Farewell WoW, MoP = RIP

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They'd complain because that's just one option again.

No, you'd have dailies and scenarios now.

In a perfect world, you would be able to choose whatever it is you love to do in game and it would count towards valor and reputation at pretty much an equal value per hour rate as each other.
Dude, 90% people don't want options. What people want is all the rewards in one place. If I told you the reward structure was:

Dungeons = Gear + valor
Scenarios = Rep + valor

90% of people would start complaining about Scenarios and how they don't like them.

That would be pretty cool since it would give a reason to run scenarios. Scenarios and dungeons aren't bad, they're just completely pointless to run this expansion after that first weekend of gearing up.

I'd really, really love the challenge modes to get the reputation added instead. They could use extra incentive, and they're a lot more fun than scenarios and heroics.
11/12/2012 08:13 PMPosted by Tomaxx
That was at the END of WOTLK, people wanted to see what Cata brought and then they promptly LEFT.

Yeah imagine that. People played when the game was alt friendly and it didn't take months to max out reps for gear upgrades and crafting recipes. Such a dastardly thing to be an alt friendly non super grindy Korean MMO.
zahrym what you said is offensive.

That's silly. The idea that I should have a placating "grin and bear it" approach to players on the forums -- as was discussed last week -- is what you should actually find offensive. And I'm only responding to this to make a quick point:

A lot of people have called my recent posts (and me personally) any number of negative things. Let me just say that I read a lot of great critical posts on the forums everyday -- there are some great ones in this thread. And we're constantly discussing the feedback with our developers. Just because I'm challenging a person's analysis of the game doesn't mean I'm not listening to them, or don't think they're making any good points.

If I can offer counterpoints to threads that will focus the debate on further specifics and details of a topic, that allows me to take more succinct feedback to the developers, often times including many of the great suggestions I see. ;)

Just let it be known there's a reason I started my post this way:

There is definitely legitimacy to your post, and we've been reading a lot of the feedback players have been sharing lately as we evaluate our endgame progression systems. Even as World of Warcraft evolves over each expansion, and as happy as we are with the experience we crafted for Mists of Pandaria, we always know we can do better.

Anyway! :)

Because you have locked away a portion of the progression path behind endless dailies.

But character progression isn't blocked entirely "behind endless dailies." You can get into Raid Finder without any reputation rewards. Sure, it's clearly more effective to be earning some steady reputation with the core factions (which is the point) while running other content, but that's less relevant when an argument is made in absolute statements, such as "forced," "mandatory," and "locked away."

I'm not naive and I know that if you invest more time into your character by doing dailies along side your group content, your rate of progression will be faster. And again, that's by design. But certainly we enjoy hearing feedback about the design and how things could be tweaked to improve the model.

For instance, we talked recently to the developers about an evolution on the idea of being able to champion a faction via a tabard. What we don't want to repeat is the design that let players max out every faction reputation just by wearing a tabard while doing other content. So instead of endlessly getting reputation for every dungeon, maybe you only get a bonus once a day. It doesn't allow you to skip dailies altogether, but you can at least pad your rep gains a little bit.

Another cool part about this idea is that we can probably make it work through the UI, rather than requiring you to wear a tabard you may not think matches your bracers (teehee). It could be as simple as making it so that you champion the faction you selected to show as your XP bar.

And since it's brought up a lot, I completely understand the existing concerns players have about earning Valor through other sources and being locked from spending it for reputation rewards. It's something we'll continue to talk about -- be precise and feel free to suggest improvements!

It's worth throwing out there that it really doesn't take many daily quests to hit Honored with Golden Lotus, and you can easily hit Honored with The Klaxxi before you even unlock their daily quests. So it doesn't take much to give you a bear minimum of two ilvl 458 blues to spend JP on, and two ilvl 489 epics to spend VP on. That's a pretty fair boon if you're climbing to ilvl 460.

