Sick of Blizz Lies about hearing feedback

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I remember when I had my first beer Librily
11/14/2012 01:10 PMPosted by Abluething
You can't get into LFR unless you have the ilvl. you can't get teh ilvl unless you get lucky in MV and Sha OR YOU DO DAILIES.


Or you could also purchase or craft your own 476 epics. Oh, and there is PvP gear available that is the same ilvl as the top tier of LFR gear that is now perfectly acceptable. Also, the holiday bosses, as was mentioned, dropped perfectly fine 470 items that you could've farmed.
@Lyddia: That's not helpful or funny. We pay money to play this game. We put lots of time and effort into it and Blizzard gets to make lots of money off of it. There's nothing wrong with expecting good service and making complaints and suggestions. I'm a little passionate about it at times sure but I'm not exactly running around my house fuming about it. That whole phrase "it's a game" doesn't inherently mean anything anyways. To the people that work at Blizzard it's more than just a game, it's their job. To many of the players it's a vehicle to social interaction. I connect with friends and make new ones thanks to WoW. If players aren't passionate about their games they may as well just be playing solitaire all day. Go troll somewhere more constructively please.

@Draug: Most of us already know all that. The OP of the thread certainly seems to. While I appreciate the attempt to be helpful it just isn't that simple. In particular I'd like to respond to a couple of the points you made:

1. We aren't asking for instant content. We're asking for swift acknowledgment of problems and reasonably fast acknowledgement that there are plans to fix those problems. Also many things can be changed by hotfixes that aren't. Many other things should be changed in the next patch but are instead not done for entire expansions or longer. Often the biggest delay is not in actually fixing something but in simply realizing it needs fixing and agreeing on the fix. We understand the game is complimented. Being conscience of unintended consequences is important. The big issue in this thread is communication.

6. I didn't read every page of this thread but I read quite a few and didn't see anyone doing that.
Posted by Abluething
You can't get into LFR unless you have the ilvl. you can't get teh ilvl unless you get lucky in MV and Sha OR YOU DO DAILIES.

Or you could also purchase or craft your own 476 epics. Oh, and there is PvP gear available that is the same ilvl as the top tier of LFR gear that is now perfectly acceptable. Also, the holiday bosses, as was mentioned, dropped perfectly fine 470 items that you could've farmed.


The ilvl required for some of the LFR is actually so high that even with all of those alternatives to valor gear it is difficult to get a high enough ilvl to do it. But more importantly is what I mentioned in my 1st post in this thread. People need valor gear to help them do regular raiding.
Blizzard: You don't need valor gear to progress, and you don't need to do dailies to get valor.

Me: Well cool, but what do we spend valor on?

Blizzard: You spend them on valor gear.

Me: Well cool, but I can't spend them right now. I don't have the reputation needed.

Blizzard: Well you have to do dailies to unlock the reputation.

Me: Wait what?


You spend the valor to upgrade item level on your gear, starting in patch 5.1.
Although it's unfortunate that upgrades didn't make launch, they've been talking about them since beta.

Thankfully, you won't be hitting valor cap before then.
11/14/2012 02:59 PMPosted by Sherbear
You can't get into LFR unless you have the ilvl. you can't get teh ilvl unless you get lucky in MV and Sha OR YOU DO DAILIES.


This is blatantly false.

Anyone that has been 90 for weeks on end now has already...
Run heroic dungeons for gear.
Run Sha for the boots... no excuse to not have these.
Quested on their way to 90 and become honored with Klaxxi and Shado Pan opening up valor pieces.
Crafted and/or purchased gear and valor pieces.
Slayed the Holiday bosses for the ring and trinket.

That's a hell of a lot of gear for never having to do one single daily quest and shockingly... it most certainly will enable you to enter LFR or MV for that matter. Even if you missed out on the holiday bosses, you'd still have the gear to get into LFR.


Don't bother. They'd rather whine and play the victim then actually do something productive.
But QFT.
11/13/2012 10:35 AMPosted by Daxxarri
or the upcoming changes to the way that Pandaria faction reputation is gained by alternate characters on an account.


