Farewell WoW, MoP = RIP

General Discussion
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For instance, we talked recently to the developers about an evolution on the idea of being able to champion a faction via a tabard. What we don't want to repeat is the design that let players max out every faction reputation just by wearing a tabard while doing other content. So instead of endlessly getting reputation for every dungeon, maybe you only get a bonus once a day. It doesn't allow you to skip dailies altogether, but you can at least pad your rep gains a little bit.

Another cool part about this idea is that we can probably make it work through the UI, rather than requiring you to wear a tabard you may not think matches your bracers (teehee). It could be as simple as making it so that you champion the faction you selected to show as your XP bar.

It brings me some joy to know that the topic is, in fact, being discussed internally. My favorite thing to do in this game is healing. Nothing brings me more enjoyment than healing for a guild group, or a stranger group. In Wrath, I ran tons of dungeons. I just loved it. I can't just "heal" when I'm doing dailies. Even if I'm grouped, there's no healing required. So, dailies are just not fun to me. I did finally pick up a dps spec for them, but I don't enjoy it either. I just want to heal, and adding back dungeons as a path to reputation would just make me happy with the game all over again.
Gonna be honest, my biggest problem with the rep gates is the recipes.

I have Exalted on all the major Pandaria factions on my main.

The problem is, this is my Tailoring/Enchanting alt. I have been faithfully making Imperial Silk on her almost every day since the expansion started.

And yet, to use that on almost anything worthwhile, I will have to redo the Golden Lotus/August Celestials grind. Which isn't looking fun right now.

I mean, if I could just run heroics on her without a care in the world, grab a few upgrades, and jump into LFR, that would be one thing.

But I need more bag space, and especially since there's no "Green" bag like there has been past expansions, I will need to grind to at least Honored on one faction and at least exalted on another just to expand my bag space.

Sure, I COULD buy Royal Satchels on the AH, but... That still leaves me with 2 stacks of Imperial Silk on my alt.

And besides, I spent all my money making my rocket ship.

I mean, it's not like recipes haven't been on rep vendors before. I can deal with that, per se.

But having to run that ENTIRE rep grind all over again, dailies only, AND not even be able to make, say, a couple 26 slot bags using Windwool Cloth bolts and maybe a mysterious essence to tide me over until I hit exalted? Feels a little bad, man.
They were pointing out something completely irrelevant to the point I was making. Yes, you can get through the content with blue gear... but your DPS is going to suck compared to someone who did their dailies.

It's a terrible model that forces players to do content they don't want to do in order to stay competitive.

You can also get gear from LFR.

The gear from valor is on par with gear that drops in raid. You want raid gear in order to do the raid the same quality of gear drops from....

No one is forced into anyone. It's the perception of some of the player base that they NEED this gear in order to raid, when in reality the design is such that you only need the gear level below it. Getting all of the valor gear and then going into raid is almost like punching in cheat codes into a console game. Or getting to level 30 then going back and killing hogger..

The valor gear is an alternative to the raid gear. It is not necessary to raid. It is not even necessary to be competitive.

Another sticking point is you brought up being forced to either do dailies or PvP. Why? Looking only at progression of character power at 90, do you not want to do scenarios, dungeons, or raids? What pushes you into reputation progression such that you feel you have to do it x9 and burn out on the game?

Here's what I don't understand about the new model of justice and valor points for Mists:

You can earn justice points by running dungeons, just as you could previous to Mists, and to spend the justice points you already worked hard to get, you don't need to do anything else but walk up to a vendor and select your reward. (Post Hotfix, of course) This is line with the original goal of the points system (correct me if I'm wrong). Weren't they intended to supplement the drops you would receive out of dungeons and raids. So in case you had extremely bad luck getting the drops you wanted, you weren't stuck progressing your character until you had a good roll on an item?

Now in Mists, you can earn valor points in a variety of different ways: scenarios, dungeons, raids, challenge modes, and dailies. There are so many different ways to earn valor that if you attempted to do them all, you would be at your weekly cap very quickly. However, (and I feel this is where it breaks down): In order to spend my hard-earned valor points, it is required that I do daily quests in order to unlock the reputation required. And on top of that, I can't even pick the reward I really want and just do those dailies to get there, because the reputations are gated with Golden Lotus revered being required to unlock the other factions. This is why I think many people feel "forced" to do dailies. What used to be a 2 step process: 1) Earn Valor, 2) Spend Valor... is now painfully more involved.

