why destroyed by challenge mode 1st pull?

General Discussion
Are the mobs a higher level, have more stats, or made to do more damage than heroics?

I can walk into Mogu'shan Palace heroic dungeon and pull that 1st pack by the doorway and the 2 patrolling mobs in the center and fight all those mobs at once without sweating the healer.

But I tried challenge mode, keeping up all my active mitigation as usual, and the mobs destroyed me. We couldn't clear the trash to get to the first boss.

My ilvl is 460. The Challenge Modes scale down to 463, so are we dying because I'm not in all epic gear that gets scaled down? Will we need to CC 2 or 3 mobs and only fight maybe 2 mobs at the same time?
Apparently some CC is a must. Wouldnt know for sure though, havent ever tried one. Doesnt seem worth the effort.
11/08/2012 10:41 AMPosted by Rinzao
Are the mobs a higher level, have more stats, or made to do more damage than heroics?


Yes

My ilvl is 460. The Challenge Modes scale down to 463, so are we dying because I'm not in all epic gear that gets scaled down? Will we need to CC 2 or 3 mobs and only fight maybe 2 mobs at the same time?


Challenge mode scales gear down, I've heard nothing about it scaling gear up. I think you're under geared. Also, you'll need to use CC and other creative means to clear this content. It's supposed to be hard.
OP, you literally just made my day. Wow, thank you so much!

"Challenge moder r hard? whyyyyy?"

Amazing, just ... amazing. Thanks, I needed that XD
CC is VERY important in challenge modes. So is regular use of cooldowns. By what I've witnessed, the bosses are easier than the trash.
Your gear is scaled down to 463 so you want all of your gear to be at least 463. Also CC helps.
I've noticed that the mobs in heroic dungeons are usually level 90 or 91's, not always elite, and the bosses are 92 (so you don't even need hit cap to succeed at heroics).

In challenges most of the regular mobs are 92 elites, and all bosses are Skull/93. They all have a ton more health and hit way harder. You will need to be hit/exp capped to have success in Challenge mode.

11/08/2012 10:41 AMPosted by Rinzao
Will we need to CC 2 or 3 mobs and only fight maybe 2 mobs at the same time?


Heavy use of CC and Stuns are pretty much required for Challenge modes.

A big grats to anyone who has even been able to finish one of them on Bronze and a huge grats to all you "Undaunted" or better folks. I really hope that my guild can put together a group soon that can actually do these.
Is this the beginning of the calls to nerf challenge modes? I know OP didn't ask for a nerf directly, but it seems a slippery slope...
The scaling down is slot by slot, so your 470 ring is downgraded to 463. I didn't know this my first time through, so figure I'll tell you in case you didn't know.

Yes, challenge mode trash is a ton harder than heroics. I do recommend to CC as many mobs as possible for your first pull, and slowly test the waters as you're working through that first run. By the end, you'll be surprised how much better your entire group has gotten. Just aim for a learning experience instead of trying to get gold/silver/bronze. Once we started taking breaks and everything in our run, it went a lot smoother. I think people just needed to relax a little so they'd fall back on their instincts.
bring a DK for remorseless winter. gg challenge moads
Thank you for quick replies!

I know they're supposed to be hard and challenging. Did not realize the mobs got bigger and harder than heroic level.
All he was asking was for a WHY they seemed to hit so much harder... No reason for the crass and rude responses, guys. o.O

Anywho, yes, OP, like everybody else that bothered to respond to your question said, they hit harder, are a higher level, and have more help. I highly encourage you to have every single person in your party in Vent (or a similar program) so that you can accurately plan cds ahead of time.

The best way to get through a challenge mode is AOE stuns. Every class now has a talent point that allows for this. The Monk ability is in Tier 4, I believe? The Leg sweep. I also highly recommend that every person in your party also grab their AOE Heal ability, as most classes have one. Yours is in Tier 2, Chi Blast, perhaps? Either way, by rotating these cds, it not alone helps with survivability, but also ensures that people are less likely to die.

The stuns are the #1, though. The less amount of time that they have to hit you, the better. So, for instance, you pull the entire group, you hit your AOE stun - 5 seconds later, they start hitting you again, you pop your mitigation, 2 seconds before it drops off, it's now DPS1's turn to pop his AOE stun. Then DPS2... and so on, so forth. At the same time, you're also rotating the healing cds.

You also might find yourself actually doing a better job with a Disc Priest or a Monk Healer, mostly because they do damage to heal. The more damage going out, the faster things are dying. That's why so many Gold holders actually did NOT bring a healer to their Challenge Mode runs. The extra dps was just too important.
I forgot to mention that many mobs have abilities they don't have in Heroic as well. Like we attempted Scarlet Monastery (the one that's Graveyard and Cathedral) and the ghosts beside the first boss get a 1000% damage increase that also slows them. Literally I had to run in, get aggro with a Thunderclap, then Shockwave them and GTFO until the ranged killed them.

Don't even get me started on the Bunny Gauntlet.
Them challenge armor sets don't come for free.

You don't only need to be extra carefull with what you pull, you have to be super efficient about it.
Thank you for quick replies!

I know they're supposed to be hard and challenging. Did not realize the mobs got bigger and harder than heroic level.


They dont. Your gear gets scaled down.

So if you're in a Heroic that has a required iLv of 440 and your iLv is 463, then your gear gets scaled down to 440.

So it is impossible to overgear a Challenge Mode dungeon. You could have full Heroic Raid Epics(iLv506 or something) and it wont matter because in that dungeon, you have iLv440 gear.
11/08/2012 11:04 AMPosted by Dvorn
So if you're in a Heroic that has a required iLv of 440 and your iLv is 463, then your gear gets scaled down to 440.


Wrong. All gear gets scaled down to 463, but if you have items with lower level, they don't get scaled up. Not only that, set bonus are disactivated, as well as raiding trinket effects.

The most efficient way to run challenge modes is with 463 iLevel pieces, properly enchanted and reforged, since you need less hit and expertise than what you usually carry on your raiding gear.
You are probably doing something wrong, as Stormstout Brewery Challenge Mode is soloable. I'm just saying, if one of the more difficult challenge modes is soloable, then you should be able to get past the first trash pack in a different challenge mode dungeon.

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