Why are dungeons so easy now?

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Says dungeons are easy.

Hasn't stepped foot in a challenge dungeon.


And again, as per my other post - Challenge Modes are a great idea, I'm looking forward to trying them, BUT, that isn't the same thing. Challenge Modes are for vanity items and "points" only. They aren't a way to gear your character up, and what I'm saying is that the heroics that give you gear to get into raiding SHOULD at least be difficult enough to introduce you to what it's like in a raid. Aka, you can't stand in the fire, round everything up, get your healer locked out of the encounter, and still win.

This is why we have a player-base with so many people complaining about the difficulty of raids (even LFR for god sake!) - they get set up for failure instead of set up for success. It's like making a Mario game with the ever-present pits filled in and no enemies running around. Can you run and jump? OH GOOD YOU PASS THE LEVEL! Then making Bowser breathe fire, the floor collapse, you go from 3 hits to 1-hit KO, and you're on a timer. Then be surprised when people can't finish.
The ability to get in quickly and easily by being automatically matched with other players has a ton of great benefits, including just being able to get in and do dungeons without needing to spend time coordinating a group or spamming chat channels. Plus it has the whole Set It and Forget It benefit of being able to go do stuff while you're in queue. But the ease of entry has a downside in that tolerance goes down, and the fact of a random group is a lack of consistency from run to run. Random players being matched together injects a ton of inconsistency, but if it goes bad you can just jump back into queue and are probably not much worse for the wear.

Cataclysm dungeons tended to require things like CC, and in general a fairly in-sync and coordinated group to be consistently successful (at least until enough people outgeared them). The problem comes when matching random players together that there is no consistency. While you may go in with a group and all learn something, that a specific mob needs to be CC'd, or a certain boss behavior to avoid a wipe, those lessons are more than likely out the window with the next group you're matched with. While you may have some knowledge, maybe no one else does, and most people don't want to spend every run waiting for everyone else to learn all those same lessons. That can just be a frustrating experience. So instead of trying to force a group of strangers to be so heavily coordinated (maybe even having to jump into voice chat) just to complete the first steps of progression, we reduce the complexity to a point where the random groups that are being put together can most of the time be successful without needing to be hyper-organized or educated on each pull. Instead, that organization is far more important for the organized content where random people aren't matched together: normal and Heroic raids.

Of course there are players that want every piece of content to be very challenging, even going so far as wanting hard questing and daily quests, but the breadth of types of people playing World of Warcraft mean that we need to have a wide variety of content, and a wide variety of difficulty, to try to appeal to a variety of tastes. Obviously it's not an exact science, as you'll see from expansion to expansion, or even patch to patch, we may change difficulty to suit what we believe will achieve the best results for the people attempting that content.
with dungeon difficulty now, bot tanks can successfully tank, ret paladins can successfully tank, demo warlocks can successfully tank... hell even I've tanked as a shadowpriest when a tank AFKed once >.>

So why can't Demo Warlocks join as a tank?
Its all about what gear you have.
The only heroics that ever required any skill were the cata Troll heroics before everyone out-geared them. Even then, one wrong pull/taunt/stray pet could wipe the best group.
Yeah. I like the new dungeon difficulty. Difficulty has its place but not when:

1) Your encouraged to do it everyday - hence it becomes a routine.

2) Groups do not have the tolerance to accept mistakes because its a routine.

3) Even the smallest of mistakes wipe a group.

4) Groups do not want to work together.

and mostly:

5) Even making the smallest mistake (not interrupting a single half second cast that's cast more frequently then I can kick.. ie: Force Chock.. I had to glyph kick for gods sake because I couldn't interrupt certain bosses fast enough!) and wiping the group during a regular dungeon routine causes everyone to fly off the handle and nerd rage, becoming unglued and initiating vote kicks faster then the tank will afk out.

In other words: People are dicks and couldn't handle themselves in higher difficulty dungeons. This is why they HAVE to be easier now. I personally prefer the cata difficulty myself but not when every run was a gong show because Joe Brown did 14.5k dps instead of 15k, or that 1 time I pulled a scout by accident. Mistakes happen. They SHOULD happen. They USED to happen ALL the time in vanilla and BC... I've seen/done some horrible things all those years ago and no one every became unglued. But now a days? God forbid you make a single mistake on any fight. God forbid you don't actually know the entire fight by heart before you attempt it. For those of you who are like: "blah blah blah strats, blah blah blah..." let me ask you... For any other game, have you ever read the strategy guide BEFORE you played it so you know how to do everything before you so much as attempt to play it? Even just once?

What shouldn't happen is all the nerd rage afterwards.
I sure don't miss spending 2 hours spamming trade chat to get a group together for a dungeon, though I did like the CC requirements from the BC heroics, made things more interesting. Didn't play much of the Cata dungeons.
All content, be it solo, 5man, or raid has maintained a pretty steady difficulty level in all expansions. The only thing that changes is label.

You want cata style diffculty? Do gold challenge modes.
Heroic modes now serve the same purpose as old 5man normals.
I have not done tons of dungeons but all the ones I have are pretty easy. Can eat a sandwich and play through at the same time. you die once or twice and figure out what to do then smoke that dungeon every time thereafter.