If Mists is supposed to allow me to choose the activity I enjoy the most in order to progress my character, why is it that I must do dailies in order to spend the rewards I get by doing unrelated activities like dungeons and raids?

Sidenote: This is a reason why I feel things like reputation tabards would make even more sense in an expansion like Mists. They would allow you to pick the reputation/reward combination you care about the most and work towards it in a manner that you find the most fun. That could be the daily quest solo path or the group dungeon/raid path. Heck it would be nice to even alternate the two paths every now and then.

I enjoyed doing the dailies on my main, once. Now I have a few alts at 90 and it really is starting to feel like a chore. Yet for the reasons above, I feel compelled to keep doing them, especially because I changed mains about two weeks ago - I don't want to get left behind, and I don't want to be the weak link in my guild.
I leveled nine classes to 90

MoP ruined this game for people like me, I have a family, and I cannot and WILL not be forced into doing dailies across all my toons or hell even ONE toon in order to progressively gear my characters.

Does not compute.

Seriously. It took me a week to level ONE character from 85 to 90. Wish I had that kind of available playtime.
Z, do you remember - about a year or two ago - Ghostcrawler said something on the lines of if a specific DPS spec was considered even 3% higher DPS, that most serious raiders would consider switching specs in order to maximize their output, and that made balancing DPS specs within a class a development nightmare?

The only way to get epic gear for preraiding, and twice as good a chance of getting loot from the bosses you need, is tied behind dailies. This goes far beyond a 3% difference. How can you possibly figure that dailies do not become mandatory for any serious raider who doesn't enjoy bringing his entire raid down?

Any serious raider is already exalted with all the factions and didn't complain about it in the mean time.
Finally ready to call it quits, realized today after almost 8 years of playing that I just didn't enjoy the game anymore.

MoP ruined this game for people like me, I have a family, and I cannot and WILL not be forced into doing dailies across all my toons or hell even ONE toon in order to progressively gear my characters.

The new loot system for LFR, Sha, etc is completely unbearable, constantly seeing 28g pop up across all my toons gives me ZERO incentive to continue grinding out the casual content I am used to.

And its not like I havent given it time, I leveled nine classes to 90, and going through the same content over and over wasn't so bad, its the point where you get to 90 and you are pigeon holed into grinding dailies over and over or PVP'ing (which I do NOT enjoy). So I canceled today, which is saying alot because I play alot and used to enjoy this game massively.

Some will flame me, blizz will probably close the post, but truth be told, if they don't address these things soon there will be many following suit.

to be totally honest, i understand and agree that the grind is insane with multiple factions, i honestly didnt touch the anglers and tillers until now that i have the rest exalted.

the issue however with you, believe it or not, is you burnt yourself out. 9 90s...really. thats a TON or focused play.

i go to college and dont take an easy course either, im in final semester engineering and i do good enough to have a job offer ready for me when i graduate, i work part time and raid tuesday to thursday 3 hours each day, 12 hours weekly, have a gf i spend time with and deal with family gatherings on weekends. even with all that, just 1 90, and doing dailies is to the edge of my limits nearly. now that im exalted its alot easier. you have 9...90s....i dont assume that u do dailies on all of them, but if u do i have no idea how u find time for ANYTHING else.
Zarhym, with respect, it seems as if you’re looking for holes in the argument perhaps to a greater degree than you’re looking for gleaned gems of insight.

It’s conceivable the OP levelled so many characters because they were so turned off with the prospects for enjoyment at end game that they serially avoided it. That may not be true in this, but it is possible.

As an occasional forum observer, I’m seeing a lot of ill will towards the reward systems in MoP and I have to say I personally think the daily quest rep rewards are cynically punitive on player’s time and content choices. A daily involving killing 12 of X now rewards 100 base rep where previously it rewarded 250 base rep. The same effort, 40% reward. I’m not enjoying that and I don’t see why I should. That’s flat out worse than grinding mobs at 10 rep a pop.

I’d like to hear what Blizzard think preferred paths at end-game should be with respect to multi-character accounts because it sure looks like players are channelled heavily towards doing dailies.

When levelling, there’s one primary point type, XP. Almost every type of content rewards that point type so a player has the complete spectrum of content to choose in order to obtain points. Freedom encourages fun.

That play flexibility does not remain true in the end game. If you want to craft, you must run that specific character for rep and harmony. If you want rep (and the multi-dipping rewards behind it) you must run dailies. Yes, there are other means to acquire gear for a single character but dungeons, scenarios and raids do not benefit other characters on an account.

