Farewell WoW, MoP = RIP

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But not allowing other options is effectively blocking people who choose not to do dailies of the rewards of the game.
Nobody wants everything handed to them (well I'm sure some people do) but most people really just want an option. I bet if there was dailies and a capped tabard and grinding mobs for rep/hand-ins people would be a lot happier. And then the real hardcore people will do all and get there faster. Just like the game is meant to be played.

Dude, 90% people don't want options. What people want is all the rewards in one place. If I told you the reward structure was:

Dungeons = Gear + valor
Scenarios = Rep + valor

90% of people would start complaining about Scenarios and how they don't like them.

They'd complain because that's just one option again.
11/12/2012 07:55 PMPosted by Zarhym
Do you take this to the Dev team? What I mean is do you collect the discontent and address it higher?

Absolutely! We chat with them via IM and email daily, we meet with them at least once a week to ask common questions from players, and we do a very in-depth global community report every week that breaks down all of the hot topics in the community and offers action items if applicable. Every community report is read by the game's lead designers, all the way up to Rob Pardo and Mike Morhaime.

Some of the topics we cover might not be as easy to openly discuss with the community, but rest assured that's because the necessary discussions and meetings are taking place to really dig into the hot topics/questions so we can form a more concrete agenda.

I love hearing the intimacy of how things work, it makes me feel better to know that things really are happening behind the scenes.
So what's wrong with capping how much rep you can gain a day via dungeon tabbards? Make it the exact same amount of rep that you would get if you did that set of dailys for the day and let the dungeon crawlers cap at the same rate as the people who get the rep thru dailys. You do either one or the other or a bit of both but the time spent is the exact same but you give a different option instead of dailys.

Has blizz considered that?
You may not like daily quests. But that alone isn't justification for making daily quests irrelevant for those running group content. By running dungeons with tabards, you effectively got to double-dip in Cataclysm by gaining access to rep rewards, VP rewards, and dungeon drops. It was super convenient, and also left players with a system that didn't really reward you for doing more than the bare minimum of raiding and running seven dungeons each week.

Now there is incentive to vary the content you do. The idea that, "I have a tabard so this endgame content doesn't apply to me," is gone.

Here is one thing though : Going from an extreme to another isn't what I'd call making good decisions. Effectively, in Cataclysm (and to some extent, Wrath too), you could just do dungeons and have all the benefits from the reps too. I agree with you that this wasn't the best design.

But instead of making the rep obtainable by dailies only, why wouldn't you make it so you there is a daily cap on the rep you can obtain in one day, either equivalent to what doing all the dailies would give yoy ? Or maybe, you could do like for PvP, where you have 2 different caps, one you can obtain with dungeons, and the other by dailies only. This way, people wouldn't double dip while using the tabards, they'd have to do dailies in order to "speed up" the process for faster progression, but people wouldn't have the feeling that dailies are forced through their throat. Also, people actually enjoying dailies wouldn't be at any disadvantages.

I know you said your design isn't perfect, and I don't think I've proposed isn't either, but you would minimize the negative impact that dailies seems to have on some players without changing anything for the daily-quest-lover.
11/12/2012 08:07 PMPosted by Tomaxx
Getting the gear super fast and easy made people blow through the content at a much faster rate which led to "lack of content" and now that it takes longer to get VP gear (which I still say isn't needed) and people are blowing through the content they come on and complain that they CAN'T blow through it, Blizzard is in a damned if you do damned if you don't situation and I think they should just say "Shut the heck up, this is how we are making the game"

Actually I think it was "lack of content" that led to "lack of content."
The core problem is that, in your scenario you laid out, with multiple paths to progression loot, the Dungeon rewards structure blows chunks.

1) It's dependent on RNG

So, you have a problem with a game whose system is based on RNG in almost every aspect.....having RNG in it?
So what's wrong with capping how much rep you can gain a day via dungeon tabbards? Make it the exact same amount of rep that you would get if you did that set of dailys for the day and let the dungeon crawlers cap at the same rate as the people who get the rep thru dailys. You do either one or the other or a bit of both but the time spent is the exact same but you give a different option instead of dailys.

Has blizz considered that?

I was a few minutes too late haha, we just thought exactly the same :p
11/12/2012 04:30 PMPosted by Zarhym
What pushes you into reputation progression such that you feel you have to do it x9 and burn out on the game?

Because I feel that if I don't get into HoF LFR asap, and get the tier gear i need i will get behind and wont be able to catch up when the next tier comes out. That's why i feel rushed to do everything right away.
11/12/2012 06:54 PMPosted by Zarhym
For instance, we talked recently to the developers about an evolution on the idea of being able to champion a faction via a tabard. What we don't want to repeat is the design that let players max out every faction reputation just by wearing a tabard while doing other content. So instead of endlessly getting reputation for every dungeon, maybe you only get a bonus once a day. It doesn't allow you to skip dailies altogether, but you can at least pad your rep gains a little bit.