Do people even die outside of dungeons anymore?
If asked, I don't think more than a couple players on this thread would say they are average or below... but the reality is most of us are just that. The dungeons have been watered down for us -- this threads participants.
Yeah. I like the new dungeon difficulty. Difficulty has its place but not when:

1) Your encouraged to do it everyday - hence it becomes a routine.

2) Groups do not have the tolerance to accept mistakes because its a routine.

3) Even the smallest of mistakes wipe a group.

4) Groups do not want to work together.

and mostly:

5) Even making the smallest mistake (not interrupting a single half second cast that's cast more frequently then I can kick.. ie: Force Chock.. I had to glyph kick for gods sake because I couldn't interrupt certain bosses fast enough!) and wiping the group during a regular dungeon routine causes everyone to fly off the handle and nerd rage, becoming unglued and initiating vote kicks faster then the tank will afk out.

In other words: People are dicks and couldn't handle themselves in higher difficulty dungeons. This is why they HAVE to be easier now. I personally prefer the cata difficulty myself but not when every run was a gong show because Joe Brown did 14.5k dps instead of 15k, or that 1 time I pulled a scout by accident. Mistakes happen. They SHOULD happen. They USED to happen ALL the time in vanilla and BC... I've seen/done some horrible things all those years ago and no one every became unglued. But now a days? God forbid you make a single mistake on any fight. God forbid you don't actually know the entire fight by heart before you attempt it. For those of you who are like: "blah blah blah strats, blah blah blah..." let me ask you... For any other game, have you ever read the strategy guide BEFORE you played it so you know how to do everything before you so much as attempt to play it? Even just once?

What shouldn't happen is all the nerd rage afterwards.


:) Love it
11/06/2012 02:11 PMPosted by Loans
If asked, I don't think more than a couple players on this thread would say they are average or below... but the reality is most of us are just that. The dungeons have been watered down for us -- this threads participants.

This is going to sound arrogant but: No.

The thing is even average people can do stuff. The true dividing factor (like Bashiok alluded to) is whether or not one cares about improving enough to deal with failing and improving. Many times with a lot of failing to learn.


You're right. That sounded arrogant.
11/06/2012 01:33 PMPosted by Bashiok
we reduce the complexity to a point where the random groups that are being put together can most of the time be successful without needing to be hyper-organized or educated on each pull.

Most of my groups was successful as a solo queue healer with Cata launch heroics and ZA/ZG prenerf. Or do you mean most by 99% while dragging two AFK dps along? Random queue is random and when the LFD system system first game out, it was the CM/developers that said if you cannot handle the risk of failure in a random queue system, then form your own group. To also note I did not once see a group use voice chat and most groups was not highly coordinated/synchronized and a lot of mistakes have been made that groups recovered from without out gearing the content.

Perhaps I got lucky, just in my experience most of the failed groups was from disruptive players and these players was in the minority, so from my perspective the game is getting designed around the minority so that they dont disrupt the enjoyment "majority."

11/06/2012 01:33 PMPosted by Bashiok
Obviously it's not an exact science, as you'll see from expansion to expansion, or even patch to patch, we may change difficulty to suit what we believe will achieve the best results for the people attempting that content.

So no word yet on WotLK difficulty heroics at the moment then? Kind of boring when about half the fights I just go kitty mode while the tanks self heal and I toss the occasional WG or rejuve and this was back in greens. WotLK heroics was not that easy.
11/06/2012 12:57 PMPosted by Loans
trash mobs used to one shot anyone who wasnt a tank.

Ah how I miss that. Its not like players have to watch their threat anymore. Even a tank from BC that couldnt out threat a player in greens, can do such against a player in full epics now.
I think the difficulty is about right. My pugs have wiped often enough to be content.
Any dungeon I have been in, using the LFG system, is the exact same, tank runs in, DPS face-roll AOE abilities, rinse and repeat. Most bosses are not much better, the majority seeming to be a combination of not standing in puddles and the tank keeping the mob facing away from the group. With the current state of things you might as well throw away all single target abilities and CC, they are never used.

Now, if I understand correctly, things are more challenging in non-LFR raids, but there is no reason that 5-mans should not be a challenge too. Yes wipes suck, but that doesn't mean you should be able to complete an instance by smashing your forehead into your keyboard.


The thing is, people say this...
... but when Blizzard listened, we got the original Cataclysm dungeons and the troll heroics, and the resulting tears of pain on both sides of the river were pretty much non-stop until the much easier HoT dungeons finally came out.

Yes, challenge is fun - when we're playing with friends, guild mates, people we can rely on to cc the healers or not break cc as soon as it's cast, or at the very least we know when we let them into our group that we'll have to carry them and we're ok with that because they're a friend.

However, if we learned nothing else from Cataclysm, what we all should have learned is that challenge is game-destroyingly NOT fun when you're stuck with 4-24 strangers, who can't be relied on to do or know anything and who may, for various reasons and in various ways, very well suck the fun out of the next hour of your life.

This is why we have easy dungeons, and why I personally am grateful for it.

Just being IN a pug is enough of a challenge, without the dungeon adding anything to it.

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