For me it’s the sheer quantity of multi-dipping behind dailies that suggests missing them is missing out in the scheme of the reward systems. I have an account of characters, not just a single character. I want to acquire recipes and craft gear to support the future progression of my other characters. One of the advantages to having a set of characters is the ability to enhance them all through the synergies of gathering and crafting. The next leveller gets the best on offer from the previous.

Two systems stick in my craw in this respect at present:
1. Trivialised rep returns from dailies. The pain just takes too long.
2. Harmony being BoP. A big fat wall exists between gathering achieved on one character and my other characters. They’re all on their own and cannot act as members of a team.

If I skip the horrible daily grind for scenarios, heroics or whatever, I’m just enhancing one character. If I do the dailies, I’m just going to loathe the game and indirectly those who designed the systems. I’m prepared to do some content that just feels mind numbingly boring but when I feel it’s only there as a cynical ploy to drag out the currency of the content, I just feel robbed of my time rather than the game being a fun place to be.

End game also consists of gathering, BGs, arena, dungeons, scenarios, pet battles and so on. If I felt I could run what I enjoy and trade the points from a fun activity for points from a decidedly non-fun activity eg X honour for Y faction rep, then both the breadth and enjoyment of end game would be a lot different than it is now.
Bliizard, you have to understand that the limits you place on alternate characters is stupid. You have pretty much opened up the game to the casual market throwing away many, many time sinks yet you still impose an incredible penalty on alt characters, one of the best tools you have in changing up the game experience for the player. Hell, you even redesigned the enitre 1-60 quest experience but its just NOT worth the amount of time it takes to 'gear' up a character.

You should be able to freely send Honor, Justice, Valor and Conquest points to any character on your account. Why not? "We want you playing the actual character to earn those rewards" Is the reply from Blizzard. But why? Who cares if you send an alt 4000 honor points? You are still playing the game, you just sent another character some stuff, earnt by the player in game. I could NOT be bothered leveling any alts after seeing what you have to do progression wise at 90. !@#$, I can't be bothered doing half the crap you need to do on my main, let alone another alt.

If I send another alt a crap load of tokens to gear up the character to make it halfway competitive then I should be able to. Guess what, I am going to jump on that alt and enjoy my time because I amnot starting from scratch. The crafted gear excuse doen't wash with me either, that stuff is outdated by the first patch of the game, let alone the 3rd patch.
what if there was a system in place to let the players adjust the type of rewards we get for doing the dailies, for instance we could sacrifice some or all of the valor and gold rewarded by the dailies for an increase in reputation gained, and then later when we dont need the rep we could substitute that for more valor and or gold, and when we dont need valor we could just do the dailies for gold if and or when we need it
I think the problem with dailies (besides issues being alone in the world and everyone is just competition) is that there are so many rewards attached to them.

Valor, Coins, Rep -> Epic gear, Professions, Mounts, Random stuff.

It may not be forced, but dailies sure are loaded with incentives beyond anything else.

Yeah LFR might give better rewards, but it's also incredibly random and once a week type thing.
gear progress in cata post 4.1 was great and should not have changed in 5.0. I even like how you took tier away from the vp vendors.

let me tell you about the first time i herd about dailys it was back in wrath I was not playing this game then. but when i learned of them I made fun of my friend for playing a game like that. i said you do what? the same quest over and over again every day? i would jump off a bridge before I did the same quest over and over again.

dailys are not fun have never been fun and will never be fun.

the only content i want to change is instance content and raid content. meaning differnt boss mechanics nothing else.

look at my stats and see how many dailys i have done.

And since it's brought up a lot, I completely understand the existing concerns players have about earning Valor through other sources and being locked from spending it for reputation rewards. It's something we'll continue to talk about -- be precise and feel free to suggest improvements!

Here's a few simple ones:
1) Remove the requirement that you be Revered with the Golden Lotus before staring Shado-Pan/August Celestial dailies. Or maybe just change it to Honored with the Golden Lotus
2) Put Enchanting recipes behind one faction, not two. Same for any other profession that has patterns spread across different factions. That will make it easier for people to pick specific factions to focus on.
3) And while not directly related to reputation rewards, do some things to make the actual dailies less tedious. Make drop rates better. Add more fatty goats. Make it so you can skip individual Golden Lotus dailies and still proceed to the next hub.
4) Along with #3 - and this is more complicated - I'd like to see some change to how it determines which quests you get. If ...for example....Whitepetal Lake is a quest hub today, make it less likely that it will be a quest hub tomorrow. And if it does come out to Whitepetal Lake a 2nd day in a row, then make it even more less likely the third day.

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