Farewell WoW, MoP = RIP

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"I don't have enough to do."

"I have enough to do, but now I don't wanna do it."


Or maybe:

"Wow, I really enjoyed Tolstoy's The Death of Ivan Ilyich, but it's so short. I wish I could get some of his longer-"

"Here, read this phonebook!"

"That sounds incredibly boring."

"Looks like someone doesn't like to work for their fun."


Did it ever occur to you that it might not be possible to pump out engaging content like that at a pace that would keep the playerbase entertained with "new and fun things to do"? In general, I'd assume us players are going to be able to go through content much faster than it takes them to develop, implement, test, and release it. Especially when you consider that not all players do all the types of content they release. I still haven't touched Scenarios, for example, and I don't usually PvP.

Everything boils down to repetitive busywork, because repetition is the only way to stay ahead, or at least even. Now, if you have suggestions to break the mold or suggestions about "fun" repetitive busywork, go ahead and post them.
The slowing of the game and removal of items such as HGWT, fast run speed when dead, the plethora of dailies, vermin and weeds when farming, junk when fishing, is all a ploy to extend content without having to release new content. It is completely contradictory to every move they've made in the past 3 expansions.


I find it odd that you think this when A) Pandaria has had at least as many things to do as the previous 3 expansions and B) I believe Patch 5.1 - with more content! - is going to come out faster than any other supplemental content patch in the game's history.
Finally ready to call it quits, realized today after almost 8 years of playing that I just didn't enjoy the game anymore.

MoP ruined this game for people like me, I have a family, and I cannot and WILL not be forced into doing dailies across all my toons or hell even ONE toon in order to progressively gear my characters.

The new loot system for LFR, Sha, etc is completely unbearable, constantly seeing 28g pop up across all my toons gives me ZERO incentive to continue grinding out the casual content I am used to.

And its not like I havent given it time, I leveled nine classes to 90, and going through the same content over and over wasn't so bad, its the point where you get to 90 and you are pigeon holed into grinding dailies over and over or PVP'ing (which I do NOT enjoy). So I canceled today, which is saying alot because I play alot and used to enjoy this game massively.

Some will flame me, blizz will probably close the post, but truth be told, if they don't address these things soon there will be many following suit.

There is definitely legitimacy to your post, and we've been reading a lot of the feedback players have been sharing lately as we evaluate our endgame progression systems. Even as World of Warcraft evolves over each expansion, and as happy as we are with the experience we crafted for Mists of Pandaria, we always know we can do better.

Having said all of that, I'm just not personally sure we can design a game that's going to feel fresh and rife with content every time you login, if the expectation is that the average World of Warcraft player will have nine level-90 characters less than two months after the expansion's release. I really don't mean this as a judgment of how you choose to spend your time, either. But when considering everything you said in your post -- you mention needing time for family and enjoying casual content -- your noted (or implied) play time really sticks out.

Another sticking point is you brought up being forced to either do dailies or PvP. Why? Looking only at progression of character power at 90, do you not want to do scenarios, dungeons, or raids? What pushes you into reputation progression such that you feel you have to do it x9 and burn out on the game?


Beautiful
11/14/2012 08:31 AMPosted by Hyjinx
The slowing of the game and removal of items such as HGWT, fast run speed when dead, the plethora of dailies, vermin and weeds when farming, junk when fishing, is all a ploy to extend content without having to release new content. It is completely contradictory to every move they've made in the past 3 expansions.


I find it odd that you think this when A) Pandaria has had at least as many things to do as the previous 3 expansions and B) I believe Patch 5.1 - with more content! - is going to come out faster than any other supplemental content patch in the game's history.


Which is way is futile to keep insisting in this huge grind.

The failure of Cataclysm is not because people got their rep up fast. Now, MoP has A LOT of content available, so its counterproductive to force people into only one of them, specially if you are going to get more content fast.

Giving us an alternative wont hurt anyone.
Here are some ideas regarding rep that some people mentioned over on wowinsider (not sure if they were mentioned here, so just posting them).