Not a swing at the blue, but the wording for this is wrong. People asked for alternate ways to gain rep on characters. I know in 5.1 how the rep changes are going to work and personaly am fine with it, even if it was left this way. But that is just simply not what people asked for. Unless this is a meet them half way kind of thing.
Posted by Abluething
You can't get into LFR unless you have the ilvl. you can't get teh ilvl unless you get lucky in MV and Sha OR YOU DO DAILIES.

Or you could also purchase or craft your own 476 epics. Oh, and there is PvP gear available that is the same ilvl as the top tier of LFR gear that is now perfectly acceptable. Also, the holiday bosses, as was mentioned, dropped perfectly fine 470 items that you could've farmed.


The ilvl required for some of the LFR is actually so high that even with all of those alternatives to valor gear it is difficult to get a high enough ilvl to do it. But more importantly is what I mentioned in my 1st post in this thread. People need valor gear to help them do regular raiding.


LFR requires 460.
Heroics drop 463.
Many other options listed by Sherbear can get you > 470 items.
If you need the crutch of high level gear to get you through intro raids, there's also LFR.

No excuse, really.
1. We aren't asking for instant content. We're asking for swift acknowledgment of problems and reasonably fast acknowledgement that there are plans to fix those problems. Also many things can be changed by hotfixes that aren't. Many other things should be changed in the next patch but are instead not done for entire expansions or longer. Often the biggest delay is not in actually fixing something but in simply realizing it needs fixing and agreeing on the fix. We understand the game is complimented. Being conscience of unintended consequences is important. The big issue in this thread is communication.

6. I didn't read every page of this thread but I read quite a few and didn't see anyone doing that.


I think you missed the major point of #1.

The point was that Blizzard knows people are unhappy. They are working on ways to fix it. Sometimes those fixes take a while to invent because you actually think of how to do them, invent a system to do it, or wait for another system being invented to be able to work in conjunction.

This is a Business and Blizzard isn't going to go out announcing their plans about what they are thinking to the players, because that would also be announcing their intentions to their competitors. That is simply you do not do in the world of business.

Blizzard has made their feelings clear on several issues, and we know changes are coming to them. How exactly they will improve the system is yet to be seen, but we know they are thinking of ways and working on it.

As for why not just fix stuff with hot fixes and more frequent patches? Because the game is large. Trying to hotfix a major problem/issue could cause a major bug which would result in a roll back and unhappy consumers.

More frequent patching isn't an answer because a programmer would have to program the patch, and people would have to beta test the game to make sure something major didn't get screwed up. This ties up company resources which is why many issues are simply rolled into one single patch and fixed at once. Which is also more convenient for the consumer as well.
What I read of blue posts/the forum community is mostly only what I see on MMO-Champ, which is a shame because it does portray all people posting on the forums in a negative light when there is clearly a lot of very valid posts defending blizzard etc.

The question I have is, are dailies fun? Do people log in to do dailies? I am not and have never been a fan of dailies, right from BC. Regardless they are in and I CHOOSE to do them so that I'm an equal contributor to my raid group (not on the character logged on the forums but my Druid Nasilemakk). I get that it's a choice. I do it. No problem. What I don't get though is that devs/GMs are spending a lot of effort defending them when the point is: you are making a game that you want people to want to play, so why are you putting something in that people don't enjoy? There is a lot of things that people could be doing to unlock these rewards that aren't dailies without 'double dipping'.

I am generalising that people don't enjoy them because that's what I see and I can honestly say that I've not seen anyone in guild, forums or chat do dailies because they enjoy them, only for the rewards. Now you might say 'rewards require effort' and I agree. Raids give rewards, require effort and millions of people log in because they want to raid. Pvp provides rewards, requires work and millions of people log in because they enjoy pvp. same can be said for pet battles, heroics, challenge modes and levelling. I just don't get why we are defending something that, for the most part, is done for the rewards and not because they are enjoyable?

If you made a game that was only raiding, people would still play it. If made a game that game that was on pvp, people would still play it. Same for pet battles and levelling etc. if you made a game that was only dailies then I doubt anyone would play it.


