Farewell WoW, MoP = RIP

General Discussion
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Zarhym, I'm not someone who necessarily wants to bring back reputation tabards, and I don't mind doing dailies (although some of the individual dailies are bad). But I feel you're coming off disingenuous at best (and oblivious at worst) to ask why people feel like they are forced into doing dailies. If you guys have been reading only 25% of what's been discussed on the forums and elsewhere, you'd know why people feel forced into it.

The answer is simple - because Blizzard made the decision to require reputation for valor point gear and for many crafting recipes. Yes, it's true that most people don't *really* need those items, but by now you should know your player base well enough to realize that a very large portion of people will feel obligated and pressured to do anything that improves their gear - regardless of whether the pressure is only internal or coming from their guild.

I only started in WotLK, but as far as I know never before has Blizzard had the combination of requiring reputation for so many top-end items and only providing dailies as a way to get that reputation.

Also having it be required to reach Revered with Golden Lotus before you can start Shado-Pan or August Celestial dailies just adds to the frustration. One argument people make is "you don't have to do all of them!" But if I want *anything* from Shado-Pan or AC, I have to do lots and lots of GL dailies. As an enchanter if I want all the recipes - then I have to get Revered with all three factions.

And finally, I think you're underestimating how frustrating some of the dailies are, even if you don't mind dailies as a concept. You have dailies with low drop rates (the Klaxxi ones), dailies where you have too few mobs being targeted by too many players ("Fatty Goat Steak" and some of the other Tiller dailies); and too many dailies that are just generic "kill X number of mobs, farm Y number of items" (i.e. - Golden Lotus). The quests and quest hubs seem to have strange randomization - I've heard of people reaching Exalted with the Golden Lotus without ever doing "Roll Club" or the Cloud Serpents without ever having to do a dragon race. And with GL - if there's one particular daily you don't like, you can't just skip it, because doing so can prevent you from unlocking all the following hubs.

So yes, there's a lot of frustration - and I think a lot of people wish Blizzard would provide a response other than "why do feel forced?" when the answer is pretty obvious, or you don't comment on some of the mechanics that make the individual dailies so frustrating.


^

Lovely summation, well put Amandalynn.
I have a sneaking suspicion that people feel they NEED to do the dailies because you guys put epic items in there with the reputation factions. If they weren't in there people would not feel as compelled to have to log in every day for that shiny purple. Don't get me wrong, having the mounts and toys near revered/exalted is a good idea since not everyone is a hardcore mount collector, there would be much less whine from the populace if the armor was either removed or easier to acquire.

By having the Epic items spread across various factions people are feeling the need to grind those factions out in order to boost their overall power. Especially considering you cannot even get rep for the august celestials or the shadow-pan until the golden lotus is revered, this even further creates the NEED to do the dailies for those people that want to gear their toons as quickly as possible.

Though I could be off base and people feel they just need the extra roll token every week; in which case I feel no sympathy for you :P If you aren't in a hardcore raid guild suck it up and accept that you are casual therefore have no NEED to use an extra roll 3x a week.
11/12/2012 05:56 PMPosted by Reactable
Well you are forced to do dailies if you do pvp or pve.


We're rats pushing a lever for a reward. We've been pushing that lever forever and getting minimal rewards. But why? Because blizzard has us hooked. They know that even though it would take forever to grind and grind, people will still do the rep to get the rewards.

It's kinda sick, really. Because after you press that lever so many times, you don't get it, you starve for something and end up going mad over it.

One of my pass times is leveling and gearing alts. I HATE the new rep grinds because its hard to gear a brand new 90 to do dailies. You don't do dailies? You're stuck with Heroic gear that is barely subpar with LFR gear. LFR gear has a terrible change at dropping. You can't do normal raids unless you do those dailies (because progression raiders are a-holes). So you're stuck with Valor that you can't. Even. USE. I will NOT be grinding rep on my other characters.

I enjoy playing and gearing characters because just playing my hunter is incredibly borring. I already am sick to death of him, but going and doing dailies on my rogue or Shaman just sounds like the last thing I want to do.
I'm still personally on the fence with this whole issue.

But I only really run one toon, this guy.

I will admit that I haven't done much for dailies for a week. I'm kind of disappointed in two things with them (not sure if here is appropriate but here we go).

