Farewell WoW, MoP = RIP

General Discussion
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11/12/2012 07:48 PMPosted by Zarhym
To answer your first two questions, the difference is there is a reward structure in place for dungeons, and a reward structure in place for reputations.

What about attaching rep rewards to challenge mode dungeons? They don't drop gear, so why not give rep?
11/12/2012 06:54 PMPosted by Zarhym
But character progression isn't blocked entirely "behind endless dailies."

Not entirely, no, but you lose a lot by not doing dailies, and you don't get any compensation for doing so. It's not we're choosing between different paths to same goal. We're being told there's one path to a major goal, and if we don't like it, tough.

Zar, do you realize how much of a reassurance it is to not be reliant on RNG on gear? I'm not being facetious; it's an honest question. Because I don't like RNG. Never have, never will. It makes the game infinitely more enjoyable when I can make measurable progress towards a guaranteed reward.

Now, maybe not everyone is as fixated on this style of play as I, but the point remains that having a source of gear that is not dependent on luck is incredibly valuable, and very much doubt there's any significant group of players that is actually okay with opting out of valor with no compensation.

11/12/2012 06:54 PMPosted by Zarhym
For instance, we talked recently to the developers about an evolution on the idea of being able to champion a faction via a tabard. What we don't want to repeat is the design that let players max out every faction reputation just by wearing a tabard while doing other content.

I actually sort of sympathize with this viewpoint. Reps did start to feel pretty meaningless in the last two expansions, and I don't blame you for wanting to move away from that.

The problem arises from the fact that you made reputation much more important at the same time as you made it much more labour-intensive to acquire. One or the other would have been fine. Both together makes for a brutal grind.

11/12/2012 06:54 PMPosted by Zarhym
So instead of endlessly getting reputation for every dungeon, maybe you only get a bonus once a day. It doesn't allow you to skip dailies altogether, but you can at least pad your rep gains a little bit.

This is not a solution. We don't want a way to make the daily rep grind a little quicker. We want a completely separate option. If I can't bring myself to do dailies, getting a tiny trickle of rep via dungeons doesn't help at all.

11/12/2012 06:54 PMPosted by Zarhym
It's something we'll continue to talk about -- be precise and feel free to suggest improvements!

Decouple valor requirements from rep rewards. It worked perfectly fine for two expansions, and there was absolutely no reason to change it. In all my time playing WoW, I have never, ever heard someone complain that the valor system made them enjoy the game less. The closest I've heard is a few people complaining that other "scrubs" are getting gear they don't deserve, but I don't think that's a legitimate complaint, and I very much doubt Blizzard does either. It doesn't matter if other people have nice gear, too; it doesn't hurt you.

The valor/emblem system of Wrath and Cata was one of the best things ever to happen to WoW. If, at the end of Cata, I was to make a list of things in WoW that needed improving, the valor system would have dead last.

I think the cosmetic rewards are enough to keep people running the dailies, albeit not as much as they are now. People are still doing Netherwing and Argent Tournament dailies, after all. Heck, you can even keep the current valor gear gated behind reps if you want. Maybe purchasable for gold, maybe still for valor. Just add new valor gear of the same ilevel that's not tied to rep. Dailies offer plenty even without them gating valor.

Maybe add another way to acquire charms, too. Scenarios?

I don't see it as sensible at all. It's raid level gear. It SHOULD take time and effort to get, as getting gear from raids takes time and effort.

I don't understand how grinding dozens of dungeons ceased to qualify as effort. And don't say it's because dungeons are faceroll. Of course they are, but dailies are the easiest content known to man.

You want full access to rep rewards and dungeon rewards without putting effort toward both.

I don't think this is really fair, or accurate. Valor is a dungeon and raid reward. It always has been. We're not asking for rep rewards and dungeon rewards without putting effort towards both. We're asking to be able to access our dungeon/raid rewards without being funneled into an unrelated form of content.

I don't think anyone has a problem with the mounts or cosmetic rewards for rep being gated the way they are. We just want a way to spend our valor without grinding a zillion dailies. It's really not a huge request.

You may not like daily quests. But that alone isn't justification for making daily quests irrelevant for those running group content. By running dungeons with tabards, you effectively got to double-dip in Cataclysm by gaining access to rep rewards, VP rewards, and dungeon drops. It was super convenient, and also left players with a system that didn't really reward you for doing more than the bare minimum of raiding and running seven dungeons each week.

I don't understand this argument at all. Excepting justice points, dailies currently award every single kind of PvE reward in the game, many of which can't be acquired any other way. This is considered fine. Dungeons only offer valor and some very mediocre gear, both of which can be acquired other ways, but yet adding rep to them would make them too rewarding or convenient? How on Earth do you get to that conclusion?

Why is it bad for dungeons to double-dip, but okay for dailies to quintuple dip? (Random number picked for maximum comedic effect.)

11/12/2012 08:31 PMPosted by Stabmartha
I think the reverse is true for a lot of players. The multi-dipping nature of dailies can pull players from doing other content that they may enjoy into the feeling that there are so many parallel rewards from dailies that they just have to do them.