The ilvl required for some of the LFR is actually so high that even with all of those alternatives to valor gear it is difficult to get a high enough ilvl to do it. But more importantly is what I mentioned in my 1st post in this thread. People need valor gear to help them do regular raiding.


LFR requires 460.
Heroics drop 463.
Many other options listed by Sherbear can get you > 470 items.
If you need the crutch of high level gear to get you through intro raids, there's also LFR.

No excuse, really.

Only MSV requires 460. HoF and TES require 470. That's the problem. Ten points more doesn't seem like much but it actually represents a significant number of gear upgrades. Right now, 470 is extremely hard to hit without massively good luck with RNG in MSV, being incredibly rich - or doing dailies.

Someone who has been doing dailies can queue for HoF this week. Most of those who don't won't be able to get into HoF/TES until next year. And that is part of what's causing all the complaints about queue times right now. Fewer quality players who play the game to raid getting into the queue system because the gear they need is locked behind content they don't enjoy so the system is getting clogged up with a higher proportion of morons who think daily content is hard and that mechanics don't matter.

It's having a negative impact on the rest of the player base in the form of failing 2/6 queues and it is NOT the fault of the players making the choice not to do dailies. They were told they didn't need to do them to enjoy the content and progress. It's Blizzard fault for a badly designed gear reward system where the rewards for the very easy but hideously repetitive and boring solo content are better than the rewards for content that require some skill and abiity to coordinate in a group.

PvP gear should not factor in at all because Blizzard has stated that those who PvE shouldn't feel forced into PvP as a route to gear and yet that's what's happening to many players right now. PvP in some ways is far more generous in giving quality gear to players compared to PvE methods since it's strictly point based, has almost no RNG involved beyond whether you win or lose, and has a higher point per week cap than VP. You're guaranteed that new piece of gear every other week. Players are running LFR and getting nothing but gold week after week.

If the BG crowds start crying over the increased number of scrubs and bots in BGs, blame Blizzard and their item level requirement for HoF/TES, and the poor quality of options you have for getting it.
11/13/2012 10:35 AMPosted by Daxxarri
No doubt someone will mention profession recipes. Profession recipes have virtually always required some hoop jumping - ranging from RNG raid drops to rep grinds; the best recipes have always required a little something extra.


Ok, this is misleading & borderline false. We aren't talking the "best" recipes. The difference in MoP is that for some professions, ANY worthwhile pattern is locked behind rep grinds. Example: Tailoring. While leveling 85 to 90, you can learn level 85 gear & level 90 pvp gear. That's it. No pve gear that you would want to wear at 90 until you get rep. That is not the same as previous expansions. Sure, the high level epics were based upon drops & rep, but there were entry level epics that were available without being locked behind a gate.
11/14/2012 05:04 PMPosted by Cosnirak
@Lyddia: That's not helpful or funny. We pay money to play this game. We put lots of time and effort into it and Blizzard gets to make lots of money off of it. There's nothing wrong with expecting good service and making complaints and suggestions. I'm a little passionate about it at times sure but I'm not exactly running around my house fuming about it. That whole phrase "it's a game" doesn't inherently mean anything anyways. To the people that work at Blizzard it's more than just a game, it's their job. To many of the players it's a vehicle to social interaction. I connect with friends and make new ones thanks to WoW. If players aren't passionate about their games they may as well just be playing solitaire all day. Go troll somewhere more constructively please.


I'm sure you're a blast at parties.
By the way Librily, congrats. They just posted an article about your thread on WoWInsider.
Ugh, wowinsider. Even with the fangirlism about CRZ, their poll had between 55 and 60% saying that they would opt out if they could.


This, seriously, this.


The wheel was broken. Hence it got fixed. Remember all the threads about how people were bored to tears during cataclysm? Rewards were too easy to get at the end of WOTLK and throughout cataclysm. Now they are things worth putting in effort for. This after all isn't some FPS.


And that's fine.

