Blizzard's stance on ninja looting

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10/17/2012 06:47 PMPosted by Jujubiju
merely not being a completely wasted stat should not be enough). Same goes for stats like spirit, if you get no value from it (mages/locks) then you shouldn't be able to need on it.


My old man almost got smacked in the head the last time he rolled on a spirit item on his mage ;).


It's not a big deal to me personally, but I know why some healers get upset; it's certainly frustrating. I never managed to get a wand in grim batol, for example. Of course, there was no heroic non-spirit wand in the tier, so maybe that was healer vengeance. The class oriented restrictions are problematic in my view, but I don't believe in ms>os for reasons I've described in this thread and others.

In principle I don't mind it, but in practice I fail to see how it can work fairly.

She/he said yes but to go on roll on it, I said no and let her win. So my intentions are good but the fact is something is wrong with the fact people can be such thieves. Not sure why it got annoying in MoP but I suppose the ninjas are out of the woodwork.

/shrug


Spirit neck isn't for healers. Granted, as a mage you get no value from spirit, but that's not true of most other dps casters. That's why I have no faith in ms>os because it basically allows some people to roll on their offspec, but denies others from doing the same, mostly due to the primary stats in use.

Conceptually, I have no problem with ms>os, but only if it's applied fairly. If it's applied in such a way that it only applies to certain spec combos, but not others, then I think that's a much less fair system than what we have now where you self select what would be an upgrade.


Explain again, sorry.
I already suggested just doing LFR-style loot, it pretty much fixes every problem if implemented correctly.

LFR gives you loot via your spec. If a tank wants to get DPS gear, they will need to queue as a DPS and once again taking more tanks out of the LFD pool.


I added above, i'd prefer if you could pick what spec drop you want, independant of your role.

(or, not quite as good, but just make it 50/50 -which isn't any different than the current system)

My point is that role specific gear is very rare.

For example, we have 2 leather tanks. There is no non-spec specific leather tanking gear in the game. Monks and druids tank with dps gear. This is less true of plate tanks, but it's more true than you think.

Healer gear is basically a fantasy which doesn't exist in the real world, and dps caster gear is limited to gear with hit on it.

The itemization is such that ms>os just doesn't work in any sort of fair way because of massive overlap.


Well, it's perfectly fair to flag something as both healer/dps. That's not inherently unfair, especially if you make it so someone like an spriest doesn't get items for both dps, and spirit users.

They've fixed this in the past a few different ways :
letting locks/mages use spirit
not letting dps priests roll on spirit (it didn't help in BC, iirc)

But LFR style would make it better imo. Then you don't have to worry about arguements (which will happen no matter how fair the system is, because people get upset if they don't win, fair or not).
It would be fairest (and toughest for Blizzard maybe) to make even 5-man loot roll like LFR. Except IF you win your personal loot, there'll be a choice of items and you can pick one for the spec you're in or the one you want to be in.


Conceptually, that's easy.

Tricky part: does only wanting gear for 1 spec reduce your loot opportunities relative to wanting gear for all 3 specs. If so, does blizzard have the technology to be that dynamic in loot chance changes.

Personal loot where I can pick the spec or specs I want loot for would be my option if they had to change something, although I think the current system is fine too. You can avoid the above mentioned problem by only permitting one choice of spec to get loot for.

Well, it's perfectly fair to flag something as both healer/dps. That's not inherently unfair, especially if you make it so someone like an spriest doesn't get items for both dps, and spirit users.


It's unfair for an elemental/resto shaman to be able to roll on offspec, but an enhance/resto shaman not be able to. This gear sharing is intentional, they aren't going to undo it -- they are trying to avoid wasted gear.

Maybe some day caster dps won't use spirit for hit, but even then you still have the problem of leather tank gear not actually existing in the game, dk's using 2h dps weapons to tank, plate tanks tending to use more dpsish gear in modern times, and similar issues.

It makes the whole ms>os thing seem a little silly unless you're going to go full on personal loot. If they go full on personal loot, then the ms>os thing is irrelevant.
Just add the damn LFR system for rolls. That's an actual solution, rather than more crap.
It would be fairest (and toughest for Blizzard maybe) to make even 5-man loot roll like LFR. Except IF you win your personal loot, there'll be a choice of items and you can pick one for the spec you're in or the one you want to be in.


Conceptually, that's easy.

Tricky part: does only wanting gear for 1 spec reduce your loot opportunities relative to wanting gear for all 3 specs. If so, does blizzard have the technology to be that dynamic in loot chance changes.

Personal loot where I can pick the spec or specs I want loot for would be my option if they had to change something, although I think the current system is fine too. You can avoid the above mentioned problem by only permitting one choice of spec to get loot for.


I don't think many people can complain if it takes twice as long to gear 2 specs. There really isn't another fair way to do it, except with a breakdown like

100% tank loot (or 90% tank/10%, dps, whatever)
100% dps loot
50/50% tank/dps

(but all getting the same drops).

If everyone uses the LFD system now, you won't really get to gear both specs just as fast. You'll lose rolls, etc.

Or you could just copy/paste loot drops exactly from currently (reduced slightly, so people don't gear faster).ie, basically enforcing 50/50% no matter what. which is the same as now, you don't always get a dps drop, or a tank drop.
10/17/2012 06:55 PMPosted by Gulvak
Just add the damn LFR system for rolls. That's an actual solution, rather than more crap.