1) Golden Lotus is what's burning people out, this I'm sure of. They're long and in 3 sections, it takes seemingly forever to do these, it's required to hit revered to unlock two others, and they feel like they're taking the place of GOOD questing. It would have made more sense if there were 3-4 splits after doing the first two sections once or as like a weekly. This whole grind just feels painful. The only thing that kept me going here was the eventual light at the end of the tunnel so to speak. I really can't imagine doing this grind on a second toon...

2) Klaxxi feels disjointed and incomplete. Parts of it just flat out feel rushed and not as tested or well done as others. It really feels like it was thrown together at the last minute for that one more rep. This is one that I'm having big problems motivating myself to do right now. They're just not fun when put up against the Shado-Pan and Celestials.

I'm not going to go into the challenges that my wife and I are having with gearing and replacing basic stuff for our main sets. In the past there was really good raid level gear to help when hitting max. That's all gone and stuck behind VP costs. Then on the flip side there is no traditional VP fill in gear without getting to at least revered with the reps. Other than this, it's getting lucky on drops, which I've managed a bit, as has my wife.

All I know is I'm feeling a level of frustration right now, and a large portion of it was from a week of work while I was on vacation that doesn't feel like I got much accomplished due to lack-luster rewards on the casual end and RNG luck based rewards from the group content. Scenarios are a perfect example of lack-luster underwhelming rewards... I've yet to see a drop from these..............

It's not that there was too much content, it's that the content and rewards were too gated and tiered.

If this opening salvo of content is supposed to last us until April or May, I'll be okay with it and understand. However with the release of the 5.1 previews, I just don't know. For the first time it almost feels like there's too much to do, it's weird.

I know I'm being a bit contradictory, but I know and feel like there is some sort of an issue, but I'm having trouble really putting my finger on it at this point.
11/12/2012 05:58 PMPosted by Xamont
We hit the enrage timer on the 3rd boss, guess what, we found out it wasn't lack of dps it was we did something that could be adjusted and downed him, it isn't always about DPS it's also about understanding certain things and learning from mistakes, this whole first tier is DESIGNED for a 463 ilvl as in IT CAN BE DONE! If you are sucking out in DPS maybe it isn't the gear and it's the PLAYER who needs to learn more about their class!


We also hit that enrage timer on Gara'jal and found ways around it, and killed it. Same with Blade Lord and Will of the Emperor, I'm just saying outside of raiding the best way to get gear and to help your raid is dailies, therefore why wouldn't you do them? I would hope everyone in my raid group wants to do everything they can to help us on every fight, bringing flasks, using food etc, and I would hope they would have the best gear they can get outside of raid drops.

I would rather we could still progress our characters threw dungeons, or hell put gear on challenge mode difficulty dungeons and make them have a strict lockout but give 489 blues. Like Heroic+ or something lol
Monk, pretty nice name, lucky to get it! :)

Anyways, if I had 9 classes to 90 I'd have quitted by now too, I'm taking you're not a raider, judging by your armory (unless you do it on another character) there's no really need to feel forced into doing Dailies or capping VPs every week.

I was a hardcore raider in Cata but now I'm not, and the huge amount of content that MoP has is just perfect for me, while I may go back to hardcore raiding next tier for now I'm enjoying the dailies and I don't do theme every day, I'm not obliged to do so; the fact that I don't have a group of people that I need to keep you and give my best with at the moment means there's no hurry for me to get X or Y piece of gear because the full potential of it is not being utilized now.

Just take a break imo, and come back in 5.1 and 5.2, there's nothing wrong with getting tired of a game and taking a break, I've done it many times, checked other games and it really makes things go a long way.
Firstly, 9 x lvl 90's including one monk leveled all the way and assuming the rest were already at 85. That in itself is enough to make you dislike the game. Gearing the all would be a nightmare.

I chose to only play one toon when MoP came around and i play casually (yes that dreaded word that every WoW player seems to not want to be). I decided to play the auction house instead of daily's as at the start of a expansion you can make a killing. The only daily's i did were tillers because i liked planting things and Klaxxi because i wanted the neck piece. I cashed in two lots of charms all which resulted in 28g loot rolls and have stopped doing daily's since.