--Zahrym already mentiond championing--one dungeon a day gives rep, etc. --maybe include scenarios in this as well.
--Items like the Darkmoon drops off of bosses in dungeons and raids (treatise of strategy, etc.). Some could be specific, like the final boss in Shado Pan monastery has an item that increases Shado-pan rep--only drops one, so 5 people have to roll on it.
--More options in scenario lootbag (I love scenarios and would love seeing more with them)--have them drop JP, or the items above, etc.
--Maybe a pvp option--PVP'ers probably still want the enchants, etc. behind reps--commendations purchaseable with Honor/conquest--maybe have a cap on purchases?

All or none of these options would be fine (my main will be exalted soon enough, and in 5.1 all my alts will go twice as fast). I believe Blizz wants you doing different things (rather than all dungeons all the time), and I'm happy with that. I just thought I'd through these suggestions out there. I don't pvp, but I like that the next legendary quest may be asking me to. It's good to have a reason to try new things.
MMOs often have the model where you do things you don't like in order to do things you do like. Raiding comes to mind. Hell, a lot of people don't even like leveling.

Going to point out that you didn't offer feedback either, and also that "fun" is subjective.. I don't think it's possible for them to please everybody.


I don't care about your opinion of other MMOs, I care about THIS MMO. And if you can't grasp the simple concept that games should be fun, or at least have the reward for content that isn't fun, you shouldn't really reply to threads that are debating as such. My debate is with Blizzard not with people who are having fun!!

As it remains, if you are having fun, I don't see what point you are adding to this thread. I have given numerous suggestions throughout this thread but to recap for the lazy trolls in the group:

The items that Blizzard put into the game such as LFG, and LFD, have been designed to open up content for players, which is consumed at a much greater pace than it was before. Heirlooms, xp bonuses, reduced xp while leveling, all lead to quicker consumed content.

The slowing of the game and removal of items such as HGWT, fast run speed when dead, the plethora of dailies, vermin and weeds when farming, junk when fishing, is all a ploy to extend content without having to release new content. It is completely contradictory to every move they've made in the past 3 expansions.

Putting in a tabard with daily caps just gives an option.
Have reputation shared on account at a much greater rep.
Also, getting rid of profession items would be goodl.
Add in items that are gated, that would be used for xmog, like old tiered gear. People who want that xmog will go through the process of the dailies.

Remember this was supposed to be a 'play as you want' xpac, but it is very alt unfriendly due to gated content.


I think they should make all or MOST of the BoPs once you acquire change to bind on your account so you could atleast send the gear to an alt.

And why in the world did they not just go ahead and make the gear that the HH man dropped bind on account like the gear you dig up in Arch???? I mean the Horrific Head piece is WONDERFUL but it seemed like it only dropped for my hunters even though I ran my warriors through same amount of times. Only my hunters ever saw the thing drop.
11/14/2012 08:36 AMPosted by Saanen


I find it odd that you think this when A) Pandaria has had at least as many things to do as the previous 3 expansions and B) I believe Patch 5.1 - with more content! - is going to come out faster than any other supplemental content patch in the game's history.


Which is way is futile to keep insisting in this huge grind.

The failure of Cataclysm is not because people got their rep up fast. Now, MoP has A LOT of content available, so its counterproductive to force people into only one of them, specially if you are going to get more content fast.

Giving us an alternative wont hurt anyone.


Long as the grind doesn't become completely irrelevant with future releases (a major problem in Cataclysm, imo), I don't see the problem.

I also have no problem with tabards, if that's what you mean by "an alternative," as long as the rep is capped daily. If it isn't, then it becomes the mandatory path for most 'cause it's faster.
But people like you who say 'nothing is wrong' are part of the problem. At some point in your life you will be in a real relationship. When that person has a 'feeling' on something, it is valid. Even if you don't agree with it, it is valid.


Hold it. Did you actually go from talking about the game to taking made up potshots at my life? There goes any credibility you had, which is a pity since your posts had some things worth discussing.
I don't care about your opinion of other MMOs, I care about THIS MMO. And if you can't grasp the simple concept that games should be fun, or at least have the reward for content that isn't fun, you shouldn't really reply to threads that are debating as such. My debate is with Blizzard not with people who are having fun!!

As it remains, if you are having fun, I don't see what point you are adding to this thread. I have given numerous suggestions throughout this thread but to recap for the lazy trolls in the group:

The items that Blizzard put into the game such as LFG, and LFD, have been designed to open up content for players, which is consumed at a much greater pace than it was before. Heirlooms, xp bonuses, reduced xp while leveling, all lead to quicker consumed content.