Important! I want to make sure it's totally clear one last time. I'm not saying our model is perfect and your feedback is incorrect. I'm trying to offer counterpoints so we can all signal in on the root of some of the popular concerns within the community. Operative word: TRYING. :D

You can only obtain 1k valor per reset. If you aren't in a position that you had valor that carried over you aren't seeing those 2 ilvl 489 epics for a bit. I'm not agreeing that everyone should be showered in free epics the second they reach max level. I'm just saying it's not as easy as you make it seem in your post.

You guys spend a lot of time on your design of expansions and how you want everything to roll out. That's fine and you guys come up with a lot of good ideas along the way. You seem to be doing some behind the scenes stuff this time that could solve a major issue with mmo's once you iron out the bugs with CRZ. It's awesome stuff when you think about it.

Anyway things like the daily quests just make me wonder how long you guys actually intended to go with this. From looking at 5.1 it gives me the idea this entire expansion is gonna be a lot more dailies and more things hidden behind rep grinds when the next tier is available. I've yet to hear a player say they actually enjoy the mind numbing experience they cause even while they do them.

Raid finder you rarely get anything except 28g over and over again. You are forced to do dailies if you want to craft your own stuff or enchant your own items for much less than relying on d3 erm I mean the ah. If nobody did those grinds then you couldn't go to the ah either. So you are forced or whatever other adjective you don't like to describe it as exactly that.
11/12/2012 08:15 PMPosted by Rimar
Take the Netherwing faction back in TBC. You could do the dailies each day, or you could farm for Netherwing Eggs to give to a goblin on that island. Each egg you turned in gave you rep that you could keep getting beyond the dailies you were doing. The eggs were in specific spots, and there was (and still is) competition for those eggs.

Essentially, they do have that for several factions. There's eggs for cloud serpents ( I know, doesn't count because it doesn't have those epics everyone is demanding to have) but the golden lotus have keys, and klaxxi have shards.
A lot of what Zarhym and Blizz says makes sense to me: it's nice having dailies to break up time waiting in a queue for a raid or dungeon. However, I do think that it's a bit much for alts now due to the coupling of valor gear with rep. I don't think that 'double gating' the gear like this is the best method for slowing acquisition. While double dipping in Cata may have been an issue from Blizz perspective, doubling gating is equally troublesome from mine. There are enough gear slots not covered by JP/VP that Blizz could have set aside for rep gear while also offering the normal JP/VP gear like in prior expansions. It's much more of a pain to gear for LFR than I think it should be due to this.

Beyond that, I think certain reps like the Golden Lotus have wayyyyy too many quests to get to the last chain. Would be nice to choose which set I wanted to do every day rather than go in the same chain of three quest giver locations. Order of the Cloud serpent feels much more fulfilling, but I understand they all can't go quite that fast - a middle ground between GL and Order would be nice.


PS please look at some of the more annoying dailies and consider upgrading spawn rates as needed (looking at you kill 30 spirits for phase 1 GL).
11/12/2012 07:55 PMPosted by Zarhym
Do you take this to the Dev team? What I mean is do you collect the discontent and address it higher?

Absolutely! We chat with them via IM and email daily, we meet with them at least once a week to ask common questions from players, and we do a very in-depth global community report every week that breaks down all of the hot topics in the community and offers action items if applicable. Every community report is read by the game's lead designers, all the way up to Rob Pardo and Mike Morhaime.

Some of the topics we cover might not be as easy to openly discuss with the community, but rest assured that's because the necessary discussions and meetings are taking place to really dig into the hot topics/questions so we can form a more concrete agenda.

Being a very analytical person (engineering/technology background), Business evolves around making decisions that benefit the company financially. So if this is the case, why aren't dailies being addressed in-game as soon as possible for people that don't want to do endless amounts of dailies with several alts? Blizzard's business revolves around subscriptions, and in order to have subscriptions the company must listen to the community (reasonable opinions that benefit the game and community of course.) for those subscriptions to receive "x" profit for blizzard, we do not want to see the subscriptions go down like they did in Cataclysm.(subs went down drastically). So instead of counter-arguing and making excuses I don't understand why we don't have tabards for dailies, since a vast majority of players desire this addition. Yes, you say this is just an extra way of achieving valor gear and we don't have to be exalted to get the gear, but people are going to HAVE to do this in an mmorpg because if you don't take advantage of every way possible of getting gear, well, you're going to be behind the playerbase in gear wise, and when that happens end game pve will not be seen by those players who just don't do all these dailies that just boring and repeating every single day. So please, I want to hear your response, I usually don't post on the forums, but this issue is a trending topic, and I want my voice to be heard, so I hope you listen to the community to receive the subscriptions that you expect.
Hi. I have a lvl 90 Horde Rogue. I think the MoP expansion is phenomenal and immensely creative, not only on the creative graphic level, but also for the music, humor and videos it puts my toon into. I have been a successful working artist in my career and know a little bit of what I'm talking about.