The problem is, the next expansion, they will have spent more development time on reinventing the system AGAIN when instead they could just leave it as is and spend that time on more actual content. The same goes for talent trees. Pick a method and stick to it, forever. If anything, add other paths to rewards, instead of always having one and only one way to get a specific thing. They could do dailies AND rep tabards, with a shared cap on each - so the people who want to go the dailies route can, and the people who want to go the dungeons route can as well, or you could even do both, but it'd be because you wanted to, since you won't get a bonus for doing both other than your own entertainment. What I have a problem with is that the system just changes every expansion, and for no good reason.

Brawler's Guild is a good thing. Pet Battles is a good thing. Archaeology is a good thing. Scenarios, Challenges, "Farmville", and so on. More of THAT, less of system revamps for the sake of revamping systems - changing systems isn't compelling, content is.
They say they that are doing this . . . yet, I'm yet to see anything come out of this?

In other words, I've yet to see any player suggestions implemented, and more continued defence along with this token line of "we're listening"


Not to be cocky or condescending, but I'm not quite sure that you've ever worked on software that any number of people use. While a devout userbase is an extremely large blessing to any developer, it leads to a pitfall that we all face: lofty expectations. The issue is not that they aren't listening or don't implement it. Actually, there are things people spoke of as dreams long ago, such as LFR or cross-realm zones, that Blizzard implemented and did a phenomenal job at.

The issue is that you can't please a vocal minority without gauging the implications on the vast majority, and when you do try to appease the vocal minority, if it isn't elegant, it's 99.9% likely to anger another vocal minority. Another major issue is that in a game that millions play worldwide, you have to take into account and test to the fullest extent every little tweak that your users will touch. You can't afford to make a reactionary judgment call and risk ruining your time table for progression or content. Every little change must be treated as a possible gamebreaker, and while you may not think so, shareholders who want to hear about success, not recovery. You're judged by the elegance of your solution, and because of this, the best solution is never a reactionary one. This isn't Facebook where the time from idea to shipping is days. Economies, guild progression, player schedules, and, overall, the stability of the entire game depends on every little change being at least "decent".
11/13/2012 10:35 AMPosted by Daxxarri
I have one question: Where's the proof?


The OP has a point.. They did specifically say that they felt it was too much for players to feel that they had to grind reputations for head and shoulder enchants and then they turn around and put the enchants for other slots behind reputations.


Not really. They're different things. The enchantments were absolutely, without-question mandatory, because there was no other way to obtain those particular power increases no matter what else you did in the game.

The current dailies might feel that mandatory to some particularly progression focused players, but it is entirely possible to skip them, and the gear they provide, pretty much entirely and still arrive at the same level of character potency.

No doubt someone will mention profession recipes. Profession recipes have virtually always required some hoop jumping - ranging from RNG raid drops to rep grinds; the best recipes have always required a little something extra.


I have one question: Where's the proof?

I'm not interested in citing the entire massive list directly, but World of Warcraft has a long history of adjustments in response to player feedback. A couple simple recent examples would be raising the Arena and Rated Battleground base point caps or the upcoming changes to the way that Pandaria faction reputation is gained by alternate characters on an account.

When something you feel strongly about hasn't been changed, that doesn't mean that we've dismissed feedback. In fact, sometimes we really like a suggestion, but implementing it doesn't quite fit into the schedule yet, or there are technical or design reasons why it doesn't fit into the game yet. Sometimes, we want to wait til we can implement a more elegant solution. And, of course, sometimes we simply disagree that a particular change is the right course for the game. Nonetheless, in none of these cases is feedback dismissed - it was still taken into account during the decision making process.


You say all this.. Yet, you still nerf shamans...
This thread makes me think of how priests said all during beta they were going to have problems then no changes were made and then a month after launch they had to be hotfixed because they didn't listen to feedback from beta.
Blizzard has always listened to player feedback for ALL of their games and they regularly make changes based purely off the feedback. That said, the players aren't always right nor do they always know what they actually want out of a game (they just think they do). I think people forget that Blizzard created these games, they're the masterminds behind it all. They usually know whats best and make the right call.

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