The slowing of the game and removal of items such as HGWT, fast run speed when dead, the plethora of dailies, vermin and weeds when farming, junk when fishing, is all a ploy to extend content without having to release new content. It is completely contradictory to every move they've made in the past 3 expansions.

Putting in a tabard with daily caps just gives an option.
Have reputation shared on account at a much greater rep.
Also, getting rid of profession items would be goodl.
Add in items that are gated, that would be used for xmog, like old tiered gear. People who want that xmog will go through the process of the dailies.

Remember this was supposed to be a 'play as you want' xpac, but it is very alt unfriendly due to gated content.


The ultimate counterpoint to your comments, and why people who disagree are posting, is that this gated content you and others complain about is completely not required. If you don't like dailies, do not do them. Period. End of story. Please move on and have fun, which is of course your stated desire and goal.

I and others will contest claims that certain things are a problem when we do not see them in the same light. While I can't say why others do it, I can tell you that I do because I'd prefer to see what I consider fun not be put at risk based on what I consider inaccurate assumptions on how to play the game. Blizzard has done a good job of explaining and defending the changes they have made with this expansion but folks still argue against it without adapting to this information (Blizzard has plainly stated the valor gear available from rep vendors is not a requirement, there is concrete evidence to support this should people choose to believe the people who have been designing this game for YEARS are somehow completely wrong, but people still come here and argue that the gear is required. In short, its time for people who have a legitimate issue to accept this and adjust their complaints).

Also, this is a web forum. That means open discussion. Which means people will post things counter to your opinion.

You are welcome to presume Blizzard is the king of MMO conspiracy and making all sorts of changes to the game to drag out the time you play, but the fact of the matter is MMOs exist by coming up with ways to drag out your play time. This is not new. In fact, I'd argue things like heirlooms and XP bonuses clearly demonstrate that Blizzard is not in the business of just arbitrarily placing time barriers in our collective faces.

You also list minutia like weeds on the farm. Seriously? But in all fairness, if this bothers you so much, don't do the farm. What do you need from the farm so badly that you must endure this if you don't like it? Shockingly this rolls into the same thing as the classic dailies complaint.

At the end of the day, Blizzard has provided plenty of end game options and routes to progress should you eschew some of these options.

What it boils down to is either:
1) You don't like any of the options available at endgame (maybe its time to take a break from wow?)

or

2) You have not accepted/comprehended that you do not require any of the goods/gear sold by rep vendors OR are incapable of NOT doing something if the option is available (maybe its time to take a break and do some self assessment?)

or

3) You want something for nothing from the games you play (maybe its time to play a game that works like this and decide if that's actually a rewarding experience?)
Did it ever occur to you that it might not be possible to pump out engaging content like that at a pace that would keep the playerbase entertained with "new and fun things to do"? In general, I'd assume us players are going to be able to go through content much faster than it takes them to develop, implement, test, and release it. Especially when you consider that not all players do all the types of content they release. I still haven't touched Scenarios, for example, and I don't usually PvP.

Everything boils down to repetitive busywork, because repetition is the only way to stay ahead, or at least even. Now, if you have suggestions to break the mold or suggestions about "fun" repetitive busywork, go ahead and post them.


I was never one of the ones complaining about not having enough to do (I liked having a few alts and keeping them roughly equal, but Blizzard has decided that this was Doin' It Wrong and has decided we're all going back to the One Main model, whatever). I'm also definitely a casual and thus am fine with WoW not being able to supply 100% of my entertainment time.

But dailies were clearly designed to address the concerns of people who felt there wasn't enough to do, and Blizzard appears to believe that the glut of dailies is a good response to this. This is where I'm baffled, because what they've done is bulked up and slowed down the portion of the game that is most repetitive and least encouraging (in some cases, actively discouraging) of group play. We get lore events every once in a while, generally at new rep levels, but it's mostly shovelwork.

And here's something else that gets me - the other big new 'PvE filler' feature, scenarios, are incredibly easy to access, involve scripted storylines, and involve group play. Out of the MMORP acronym, scenarios generally beat dailies on the Multiplayer Online, the Role Play, and maybe on the Massive. And yet they are drastically less rewarding: less VP over time, no Lesser Charms, no reputation, less gear (since it's rare, very randomly rolled, and always 463), and no flavour items like mounts or tabards.