Exactly. I now feel like I'm wasting my time if I do anything but dailies. Again, it's rep or die.
11/12/2012 07:56 PMPosted by Vaedrin

So basically that means that blizzard made a mistake in 2 expansions. Since in Wrath, it was also a tabard system... I see.

Go figure, WoW was in the height of its popularity with the tabard system. Clearly something that has to be replaced with a manditory daily grind.

if thats the case why did 2 million people quit in cataclysm?
cap soon
11/12/2012 08:31 PMPosted by Zarhym
Zarhym, I get your point about the old tabard model. I do. But there's got to be a happy medium here. I ran dailys a lot during Cata, and WotLK on multiple characters. They were quick, easy, tasks, where each hub took no more than 30 minutes. Completely solo. In fresh 80/85's in quest greens from 2 or 3 leveling zones back. I'd run them on multiple characters in the same day even.

I personally agree about needing to strike a better balance, happy medium, or some form of compromise (beyond the Revered bonus in 5.1).

MoP dailys on the other hand are much, much more difficult, tedious and frustrating. Hence, for most of us casual players, they are too time consuming. Golden Lotus? Takes me an hour to do them. Klaxxi? Another hour. Shado-Pan? Haven't even unlocked those yet. Or August Celestials for that matter.

Doubling the rep gains from dailys is a step in the right direction, but it doesn't fix the problems I mentioned above with the MoP dailys. The mobs hit to hard, have too much life and are too packed in. The quests themselves simply aren't enjoyable for this reason. Whatever happened to that molten front model you said you were going to stick with for dailys? The dailys we have now are nothing like those.

It's difficult to tackle the "fun" factor compared to previous daily hubs. That's very subjective and I, in fact, disagree with you on a personal level. :o

But comparing the new daily quests to the Molten Front, in terms of difficulty, isn't totally fair. When we said we wanted to stick to that model, we meant allowing the quest hubs to have some story progression for each character over time, and having a large pool of daily quests to really randomize which ones you get each day.

I remember doing Tol Barad dailies when I first hit 85. Those were pretty brutal until I geared up. When I was first doing Golden Lotus it was kind of rough too. But by ilvl 450 they were noticeably much easier, and I could complete them much faster. You might be forgetting how good your gear was when you were doing Molten Front dailies.
I agree with the Tol Barad statement, but with Molten Front they randomized and we had a choice in dailies which gave us a fun factor, so we could do x dailies on main toon "y" dailies on this toon.. So I also disagree with the point he/she made about difficulty of dailies, but I still stand my ground on my argument.

First off I think Monk the OP is far off. By saying if Blizz doesn't change things 'many more will follow suit' is a lie. People were leaving pre-MoP because there was nothing to do. So I highly doubt they'll leave because there's too much to do.

Having too much to do is not why people will quit way to miss the point
11/11/2012 04:06 PMPosted by Monk
I leveled nine classes to 90

11/11/2012 04:06 PMPosted by Monk
going through the same content over and over wasn't so bad


Aren't dailies just "going through the same content over and over" too?

After having leveled nine classes to 90, I don't think you have much steam for anything else. That's where your problem lies.
I don't feel like I have to do dailies. I do them by choice.

I don't feel like the bonus rolls are a bad incentive; it's free gold if I don't win any gear (who doesn't like free gold?) and every now and then it's a free piece of gear.

Just my experience. Your mileage may vary.
Eyes glazed over and stopped reading about page 7....

The cata xpac was when we all grew our army of alts. Show me anyone who had 8 60s in vanilla and id be amazed. Most people had and alt or two by BC yea.... but the army of max level toons filling your screen for log in? That was all Cata.

It was a side effect of being bored with logging in friday/saturday to raid and being done for the week. Just out of boredom I pumped 7 epicd alts out by the end of cata and was STILL logging out after the sat raid and not logging in again till the next Friday.

This xpac has increased the amount of things to do. I have leveled only ONE toon to 90. When I log in to play I don’t look at my main and say "well, nothing to do on him... who should I log onto?" By playing only one toon, I don’t feel like I am being pressured to do chores and work. Quite the opposite, there is now motivation to play my main when I get a chance to log in.

Sure, there is a list of things to do longer than the play time I have to spend. I see that as a good thing, and am actually presently surprised to find I am enjoying this xpac so far.

IMO OP (and anyone still in the army of alts mind set) has failed to take into perspective how long it took to build that army (over a year in an xpac that actually favored the process). This lack of perspective will cause players massive burn out if they actually attempt to level and gear every alt they had in cata for this xpac's first tier.
I don't get this argument at all. It's all over the place. If you don't enjoy doing dailies, why are you doing them?!

You can raid without the rep gear... Rep gear and Raid gear are the same item level. If you want to get 489 gear and don't like dailies, get into a raiding guild. Yes, you will probably wipe a few times. Having a few pieces of rep gear isn't going to dramatically increase your chance of downing a boss.

Dailies are an optional part of the game. Everything is optional. If you want to level a hunter to 38 and run around Thunder Bluff wearing cloth intellect gear, you can do that. It's not mandatory to do anything.