Oooh oooh idea! Once in a 24 hour period a character can speak with a faction representative and champion the cause gaining a 24 hour buff that lets them take any kills they get in dungeons, and raid and apply it towards their chosen faction.
Having said all of that, I'm just not personally sure we can design a game that's going to feel fresh and rife with content every time you login, if the expectation is that the average World of Warcraft player will have nine level-90 characters less than two months after the expansion's release. I really don't mean this as a judgment of how you choose to spend your time, either. But when considering everything you said in your post -- you mention needing time for family and enjoying casual content -- your noted (or implied) play time really sticks out.

Another sticking point is you brought up being forced to either do dailies or PvP. Why? Looking only at progression of character power at 90, do you not want to do scenarios, dungeons, or raids? What pushes you into reputation progression such that you feel you have to do it x9 and burn out on the game?

Here's my incoherent rant:

I'm working on my fourth and fifth 90's right now and essentially I see my progression as:
- If I need a 450 weapon when I hit 90, I will do Arena of Annihilation
- Buy cheap PVP gear to get my ilvl up to run heroics until I can queue for raid finder

Heroics alone won't get me into raid finder, so I just transfer my boa epic inscription staff around to get those extra points. My guild even has boe gear sitting in the guild bank that we use solely to be able to queue for things. People withdraw it and put it back when they're done. It's generally cloth armor since all classes can "equip" it.

I would do more dailies on this toon, but I'm bored to tears with them. I'm not even exalted with most factions, so non of my other characters will qualify for the double bonus, which I probably wouldn't take advantage of anyway since the reputation grind takes so long.

When 5.1 hits, my progression path for all characters will be hit 90, run heroics, upgrade gear to get into raid finder, run raid finder, upgrade loot I get from that in order to queue for the next level of raid finder. Repeat.

Getting gear from raid finder seems to take a lot longer than it used to with the older loot system... and then when I win something, it's a piece I don't need (a lower ilvl neck piece, or a trinket I've already got).

Scenarios are very boring. They don't have any type of epic feel to them the way dungeon boss fights do. The "rewards" are also very lackluster. There's zero incentive to do any of them beyond the very first time just to see what the scenario is about. The ONLY scenario I'd even considering running at this point is Arena of Annihilation because of the quest reward you get that I mentioned earlier, and even then I don't always need that. Scenarios might as well not exist in the game. They're a waste of time -- especially when I "should" be grinding reputations that actually net rewards... eventually. Maybe have scenarios start to provide reputation upon completion? Increase the drop rate of Motes of Harmony in scenarios?

Anyhow, what pushes even casual people to feel that reputation grind is necessary is because it takes ilvl to get into certain levels of content. The only way to get your ilvl up, without doing normal raids, is to grind reputations for an eternity, or buy crafted gear. You can't even craft your own gear most of the time since most of the recipes now require a reputation grind. Some professions are not providing a level playing field in terms of items you can craft. For example, inscription gets multiple ilvl 476 items it can craft that are learned directly from the inscription trainer (three boa staves, two boe off hands). Engineering can craft a 476 helmet that is learned directly from the trainer, as well. Other professions do not get the same perk of the easy ilvl boost these items provide. Even the alchemy trinket had been dumbed down to a ilvl 450 blue since the last expansion's ilvl 359 epic..

A lot of casual players don't care what their actual equipped ilvl is. They just want to boost it to get into lfr so they can try and actually get decent gear. If all professions expanded on their freely acquired recipes, it'd make it much easier for people to hit that special number and move on to content that is more engaging than repeating the same quests for weeks.

I know, people argue against that saying it's lame that people get in without the appropriate equipped ilvl, but equipped ilvl isn't everything. A good fire mage in a mix of 450 and 463 gear can easily be in the top 10, or even top 5, of a raid finder group's dps charts. A lot of that is about the player itself, and I'd assume that people that don't fit that category of being good with a low ilvl wouldn't know how to get their average ilvl up in the first place to get into lfr.

I wouldn't mind reputations as much if there were alternate ways to build those reputations (more daily dungeon quests for factions? tabards!), but as it is now, I doubt I will touch MoP reputations much more than I already have.

With all of that said, I am NOT a bad WoW player. I think the first tier of Cataclysm was some of the most technically difficult ever made, and my raid group (when we used to raid, now we are ALL "casual" players) cleared all the way up to Nefarion and Cho'gall wearing mostly heroic blues. I just don't have time to devote to something like that anymore and have no dedicated raiding group. Dailies feel like they are supposed to be the next step of progression after heroic dungeons, so people feel that is why they are required, and having to fly all over Pandaria to pick up daily quests and then complete those same quests, which you've already completed several times over already, isn't very fun. Time is my limiting factor, and I don't want to use all my spare time, aside from leveling, doing the same daily quests forever and a half. I was hoping the Firelands dailies would not return, but now that has essentially become every new faction in the game.