Bottom line is i purchased most of my gear from the auction house and run raid finder every week which i enjoy. I have 10 x 85's which will probably never get touched again but i am ok with that! I must admit if i did play like most people and grind daily's on several toons i would probably hate the game by now.

The way i look at it now is i get roughly 6 hours enjoyment from WoW per week so 24 hours per month. $14.99 / 24 = $1.71 per hour = Cheap entertainment.
I forgot that AC and SP were gated behind a rep requirement from GL. Isn't there a meme about that?

Yo dawg, we heard you like to grind rep so we put a rep grind in your rep grind so you can grind rep while you grind rep.
1 main 4 alts all 90 and raid ready in every aspect, with 4 more to go 3 85's and 1 level 62 monk. Just saying and btw check my achieves i blew through the content in 2 days because it is a great story, but it IS ruined by the dailies check for rep and the leveling process is killed thanks to CRZ so my monk is rarely played.
11/12/2012 04:30 PMPosted by Zarhym
What pushes you into reputation progression such that you feel you have to do it x9 and burn out on the game?


The answer will probably vary between people, but dailies give you so much that it will inevitably feel like you're crippling yourself if you don't do them.

Is this really a surprise to Blizzard? Every single thing about the MoP endgame is obviously designed to funnel players into dailies. Everything gives you VP, but only dailies let you spend VP. Dailies give you rep (which is a goal in and of itself for some people, though I'm not one of them), mounts, achievements, titles, gold, valor, the ability to spend valor, charms of good fortune, vanity items, trade goods, trade recipes, Wrathion rep (for all intents and purposes), and the ability to ride cloud serpents. The only things dailies don't give you are justice (which is kind of useless this expansion) and PvP currency.

I doubt anyone wants all of those things. But I think we can pretty much guarantee that everyone wants at least one or two, and since several of the more important ones (the ability to spend valor and charms) aren't available any other way, I think it's safe to say we're always going to feel gimped if we don't do dailies.

So if you decide that you don't want to do the dailies, you just feel your endgame shrink and your options for progression fall away. This is why I've cancelled my sub until such time as the endgame is repaired.

For me, valor is what I can't live without. For me, the endgame has always been about farming valor (and emblems before that). It's what I enjoy. I like having a clear goal with measurable progress, not praying to RNG gods. But I refuse to do something I don't enjoy in a game, so I'm not doing the valor dailies, so I have no reason to log in. My endgame has evaporated. I'm only logging on to my 90 once a week to do LFR, and then it's off to leveling my monk or Guild Wars 2.

I like dailies; just not these dailies. They're not well-designed, and feeling like I have to do them every day on every character sucks the fun out of them. I like Tillers because they're better designed quests, you progress quickly, and you don't lose much if you skip a day. Golden Lotus, on the other hand, is one of the worst daily grinds I've ever seen. Dull and uncreative quests, too much competition because of the small quest areas, pitifully small rep rewards from each quest, no plot to speak of. I'd rather go back to Quel'danas -- at least it had that fun bombing run, and everything felt connected to a greater plot. Why do I need to collect worms to fight off a Mogu invasion?

Ultimately, as people are so fond of pointing out, you can choose not to do the dailies, but that's not really what I'd call a choice. I can run scenarios or dungeons to get valor is a choice. Do dailies or opt out of a core progression system is not a choice: it's an ultimatum.

Zarhym, I'm not someone who necessarily wants to bring back reputation tabards, and I don't mind doing dailies (although some of the individual dailies are bad). But I feel you're coming off disingenuous at best (and oblivious at worst) to ask why people feel like they are forced into doing dailies. If you guys have been reading only 25% of what's been discussed on the forums and elsewhere, you'd know why people feel forced into it.

The answer is simple - because Blizzard made the decision to require reputation for valor point gear and for many crafting recipes. Yes, it's true that most people don't *really* need those items, but by now you should know your player base well enough to realize that a very large portion of people will feel obligated and pressured to do anything that improves their gear - regardless of whether the pressure is only internal or coming from their guild.

I only started in WotLK, but as far as I know never before has Blizzard had the combination of requiring reputation for so many top-end items and only providing dailies as a way to get that reputation.