So what I'm left wondering is how it is that when they decided to fill out the filler content at endgame, they built the entire Scenario infrastructure and then shoved them to one side in favour of a few dozen more Kill 12 Random Bugs That You Will Have To Compete With Other Players To Punch First.
Did it ever occur to you that it might not be possible to pump out engaging content like that at a pace that would keep the playerbase entertained with "new and fun things to do"? In general, I'd assume us players are going to be able to go through content much faster than it takes them to develop, implement, test, and release it. Especially when you consider that not all players do all the types of content they release. I still haven't touched Scenarios, for example, and I don't usually PvP.

Everything boils down to repetitive busywork, because repetition is the only way to stay ahead, or at least even. Now, if you have suggestions to break the mold or suggestions about "fun" repetitive busywork, go ahead and post them.


*sigh* well, I guess i'll give my own answer. Not everyone is ever going to agree on what constitutes fun versus what is just repetitive. You're correct that repetition is a mainstay on content consumption. I do, however, observe that this has changed over time, and will explain how:

It may be true that Blizzard cannot crank out content fast enough to keep pace with consumption. Yet in the past, it was understood that the primary counter to content starvation was to lvl and gear an alt in content that was easily accessible. This was very much the case in TBC, and even more so the case in Wrath of the Lich King.

What's more, the system allowed for this, it provided a suitable climate for alt development. Separate Raid Lockouts meant that several people were running several raids several times a day, the market for raid spots was extreme fertile, and thus was accommodating to people who wanted to bring their alt to a raid, and to continue to consume content that was easily accessible.

Some people of course didn't like this, for any number of reasons. However, I believe the game was at its best - though far from perfect - during this phase of its life. Furthermore, if the consistent numbers are any indication, then most people who played WoW during the TBC-Wotlk period of time agreed with this assessment on one level or another.

For myself, I remember when people grew tired of hyper focusing on their mains, they shifted to an alt. This was the tradition of WoW going all the way back to Classic. Yet somewhere during Cataclysm, and now in MoP it became less conducive an environment for alt development - the natural built-in safety valve to alleviate player fatigue. I say a considerable - though not exclusive - cause for this was the implementation of shared raid lockouts. I know that given what i witnessed with my own eyes, from my own perspective, that is when this game really began to turn ugly and inward on itself. Others are welcome to disagree or expand on this thought.

TL;DR: In concluding, when you constrict the player's experience, they will get bored and look elsewhere for entertainment. When you permit the player's experience to be wide-open and accessible and dare i say, casual, you'll bring in a much wider audience as was the case in Wrath. The more people you have in the system, the more vibrant the system will be, the more efficiently it will run itself. Communities can develop at a great capacity and provide players with a more compelling reason to log on everyday other than to grind dailies and perform other ill-conceived and laborious efforts to develop their character.

But character progression isn't blocked entirely "behind endless dailies." You can get into Raid Finder without any reputation rewards. Sure, it's clearly more effective to be earning some steady reputation with the core factions (which is the point) while running other content, but that's less relevant when an argument is made in absolute statements, such as "forced," "mandatory," and "locked away."

I'm not naive and I know that if you invest more time into your character by doing dailies along side your group content, your rate of progression will be faster. And again, that's by design. But certainly we enjoy hearing feedback about the design and how things could be tweaked to improve the model.


There's one problem that I do not see mentioned or is being unrecognized and it comes with the newly adopted accountwide settings and players being incentivized to play alts. Many players do not have a problem with doing some dailies, particularly during those first few weeks as we worked to get gear for raids.

However, now, players are starting to roll on their alts, after all this expansion finally merged things into account settings. So players after a few weeks are starting to work their way up through Pandaria a 2nd time around, and then it happens, they reach 89-90 and they realize 'oh crap, i have to reach revered AGAIN!?' This is a major problem in design. You merge things into account-wide, player-made progress, yet reputations are not. So now we have to REDO reputation (which most players didnt do in the past or did much later because accounts werent merged) AND we have to grind JP AND we have grind VP.

The bonus would not help much as youd still have to earn rep, then jp (to supplement), THEN VP again. Its days/weeks of redundant work we have already unlocked. Not to mention recipes are locked at the farend of the rep grind AND tabards are not account wide.

