Farewell WoW, MoP = RIP

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What you seem to be missing or flat out ignoring is that the gated items...needed or not are currently and since launch the only way to spend valor.

So since i did not want to do dailies, since as you say its a choice, i was unable to spend the valor blizz gives me for doing dungeons. Is it REALLY a choice if i can't spend my high end reward points?


Ignoring in the case of the person I replied to, since I didn't see that as a complaint in his/her post.

But yes, you are right. I think that's the one annoying hole in this - no way to spend valor unless you do dailies. IMO, the fix for this is a valor vendor that sells mats and whatnot. I know that 5.1 will give people the ability to spend valor to upgrade gear, but perhaps that should have been in the game when it was launched.

I really hope Blizzard does not downgrade valor to justice when 5.1 hits. Also, I think it would be nice if they could hotfix in something that lets you hold on to more than 4k valor until 5.1 hits.

Long as the grind doesn't become completely irrelevant with future releases (a major problem in Cataclysm, imo), I don't see the problem.

I also have no problem with tabards, if that's what you mean by "an alternative," as long as the rep is capped daily. If it isn't, then it becomes the mandatory path for most 'cause it's faster.


Tabards, drops from the last boss of dungeons, something other that these freaking dailies, and yes i have no problem with being daily capped with the cap shared with dailies.
11/14/2012 08:46 AMPosted by Sanctinius
It may be true that Blizzard cannot crank out content fast enough to keep pace with consumption. Yet in the past, it was understood that the primary counter to content starvation was to lvl and gear an alt in content that was easily accessible. This was very much the case in TBC, and even more so the case in Wrath of the Lich King.


That was the case in Cataclysm more than any other expansion. And it's still easier to get alts leveled and geared than it was in either BC or Wrath.

Gearing and leveling an alt doesn't help with content starvation for me.. all it did was burn me out on Cataclysm faster. In Cataclysm I had multiple 85s at nearly the same item level as this main character at a few points, and I had a bunch of 85s capable of running LFR and normal DS every week. I eventually had to quit playing alts entirely or I would have burned myself right out of the game from running Dragon Soul endlessly.

TL;DR: In concluding, when you constrict the player's experience, they will get bored and look elsewhere for entertainment. When you permit the player's experience to be wide-open and accessible and dare i say, casual, you'll bring in a much wider audience as was the case in Wrath. The more people you have in the system, the more vibrant the system will be, the more efficiently it will run itself. Communities can develop at a great capacity and provide players with a more compelling reason to log on everyday other than to grind dailies and perform other ill-conceived and laborious efforts to develop their character.


Ironically enough, LFD and LFR - which are the 2 major tools they've used to make content "accessible" - have led to less "community."

I'm playing more now than I was throughout most of Cataclysm, because Cataclysm boiled down to "raid and log out," especially in 4.3.
But you can level up alts, do their professions, gear them through heroics - and now LFR with 12 bosses and 16 next week. I feel like that's tons to do on an alt, even in the absence of spending valor.

What else would you do on that alt you aren't? Raid normal mode and heroic raids?



Ok, but 1000/80 = 12.5. So it's about the same as in Cata, no?


ok u got confused with the Math there

25 - 30mins per run * 12-13 runs = 1000VPs = 5 - 6 hrs of playing (Cata) - 80 VPs per run
25 - 30mins per run * 25 runs = 1000VPs = 10.5 - 12.5 hrs of playing (MOP) - 40VPs per run

So the players have to play harder (play double time) to get the gears that they wanted :)


Um, my math is 80 VP per run, daily = 560 VP per week, with a deficit of 440 VP which is 11 more runs. That's 18 runs, for a total of 30 min each which is 9 hours.

Now, personally I don't really need to do more than one per day. And, once I get bracers today, I no longer have a need for VP. So I've capped VP for 6 weeks + 250 and have no further need for it.
MORE CONTENT LESS GRIND!!!!!!!!!!!

Ive already mentioned alot of good ideas so I wont repeat!

How about guild only dungeons or raids? Make it where you can not enter unless its guild group! This will encourage guilds actually working together!

There are a thousand ways to go with new content that could be fun if youd swallow your corporate pride,admit you screwed up and do away with boring grinding
/WAVE !
What you seem to be missing or flat out ignoring is that the gated items...needed or not are currently and since launch the only way to spend valor.

So since i did not want to do dailies, since as you say its a choice, i was unable to spend the valor blizz gives me for doing dungeons. Is it REALLY a choice if i can't spend my high end reward points?


Ignoring in the case of the person I replied to, since I didn't see that as a complaint in his/her post.