Dailies are not my cup of tea. I used to do them sometimes, or once a week, and at times I would do them everyday. I may work on getting the Klaxxi mount sometime though. I'm not interested in that aspect of the game atm. And there's nothing wrong with that.

I can understand the OP being burned out after leveling NINE chars to level 90 and trying to do the dailies on them. That's intense.

I can understand if you want your toons to be as powerful as possible. You may want the best gear, maxed professions, lots of achievements, tons of mounts, etc. You can't have it all instantly or there would be no point. Those things will come in time, learn to appreciate the little things you can do.

I'll tell you why Guns.

I leveled my DK tank to 90 as my second alt. I've been trying everything to gear her up without having to grind dailies and it just isn't happening.

I've run about 50 heroics and am getting close to across-the-board heroic gear, apart from a few slots that will never drop like the ONE pair of tanking plate pants in all of MoP (good one Blizz).

I've cleared LFR 3 weeks in a row without a single drop. I can't qualify for the higher lvl LFR so I'm stuck with the first 6. I've killed Sha each week and no drops from that either (only the quest reward boots...my only epic).

I've tried pugging MoV normal and have yet to find a group that can get past the first boss on my under-populated server.

So what are my options? I've spent countless hours doing dailies and grinding gear for this toon, my main. I don't have the time to do the same on my DK, or my sham I want to finish leveling but that has been so slow due to the first two. Then my hunter and my druid and my warr who I would love to level as well but REALLY haven't been able to level them to lack of time.

So....why play?

The game used to still be fun playing 10-12 hours a week like I do. Now, I do it out of obligation which is just sad...
I completely understand that we're choosing to do dailies for the VP items, along with grinding world bosses and LFR in order to be as geared as possible for raiding progression. I don't agree that only those competing for World/Server firsts are the only ones that feel it necessary to do that. I have a personal feeling of wanting to be at my best, even when playing casually. I choose to run things in order to get that feeling, but even though I mostly feel its worth the hassle, it is burning me out quickly. Especially when I factor in how I like to playing a few alts on the side instead of just playing only the one.

I personally do not agree that we should have to run the same exact content, in the same exact way on every single alt we wish to play with at max level. I personally believe it's too high a time commitment for only wanting to play multiple characters, even on a casual level. If you would allow players that complete your content fully on one tune to not have to fully grind out every single thing on other characters, they'd be more likely to continuously play.

I know there is a need to blend as much of the player base together as possible to make queues run as smooth as possible, but I I would think that removing gear that is raid quality from something that requires running things on a daily basis for a couple weeks would help alleviate some of that dread. People that raid should be doing dungeons/LFR/World bosses for raid quality gear and a system for giving players that gear should be done through those means. Those that want pets/mounts/transmog gear should have content, such as dailies, that requires continuous grinding for an extended period of time in order to earn those rewards. Individuals that want to PvP should have a system that they can grind in order to obtain their rewards. They should be able to use their rewards, such as Honor, on other things such as crafting materials in order to dump those unused currencies as a reward for continuing to queue into the system and play.

Something along those lines would give players in each individual aspect of the game to earn the rewards they want, in the way they want. You could make a few specific rewards, such as mounts, be only available for those that participate in that aspect to obtain. It would also give encouragement for those that have the time later on to participate in those other aspects, even if only in small amounts.

I could go into greater detail about what I think would work, but I doubt a Dev would reply to this and want to hear more and I've typed way too much into this post for most people to be interested in reading it. So, I'll leave it here. ^^
11/12/2012 08:34 PMPosted by Instìnctz
Go figure, WoW was in the height of its popularity with the tabard system. Clearly something that has to be replaced with a manditory daily grind.

you act like this is the reason it was at its peak: Wrath ended strongly when it had its height, and after 4.1 the subscribe rate dropped immensely.
11/12/2012 08:32 PMPosted by Vileorc
I cheered in joy when they changed that in Wrath. Do wish it were here again.

This too. Being able to cap in my own pace was nice. I thought GC once said he wanted people to actually not have to log on everyday and yet it seem like he has backtracked on it.
It is sad to see so many posts on here about a lot of people not having fun anymore.

Its also sad to see friends quit due to world of dailiescraft.

I have about 7 more friends on my server that are all considering leaving because of this and that will be sad.

Blizzard, this post is from their mouths and mine and I shall repeat it again.

All playstyles should be able to get rep at an EQUAL rate in different ways, not just the dailies lovers.
Because of a lack of content being brought out..? Remember ds for 9 months? We didn't have complaints on dailies in the forums in Cata. I don't understand WHY WHY WHY... Blizz can't implement tabards and make everyone happy, I'm also considering quitting since my sub runs out in 3 days. Instead of arguing with the community listen to it.
11/12/2012 08:23 PMPosted by Çâthülü
Even though we are posting long posts I hope blizzard reads this, and we aren't just wasting our time.

There's a reason that it's 8:45 p.m. here, and I'm still at work and STARVING. ;p

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