Working on your 4th and 5th 90s, and he OP has 9 level 90s!!! The expansion has only been out 6 weeks! Do you guys really wonder why Blizzard doesn't take your complaints seriously. You manage to play enough to level 5 characters to 90 in roughly 6 weeks then complain you don't have the time to be 'forced' to do dailies! You do realize this is an MMO right? They are designed to be enjoyed over a long period of time. You shouldn't be able to gear up 4-5 characters in a matter of 6 weeks. It should take you months (at least) to gear up and grind rep on that many characters. You might have some legitimacy if you were talking about one or two characters, but get real, it should take quite awhile for 4-5 characters, Sheesh!

Dude, 90% people don't want options. What people want is all the rewards in one place. If I told you the reward structure was:

Dungeons = Gear + valor
Scenarios = Rep + valor

90% of people would start complaining about Scenarios and how they don't like them.

They'd complain because that's just one option again.

No, you'd have dailies and scenarios now.
2 things:

1, to the devs:
a suggestion to consider dungeon specific rep. I.e., Shadopan Monastery gives Shadopan rep. No tabards, fits in lore-wise, people get a bit of a rep boost for doing the relevant dungeon. Consider a daily dungeon quest alongside the daily challenge dungeon quest for this rep as well (would be much easier to code in one quest turn in than restructure rep "drops" from mobs/bosses I would think). Could even give a VP boost cause we all know VP is going to be much harder to come by as dailies run out.

2, to the people frustrated about the RNG in gear drops from dungeons and LFR:
I cannot stress enough how important it is to group up with a consistent group of guildies for both dungeons and raids in order to have a satisfactory gear progression. When the same group of people go in to get loot, you have this amazing thing called sharing. And sometimes with a nice group you even have people pass each other things because it's only a slight upgrade for them, or because they know it has your BiS stats on it. The WoW experience is made significantly better when played with groups of friends, and *shock* the MMO experience is built around that playstyle.
11/12/2012 07:52 PMPosted by Firestyle
Even moving super fast I think 20 hours from 85-90 is pretty quick,

I don't know who said this, but it's really not. The people that really pushed to ding 90 immediately took less time than this when MoP launched and they had no rested XP. It's only going to get faster as people get to know the content better. Hell, I was dilly dallying because I didn't stand a chance at realm first as soon as I didn't spam instances until 87 and I still did it in like 16 or 17 hours.
I hate to say it but I have about reached the same point as well.

I've played the game since release and am really just not enjoying MoP.

The only thing I enjoy really is raiding but due to RL and the content changes, 5 of the 12 people from my raid group last year have quit the game making even filling our 10-man raid a challenge.

Beyond that, what to do what to do?

Well let's see, I can continue to grind the same dailies I have already done 1000 times and am so bored with them I want to vomit. Luckily, I am getting close to exalted across the board! Oh wait, I regularly play 5 toons so I'll be doing dailies until I'm dead if I wish to make the effort to get the to exalted...which I don't.

So then what can I do? LFR? LFR is utterly horrible. The loot system sucks, regardless what all the QQers say. It is (and was) hard enough to pull gear out of that place and now that one time in 10 you actually get lucky, much of the time it is something you don't even want. Same can be said for the world raids which are amazingly even worse than BH ever was.

Hmm ok then what? Grind the same heroics for the 1000th time to hope that the 1-2 items I still want drop? No thanks.

Pug Raid on alts? Not yet, people are too retarded to tackle the content as pugs much as in early Cata and TBC so that is off the table as well.

The simple truth is this, the game is not rewarding anymore.

I regret logging in these days and the time I wasted doing so.

I know, more QQ...but I'm just being honest
There is one kind of quest that people have seemed to completely omit from everything: the repeatable quest. Could that be a solution here?

Take the Netherwing faction back in TBC. You could do the dailies each day, or you could farm for Netherwing Eggs to give to a goblin on that island. Each egg you turned in gave you rep that you could keep getting beyond the dailies you were doing. The eggs were in specific spots, and there was (and still is) competition for those eggs. I can't remember how many it took to get from friendly to exalted using just the eggs (I think I read somewhere in the 150 range, but I can't be certain), but it was another way to gain rep with that faction. You knew where they were with the right add-on, and they were something you needed to work to collect.

Why not try that with the Golden Lotus rep grind. Increase the key drop rate somewhat of the mobs there, or add something that we can try to find that someone could use as much as they can get of what you collect?

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