But yes, you are right. I think that's the one annoying hole in this - no way to spend valor unless you do dailies. IMO, the fix for this is a valor vendor that sells mats and whatnot. I know that 5.1 will give people the ability to spend valor to upgrade gear, but perhaps that should have been in the game when it was launched.

I really hope Blizzard does not downgrade valor to justice when 5.1 hits. Also, I think it would be nice if they could hotfix in something that lets you hold on to more than 4k valor until 5.1 hits.


The real solution for valor gear is that valor gear should be gated in only one way, valor points, and not being double gated.

Double gating things is a bad design. Rep gear should be purchasable with only rep needed.
Valor gear should require only valor points.
Ironically enough, LFD and LFR - which are the 2 major tools they've used to make content "accessible" - have led to less "community."

I'm playing more now than I was throughout most of Cataclysm, because Cataclysm boiled down to "raid and log out," especially in 4.3.


Indeed, this is my point. It is not merely enough to make content accessible, communities have to me fostered. That is the hinge, here. All efforts of Blizzard should be targeted towards this cultivation. LFR/LFD have done nothing to foster community, dailies have done nothing to foster community, CRZ have done nothing to foster community outside of people saying they want them taken out, and those arguing that they at least have the illusion of community now.

I did not cite cataclysm as an example because it was a beast with two heads. the 1st half of cata vs the 2nd half of cata were two different animals.

The point still stands, community, and a sense of it, has been on a downward trend since the end of Wrath and continued well into now. The methods employed by blizzard to remedy this have thus far, not produced results. I'm of the opinion Blizzard should redirect its focus and energies on community building, the life blood of WoW.
Its all a numbers game, it comes down to numbers. Ilvl, Vp, JP, Honor, Conquest, weekly caps, Rep grinds, etc. Blizz is ahead in the numbers game all across all of the boards.

/Cheers
To be honest, it was rough when I just started dailies. Mobs HP were high and being a shaman, I died countless times when I was in Skyrange as the mobs were either packed, or respawned at the last moment.

But as my ilevel went up, I have less trouble with those mobs (through experience on spawn timings and entry point).

Then came Golden Lotus and it is absolutely time-consuming for me. I used to cringe whenever I remembered that I gotta go through at least 3 hubs to finish off the dailies. The part that I hate most was the Ruins of Guo-Lai. Just doesn't like those spiders and runes or statues. Runes and statues are mostly taken and you just gotta keep flying around for respawns.

I think most Golden Lotus dailies as they are too long-winded and seriously needs to tone down. Gaining 100 rep per pop isn't satisfying, it's tormenting.

But that's my opinion
11/14/2012 08:42 AMPosted by Hyjinx
Long as the grind doesn't become completely irrelevant with future releases (a major problem in Cataclysm, imo), I don't see the problem.


Note that this is exactly what they have indicated is going to happen, and in fact listed as another point that reputations are optional. Current reputation gear, including the crafted stuff (other than BoE enhancements like leg patches) will be replaced fully by LFR gear in the next tier. There will also be new reps like Dominance and Shieldwall to build up. Reputation is not a long-term investment in the MoP model.
It's difficult to tackle the "fun" factor compared to previous daily hubs. That's very subjective and I, in fact, disagree with you on a personal level. :o


Let's be honest here. It is your job to like and promote World of Warcraft. Well, maybe the promotion part takes precedence over liking it while you're on the clock. But, the point is still valid.

I've been playing WoW for nearly 8 years and I've been active on the forums nearly that entire time and have kept up with Blue posts that entire time as well (even when I've been on a break from the game). I cannot recall a single time where a blue poster has said "I do not like this mechanic on a personal level." Pretty much every single time something is hated by the community, the canned blue response is "fun is subjective and it's fun to me."

So, in essence your livelihood depends on "liking" the current system, regardless of what that system is. At least, that's the impression I've got from Blue posters over the years. No matter how good or bad a current game mechanic is, Blues always like it, when speaking publicly.
I am not even to 90, and I just really don't care to finish MoP. If I wanted to play Farmville, I would play Farmville! These Quests are dull. I am going back to WotLK. My husband cancelled his account. My son will be following suit for Mechwarrior online. So long WoW.
11/14/2012 09:12 AMPosted by Tanjiang
Reputation is not a long-term investment in the MoP model.


Which means even more grinding, because there will be new rep to grind and the old one you've worked so hard to get will be worthless.

Great thinking Blizzard, keep it up!

Not.
There's one problem that I do not see mentioned or is being unrecognized and it comes with the newly adopted accountwide settings and players being incentivized to play alts. Many players do not have a problem with doing some dailies, particularly during those first few weeks as we worked to get gear for raids.

