here.

Anyone got links to anything they claim? Or quotes from the books?

And on Gilneas, that technically wasn't starting a war with the Alliance, right? Because they were independent?


Really, its just something that doesn't matter anymore right now. Gilneas used to be in the Alliance, and it is again. It wasn't when the Forsaken attacked, but at this point, neither the Alliance, nor the Horde care. There were no arguments made by Sylvanas that she didn't attack the Alliance, because no one bothers with it.
Kind of depends on when you say it started.
....okay granted, Gilneas is sort of a grey area. As for citations, I'm not a wikipedia article, if I say something untrue, call me on it, but I'm not gonna spend an hour looking up page numbers in books and copy/pasting quotes from wowhead. I mean, they don't even do that in the presidential debates. Frankly a lot of what I'm saying can't be "cited" because it's either res ipsa loquitur, I mean...there was relative peace in northern Kalimdor...then there were Horde troops where there weren't Horde troops before and there was war...or it's common sense stuff like "why COULDN'T Garrosh just chop down some trees in grizzly hill and mage portal the lumber back to org?".
10/12/2012 11:35 AMPosted by Tevinter
Kind of depends on when you say it started.


Let's go with Cataclysm or very end of wrath.

I consider this current war as starting with the increased war efforts into new territories, such as Ashenvale, Barrens, etc. Yes, the Alliance and Horde have been involved in smaller battles and skirmishes since Classic, but that wasn't the vast open war fare and mobilization of armies we have now.
10/12/2012 11:41 AMPosted by Dierle
....okay granted, Gilneas is sort of a grey area. As for citations, I'm not a wikipedia article, if I say something untrue, call me on it, but I'm not gonna spend an hour looking up page numbers in books and copy/pasting quotes from wowhead. I mean, they don't even do that in the presidential debates. Frankly a lot of what I'm saying can't be "cited" because it's either res ipsa loquitur, I mean...there was relative peace in northern Kalimdor...then there were Horde troops where there weren't Horde troops before and there was war...or it's common sense stuff like "why COULDN'T Garrosh just chop down some trees in grizzly hill and mage portal the lumber back to org?".


I'm not telling you that you have to participate. But how can anyone say Garrosh started it with out providing evidence? How can we even say that the N Elves placed trade sanctions on the orcs?

Both might be true or over-used misconceptions or wrong/right in varying degrees. I was hoping this thread could have a basis in factual evidence then the usual rumors and finger pointing.

I'll go read the wikis and post any relevant finds to do my part.
Whoooole lotta non-citing going on in here.

Anyone got links to anything they claim? Or quotes from the books?

And on Gilneas, that technically wasn't starting a war with the Alliance, right? Because they were independent?

Alright, alright. Quotes coming up.

Eitrigg: "You [Garrosh] would also begin a war that would involve armies from all over this world..." p. 20

Garrosh: "This is not a time for peace! The time for war has come-it is long overdue!" p. 24

Unnamed Forsaken: "Rouse her [Jaina], and we shall have a war on our hands-a war we are not prepared to fight!" p. 18

Vol'jin: "An' we try something like dat, da Alliance be all over us like bees on da honey! You just be giving dem de excuse dey been looking for!" p. 19

Thrall, to Jaina: "You cannot place the blame for the current tensions squarely at Garrosh's feet... It does not seem to me that the Alliance is working particularly hard to find peace either."
Jaina: "I know," p. 33

There are more later. I just picked a few from the first chapters.
I think it was meant to be a state of cold war more than anything, like Battlegrounds were meant to simulate. The factions hadnt officially declared war on each other, but certain regions of the world were still in conflict.
10/12/2012 11:47 AMPosted by Anabawon
The Forsaken who betrayed Undercity.

I heard something about Jaina talking Varian into taking that declaration back.

No citations, I heard it from someone. Dont take my word for it.
I'm pretty sure the trade sanctions are somewhere in either shattering or wolfheart, the night elves, mad about Horde logging and the whole wrathgate stuff, refused to trade with them, this caused the Horde considerable hardship. Garrosh attacking Ashenvale is the entire plot of Wolfheart, I don't think I need to prove that happened.

Once again, if I'm wrong, tell me so, but don't be pedantic and require me to prove the sky is blue just for the sake of form.

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