You completely devalue account-wide progression by placing this hurtle on players. I had 10 85s waiting for Pandaria, then I went Monk so I had 10 85s and a 90. The moment I found out I had to redo all this again--which by the way, I loved story progression and unraveling it through dailies--I stopped half way through Klaxxi and Vale dailies and focused back on my Paladin, previously my main. Once again I have no wishes on playing another class. Youve sucked the live outta accountwide progression.

Just my 2 cents from a 7 yr vet.
I don't care about your opinion of other MMOs, I care about THIS MMO. And if you can't grasp the simple concept that games should be fun, or at least have the reward for content that isn't fun, you shouldn't really reply to threads that are debating as such. My debate is with Blizzard not with people who are having fun!!

As it remains, if you are having fun, I don't see what point you are adding to this thread. I have given numerous suggestions throughout this thread but to recap for the lazy trolls in the group:

The items that Blizzard put into the game such as LFG, and LFD, have been designed to open up content for players, which is consumed at a much greater pace than it was before. Heirlooms, xp bonuses, reduced xp while leveling, all lead to quicker consumed content.

The slowing of the game and removal of items such as HGWT, fast run speed when dead, the plethora of dailies, vermin and weeds when farming, junk when fishing, is all a ploy to extend content without having to release new content. It is completely contradictory to every move they've made in the past 3 expansions.

Putting in a tabard with daily caps just gives an option.
Have reputation shared on account at a much greater rep.
Also, getting rid of profession items would be goodl.
Add in items that are gated, that would be used for xmog, like old tiered gear. People who want that xmog will go through the process of the dailies.

Remember this was supposed to be a 'play as you want' xpac, but it is very alt unfriendly due to gated content.


The ultimate counterpoint to your comments, and why people who disagree are posting, is that this gated content you and others complain about is completely not required. If you don't like dailies, do not do them. Period. End of story. Please move on and have fun, which is of course your stated desire and goal.

I and others will contest claims that certain things are a problem when we do not see them in the same light. While I can't say why others do it, I can tell you that I do because I'd prefer to see what I consider fun not be put at risk based on what I consider inaccurate assumptions on how to play the game. Blizzard has done a good job of explaining and defending the changes they have made with this expansion but folks still argue against it without adapting to this information (Blizzard has plainly stated the valor gear available from rep vendors is not a requirement, there is concrete evidence to support this should people choose to believe the people who have been designing this game for YEARS are somehow completely wrong, but people still come here and argue that the gear is required. In short, its time for people who have a legitimate issue to accept this and adjust their complaints).

Also, this is a web forum. That means open discussion. Which means people will post things counter to your opinion.

You are welcome to presume Blizzard is the king of MMO conspiracy and making all sorts of changes to the game to drag out the time you play, but the fact of the matter is MMOs exist by coming up with ways to drag out your play time. This is not new. In fact, I'd argue things like heirlooms and XP bonuses clearly demonstrate that Blizzard is not in the business of just arbitrarily placing time barriers in our collective faces.

You also list minutia like weeds on the farm. Seriously? But in all fairness, if this bothers you so much, don't do the farm. What do you need from the farm so badly that you must endure this if you don't like it? Shockingly this rolls into the same thing as the classic dailies complaint.

At the end of the day, Blizzard has provided plenty of end game options and routes to progress should you eschew some of these options.

What it boils down to is either:
1) You don't like any of the options available at endgame (maybe its time to take a break from wow?)

or

2) You have not accepted/comprehended that you do not require any of the goods/gear sold by rep vendors OR are incapable of NOT doing something if the option is available (maybe its time to take a break and do some self assessment?)

or

3) You want something for nothing from the games you play (maybe its time to play a game that works like this and decide if that's actually a rewarding experience?)


What you seem to be missing or flat out ignoring is that the gated items...needed or not are currently and since launch the only way to spend valor.

So since i did not want to do dailies, since as you say its a choice, i was unable to spend the valor blizz gives me for doing dungeons. Is it REALLY a choice if i can't spend my high end reward points?
11/14/2012 08:42 AMPosted by Hyjinx
Long as the grind doesn't become completely irrelevant with future releases (a major problem in Cataclysm, imo), I don't see the problem.


Have to agree with this. They need to keep older rep grinds useful in some way. I began Molten dailies late and realized it was pointless since I could get better gear from valor and lfr. Same with Argent dawn back in the days. The day Wrath hit it was all for nothing.

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