Umm.....I'm not so sure of that. I think gear would become much more...less.
10/17/2012 06:01 PMPosted by Zaxan
Telling players who joined an LFD group that I am going to use the LFD loot system and not their personal loot rules makes me feel like I have to then justify why I am going to use the LFD loot system while I am in an LFD group, when there should be no justification needed - I want to use the LFD loot system, therefore I joined an LFD group that uses the LFD loot system...


I think you just made my brain explode.
It would be fairest (and toughest for Blizzard maybe) to make even 5-man loot roll like LFR. Except IF you win your personal loot, there'll be a choice of items and you can pick one for the spec you're in or the one you want to be in.


Conceptually, that's easy.

Tricky part: does only wanting gear for 1 spec reduce your loot opportunities relative to wanting gear for all 3 specs. If so, does blizzard have the technology to be that dynamic in loot chance changes.

Personal loot where I can pick the spec or specs I want loot for would be my option if they had to change something, although I think the current system is fine too. You can avoid the above mentioned problem by only permitting one choice of spec to get loot for.


You answered mine before I could fix it.

I changed my suggestion to a LFR loot style with a token/chit/ticket if you win - to take to a NPC at the entrance for the gear choices, like the new quest reward windows.

BoE drops can be rolled Greed or DE only (who needs those?!).

Maybe an announcement "Vixie got new bracers!" and the PuGs can say grats or just leave like they do if they don't win anything, being the rushed rude people they are. =P:

I don't think many people can complain if it takes twice as long to gear 2 specs. There really isn't another fair way to do it, except with a breakdown like


It's the opposite problem: people who choose 1 spec should have a lower chance because in the current system your willingness to accept a wider variety of gear means you will get a character upgrade more frequently than those who are picky about gear and will only accept, for example, int/spi gear.

If they normalize against drop rates that exist of today, you'd want those who want 1 spec of gear to have the lowest chances of gear, and those that want 3 of having the highest chance of gear (assuming that there's no overlap for mere explanation purposes).

Again, like I said the solution could be to only allow them to pick one spec, and I'm fine with that too. Gear's just not a huge deal to me, I eventually get what I need.
10/17/2012 06:54 PMPosted by Mescyn
It makes the whole ms>os thing seem a little silly unless you're going to go full on personal loot. If they go full on personal loot, then the ms>os thing is irrelevant.


Yeah.

For me, right now, LFR style is pretty much the only perfect system. Even MS>OS feels outdated, it's just the best we had at the time (because it wasn't possible to do personal loot back then).

Personal loot is basically what MS> OS is trying to do, but without the proper tools.

It's just the closest thing the community could do, without being able to change the game.
I firmly agree with Blizzard's stance on this. And yes, last week I lost a shield to a ret pally. But that ret pally also helped kill the boss, and he had just as much right to it as I did. And I don't know him, he may be holy for raiding and just doesn't like healing 5-mans. I personally don't like healing 5-mans either, I much prefer tanking (which I can't do on this toon). I don't like DPS in 5-mans or raids.

So basically...big deal, I lost a roll. I'll win it or an equivalent item eventually.

I changed my suggestion to a LFR loot style with a token/chit/ticket if you win - to take to a NPC at the entrance for the gear choices, like the new quest reward windows.


rng will always be a factor in wow, I feel. If they 'fixed' lfd, then it seems more likely you pick a spec, and it's personal loot and if you win an item, it's something for that spec. In other words, the same as LFR except you can select what spec you are getting gear for.

With the limited loot tables in 5m bosses, possibly this is not all that different than your suggestion, though.
10/17/2012 06:58 PMPosted by Valeus
Just add the damn LFR system for rolls. That's an actual solution, rather than more crap.


Umm.....I'm not so sure of that. I think gear would become much more...less.

I even just talked about crap, what are you even trying to say here?

I changed my suggestion to a LFR loot style with a token/chit/ticket if you win - to take to a NPC at the entrance for the gear choices, like the new quest reward windows.


rng will always be a factor in wow, I feel. If they 'fixed' lfd, then it seems more likely you pick a spec, and it's personal loot and if you win an item, it's something for that spec. In other words, the same as LFR except you can select what spec you are getting gear for.

With the limited loot tables in 5m bosses, possibly this is not all that different than your suggestion, though.


My loot-pinata weekend notwithstanding, getting gear from dungeons should be severely RNG as it's always been. It's usually the case when you go in and end up with just winning some BoE green that gets sent to an alt. But if you do win, it should be something you can use somehow. Then it would be worth running more dungeons.

For me, right now, LFR style is pretty much the only perfect system. Even MS>OS feels outdated, it's just the best we had at the time (because it wasn't possible to do personal loot back then).

Personal loot is basically what MS> OS is trying to do, but without the proper tools.

It's just the closest thing the community could do, without being able to change the game.


If we still had +spelldmg and +healing and leather tanking gear and the works, I'd totally be in favor of ms>os.

That's my only real problem with ms>os. However, I absolutely don't want to roll back the game to classic when a lot of the loot table was unusable. That'd make 10m pretty horrible, and 25m not a lot better.
10/17/2012 07:00 PMPosted by Arianity
It makes the whole ms>os thing seem a little silly unless you're going to go full on personal loot. If they go full on personal loot, then the ms>os thing is irrelevant.


Yeah.

For me, right now, LFR style is pretty much the only perfect system. Even MS>OS feels outdated, it's just the best we had at the time (because it wasn't possible to do personal loot back then).

Personal loot is basically what MS> OS is trying to do, but without the proper tools.

It's just the closest thing the community could do, without being able to change the game.


I still think MS>OS spec is the way the go(This excludes asking and being courteous)

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