However, now, players are starting to roll on their alts, after all this expansion finally merged things into account settings. So players after a few weeks are starting to work their way up through Pandaria a 2nd time around, and then it happens, they reach 89-90 and they realize 'oh crap, i have to reach revered AGAIN!?' This is a major problem in design. You merge things into account-wide, player-made progress, yet reputations are not. So now we have to REDO reputation (which most players didnt do in the past or did much later because accounts werent merged) AND we have to grind JP AND we have grind VP.

The bonus would not help much as youd still have to earn rep, then jp (to supplement), THEN VP again. Its days/weeks of redundant work we have already unlocked. Not to mention recipes are locked at the farend of the rep grind AND tabards are not account wide.

You completely devalue account-wide progression by placing this hurtle on players. I had 10 85s waiting for Pandaria, then I went Monk so I had 10 85s and a 90. The moment I found out I had to redo all this again--which by the way, I loved story progression and unraveling it through dailies--I stopped half way through Klaxxi and Vale dailies and focused back on my Paladin, previously my main. Once again I have no wishes on playing another class. Youve sucked the live outta accountwide progression.

Just my 2 cents from a 7 yr vet.


This is the crux of the issue that the daily hero crowd just won't acknowledge. Whether you're a pro raider trying to maintain a stable of alts for high end progression, or just want to level a dungeon hero alt to pass the time, there's a wall of dailies standing in your way. I'm not even going to get started on profession alts. Sure, they're technically not 'required' but then neither is leveling an alt, or for that matter staying subscribed. When the constraints to any sense of progression or moving forward become so pronounced, why bother?

Double rep is a nice start, but you're still probably talking about at least 3 weeks of 7 day a week dailies to get through AC rep, not including any new reputations that are upcoming.

Maybe Blizzard's intention truly is something like 'do dailies or GTFO' but I sincerely doubt it. Personally, I've spent a ton of cash faction changing and server transferring for alts alone, I know many others that have also. If this is a business decision it really has the potential to backfire in a lot of ways.

One thing I will say - I do think they might have gone overboard with 'account wide' achievements, mounts, etc. and I was fairly vocal against it back when it was being introduced. However, trying to counterbalance that by neutering alts completely is bad form and doesn't really balance things in any tangible way.
I was going to make a post that people should describe how they would ideally spend their playtime. Meaning, summarily give an example of how you'd ideally spend a weekday and weekend play session.

But, as this thread develops I'm starting to get the gist that people want to log in and raid, and when they cap out one toon - go ahead and raid on another toon. Lots of the throw backs to WotLK and separate lockouts hint at this. Where, the only desirable content is really raid content.
11/14/2012 08:31 AMPosted by Hyjinx
The slowing of the game and removal of items such as HGWT, fast run speed when dead, the plethora of dailies, vermin and weeds when farming, junk when fishing, is all a ploy to extend content without having to release new content. It is completely contradictory to every move they've made in the past 3 expansions.


I find it odd that you think this when A) Pandaria has had at least as many things to do as the previous 3 expansions and B) I believe Patch 5.1 - with more content! - is going to come out faster than any other supplemental content patch in the game's history.


I find A to be extremely funny considering a little more than 1% has completed the raiding content. So even if we wanted to we can bearly access said content. And the other content. Has been passed up by the average player before even 2 months has passed most people have to rely on world raid bosses and lfr for gear and considering scenarios give no progression along with challenge modes giving no progression doing both as a raider Is pointless to try to progressing in for gear
And point b 5.1 has gaited content and more dailys brawlers guild wont be seen by most people other then one guild (atleast on horde bonechewer) because they will not let anyone out bid them on bmah they. Will prolly take everry invitation and not share them until there guild has them all then sell it for. redic prices considering therre general additude on my server towards other guilds.


ok u got confused with the Math there

25 - 30mins per run * 12-13 runs = 1000VPs = 5 - 6 hrs of playing (Cata) - 80 VPs per run
25 - 30mins per run * 25 runs = 1000VPs = 10.5 - 12.5 hrs of playing (MOP) - 40VPs per run

So the players have to play harder (play double time) to get the gears that they wanted :)


Um, my math is 80 VP per run, daily = 560 VP per week, with a deficit of 440 VP which is 11 more runs. That's 18 runs, for a total of 30 min each which is 9 hours.

Now, personally I don't really need to do more than one per day. And, once I get bracers today, I no longer have a need for VP. So I've capped VP for 6 weeks + 250 and have no further need for it.

I don't think valor is 80 per run, its 80 for the first then 40 after that right?

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