Also having it be required to reach Revered with Golden Lotus before you can start Shado-Pan or August Celestial dailies just adds to the frustration. One argument people make is "you don't have to do all of them!" But if I want *anything* from Shado-Pan or AC, I have to do lots and lots of GL dailies. As an enchanter if I want all the recipes - then I have to get Revered with all three factions.

And finally, I think you're underestimating how frustrating some of the dailies are, even if you don't mind dailies as a concept. You have dailies with low drop rates (the Klaxxi ones), dailies where you have too few mobs being targeted by too many players ("Fatty Goat Steak" and some of the other Tiller dailies); and too many dailies that are just generic "kill X number of mobs, farm Y number of items" (i.e. - Golden Lotus). The quests and quest hubs seem to have strange randomization - I've heard of people reaching Exalted with the Golden Lotus without ever doing "Roll Club" or the Cloud Serpents without ever having to do a dragon race. And with GL - if there's one particular daily you don't like, you can't just skip it, because doing so can prevent you from unlocking all the following hubs.

So yes, there's a lot of frustration - and I think a lot of people wish Blizzard would provide a response other than "why do feel forced?" when the answer is pretty obvious, or you don't comment on some of the mechanics that make the individual dailies so frustrating.


This. Very, very much this.

Another sticking point is you brought up being forced to either do dailies or PvP. Why? Looking only at progression of character power at 90, do you not want to do scenarios, dungeons, or raids? What pushes you into reputation progression such that you feel you have to do it x9 and burn out on the game?

Might have something to do with the fact that you required rep in order to spend valor points? People liked being able to get epics from doing heroics, whether it was from valor points, buying them with gold after getting rep from heroics, or as loot from the last boss of an instance. Merging the VP and rep requirements on top of limiting rep gains to daily quests and removing epics from instances (the 1% drop rate ones in MoP don't count) made heroics feel a lot less rewarding.
VP and rep were fine as seperate means of progression, forcing players to do both to get any benefit from the other just pisses people off
[quote]
Another sticking point is you brought up being forced to either do dailies or PvP. Why? Looking only at progression of character power at 90, do you not want to do scenarios, dungeons, or raids? What pushes you into reputation progression such that you feel you have to do it x9 and burn out on the game?


Do you guys not notice how people are forced to do dailies? You linked so many things to dailies and you say that people don't have to do them, but for anyone who wants to further progress on their character they NEED to do them. You need to do dailies to get rep to even spend your valor, you need to do dailies to get the Charms of Good Fortune. ( Which I like the idea, I just wish there was other ways to get them, like raids or dungeons or something, not dailies ) If these two things weren't tied to reputation from dailies it would all be fine. If you could just spend valor like in Cataclysm things would be so much better and you could get Charms from other things besides dailies I think people would stop complaining.
I think a lot of people would feel a bit better about the whole daily rep grind (instead of the old tabard rep grind in dungeons we had previous 2), is if the rep gain was more. Previous expansions (at least wrath and cata, can't remember far enough back for tbc), when turning in a daily quest, you gained 250 rep (275 with the 10% from either human or guild). Now, each daily (for the most part) grants only 125 rep, meaning 1/2 what we are used to.

All that would need to be changed is doubling the rep gain on ALL characters per daily turn in that only gives 125 at the moment. Not adding in some purchasable item (which will probably be a couple thousand gold) that gives extra rep when you have a character at revered.

Just double the rep, and problem (basically) solved.
11/12/2012 06:11 PMPosted by Därkly
The reputation also gives access to the BEST enchants ( Shado-Pan ) , How can you even justify asking why he felt that he NEEDED to do dailies , you have basically tied every thing into them....


They know the reasons why... they did this on purpose. They just love to come and act innocent while asking why people feel forced. Where they were wrong is they underestimated a lot of their players by thinking that they would accept this kind of slavery. Now they are trying to communicate more to try to hold people from leaving. Even GC is being more active and asking what people would do with their geared alts. They know they screwed up.


I don't think they screwed up so much as got over confident with a massive and complex system of slowing down everyone to a crawl to the extent of really hurting heavy alt players.

Like I said, I'm a 1-2 hour a night guy with one toon I really play, and I'll admit at this point something doesn't feel right.

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