I'm not particularly happy about what happened to Rogue powers and abilities in pvp but I'll put up with them for now and complain later if Blizz doesn't do something to at least give us some power to hold our own against Priests, Shamans, and Palys. When you hit them with everything you have and you don't see a tiny drop in health, even after keeping up the hits for several seconds then you begin to get dismayed.

Be that as it may. When MoP appeared I didn't want to rush through it. I saw tons of players leveling so fast, I knew they would quickly burn out. I wanted to totally experience this new land and do every quest and actually read them to show some respect for all of the hard work that went into this fabulous addition. I wanted to make Pandaria last.

Players grinding through the game can't be enjoying it. It would be like visiting the Louvre Museum in Paris and take off running through the hallways and rooms so I could claim I had seen everything there.

Best of all I like the philosophy of this new land, the theme of learning to slow down and take it easy in life. To take in the richness all around. This is something we road-raged Westerners often forget. We're always so eager to rush around grabbing everything, always pressed for time. Then when we have it all, we get bored and jaded.

I'm lucky to not feel the need to have all the best gear at once, or be the number one killer in battlegrounds. I complain from time to time true. But I'll stick around because I like the game's intricacies and I like most of the people that play this game. Sometimes I even like the nasty players who insult people, as long as they do it with humor.
This isnt some emo QQ thread- I just wanted to make this point and provide something constructive.

I get that dailies are optional blah blah. I come from the perspective (like many others) that the benefits of dailies outweigh the pain of doing them (especially at the beginning of a content cycle). We want things like rep gear and bonus rolls because it helps us play to our potential, which to a lot of people is worth putting up with daily after daily.

I also get that you have to work for things- we shouldn't be getting this sort of stuff for doing nothing.

But ultimately, we dont enjoy dailies. This is a game and we play to enjoy ourselves. Dailies are a awful chore that no looks forward to, and they cant wait till it's over. This isn't the sort of experience I want when I play a game.

To alleviate this, I think the benefits of dailies should be obtainable from other areas AS WELL AS from dailies. This aligns with Blizzard's design philosophy of giving the player 'choice'. Currently I don't think that that choice is really there. If I want to earn bonus rolls, I need to do dailies. If I want to spend VP, I have to do dailies. If I want certain enchanting patterns, I have to do dailies. I should be able to obtain the above from other means, since I don't like doing dailies.


1) Provide lesser charms for random scenarios, dungeons, LFR and PVP. Tune the provision such that if I wanted to spam these things to obtain my weekly required coins, I could do so.

2) De-couple rep requirements for spending VP. I have already earned my VP- I shouldn't then have to earn the right to spend it. Please remove this. This problem is made even worse on alts- having to grind reps more than once to spend VP on an alt (where I already have very limited time to play my alt) is very onerous, and not really practical (and certainly not enjoyable)

3) Develop some other way for us to grind rep other than through dailies. It would be great if I could get SOME rep from PVP/Dungeons/Raiding etc. Not saying bring back rep tabards, but SOME sort of system that allows me to obtain a modest amount of rep from stuff other than dailies would make the whole thing much easier to digest.

4) Somewhat unrelated, the VP cap buff isnt great as it takes a lot of effort to cap VP these days. I think the buff should provide value up to your highest current valor on any char e.g if my Paladin earns 500 VP, then my alts should earn 50% up to the point where they earn 500 VP, at which time they go back to earning normal VP. That way we aren't being encouraged to spam out everything on one char before moving over to our alts.

5) Make dailies easier. Yeah they aren't THAT bad, but crappy drop rates (for those stone worms) or spawn rates (for those books in Jade Temple) etc are just really, really frustrating. Taking the edge off them will make it less painful.

6) Increase rep provision. Not quite sure who came up with the numbers for GL rep, but doing three daily hubs only to earn such a small amount of rep is pretty harsh. Just increase the amount of rep we earn so that we don't have to do dailies for quite so long (if we chose to do them at all)

Ultimately, I think it's about Bliz Dev's revisiting their design principle of 'choice' and asking 'in what other choices can we give players to obtain these rewards that they are do eager for?'. Beyond that it's about looking at the experience of dailies and acknowledging that people really dont like the currently, and asking 'how can we make these more enjoyable?'.
Being a very analytical person (engineering/technology background), Business evolves around making decisions that benefit the company financially. So if this is the case, why aren't dailies being addressed in-game as soon as possible for people that don't want to do endless amounts of dailies with several alts? Blizzard's business revolves around subscriptions, and in order to have subscriptions the company must listen to the community

Only a small fraction of the player base even comes to the forums to speak their mind. It would be pretty unwise to base business decisions on the demands of a small number of customers.
The reasons mentioned in the OP (other than having 9 90s, i only have 2) are why i have stopped logging on. I have 6 weeks left on my AP and then i am gone. I have hardly logged on for a week already, and all i do is talk to guildies, the game has stopped being fun, so i am going to stop playing
Here's a suggestion:

1. Leave the reputation system and rewards as is.
2. Change tabards back to how they were in Cataclysm and have them reward rep for dungeon crawling.
3. Make tabards Bind On Account.

Since Pandaria faction tabards can only be purchased at Exalted, it makes us have to do the dailies and grind rep in order to get them. But once we're Exalted, we can buy the tabard and give them to our alts so that we don't have to repeat the long, tedious daily rep grind.

I believe this addresses what Blizzard is trying to accomplish in having people play through and get rewarded via Daily content while also addressing players' concerns regarding rep-grinding on alts.
Dailys are... in some aspects a pain in the !@#, for sure. Being "in the need" of logging for doing those "once again" dailys is very boring. Al though, sometimes people seens to not analyze the whole scenario.

People usualy say: " I don't have time to do those dailys ".
For real... i spend like 20min doing 1 faction dailys in my TANK spec. If you group up, it's VERY fast. If you count the time you spend in dungeons, with random people, it's very high. In that point, dailies are much faster.
I reached 90 and until today i haven't bought 1 single item from Justice. I bought rep itens and used than for a long time ( if still not using ), and besides i got GOLD + COINS ( for extra raid rolls ), all with dailys. I got mounts, achvs, and other vanity stuffs.

And talking about RAID PROGRESSION, you should seek more about what factions you "NEED" to get rep. First week we cleared mogu'shan full blues, crafts + 1 or 2 pvp gear (383)( cause we didn't have rep/valor to buy itens ), so those dailys didn't cause that impact. If you want gear, you can buy with gold, you can craft, you can farm it, you don't need to grind reputation. Reputation is a PLUS in your progression and helps you "burst" you gear, since after sometime you will change all that rep gear. I would say that my raid isn't better cause we don't have "enough" time to play the raid content as we would like to, not cause the game is not well developed.

People should be more worried about VALOR cap, for exemple, that when i wasn't being "strategic" for it I had to rush points on a single day ( what was very exaustive )... even though you have some ways to get it without bothering a lot, like doing at least 1 random per day, raids, weekly LFR, enough dailys to get your 80 coins each week. I'm doing progress each week and I took a long time to raise my reps ( cause i didn't want to make dailys my job ), and still didn't raise with some factions ( that won't give me rep "loots" ).

People should start doing stuffs for a reason, besides of just doing it. See what faction worth doing dailies, doing it when they feel like to do, instead of being a obligation. Having an "action plan" always helps you, even on WoW.

Dailys, yes we can. lol ^^

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