Windsong, Elemental Force, Jade Spirit?

Priest
After looking through these forums, and through countless other online recourses, I can not find anything concrete on which most beneficial for DPS. I currently use Windsong, but I feel as Elemental Force may be more beneficial. Not only does Elemental Force proc more often, but it's a guaranteed increase in DPS. With Windsong, a 1/3 chance for a haste proc is nice, however (assuming you are haste soft capped) the increase in damage I would think isn't terribly significant. The 1/3 chance for a crit proc is pretty nice, however because of the way DoTs work, unless you clip them with that crit buff, we gain very little from the effect. Lastly, a Mastery proc is virtually useless because of how bad Mastery is for us this expansion. As for Jade Spirit, I have no personal experience with.

My logic behind this thought may be flawed, or completely inaccurate, but if anyone could possibly weigh in with some concrete numbers or personal experience I would appreciate it.
Jade Spirit > Windsong, but wait until you get a decent weapon drop before you upgrade due to cost.
Thanks.

Yeah, I didn't count on being the unluckiest player in World of Warcraft when it comes to getting a weapon.
I just want to say that your helm and armory pose are pretty grand together.
11/06/2012 05:04 PMPosted by Woaden
Jade Spirit > Windsong, but wait until you get a decent weapon drop before you upgrade due to cost.


Wrong.

Windsong procs a retarded amount and ends up significantly better than Jade spirit on average. The two are balanced around 40-50% combined uptime for windsong, but most people see numbers around 80-120% commonly, which makes it hands down the better enchant.

Might get nerfed in the future, 40%+haste is what it's SUPPOSED to be so keep an eye on it. Actually it might have already been nerfed, most of my kills as disc today are showing around 50% uptime, but none of the kills I've checked for myself or our shadowpriests show below a 40% and there are some that are still in the 80+ range. If this is the case, windsong is still a very good choice, probably the best in most situations.
Jade Spirit has ~25% uptime. I have literally never seen a combined Windsong uptime of more than around 50-60%, with it more commonly being in the 40-50% range for all procs combined. Though I don't think it has an ICD, so I guess it is possible, but it's certainly not normal or expected. Basically from what I've seen Jade Spirit averages out to approximately a little over 400 int vs around 700 or so secondary stats, of those, only subcap haste is even noteworthy. They're not miles apart, but Jade Spirit is definitely better on average.
Windsong procs a retarded amount and ends up significantly better than Jade spirit on average. The two are balanced around 40-50% combined uptime for windsong, but most people see numbers around 80-120% commonly, which makes it hands down the better enchant.


never seen that kind of uptime 80-120% on all three buffs put together (which is what i assume you're talking about) i really think that number is highly suspect. in addition the problem is that the other secondary stats aside from haste don't benefit shadow very much, while haste's value also drops off dramatically as you pass over the break point at 8085. jade spirit is a ton of intellect and averages out to be 363 pp and windsong is 320 according to kilee's math from this post here http://tinyurl.com/ckgc6fs

the reasoning mostly behind this that haste was overvalued to begin with and isn't really worth as much pp, it's closer to crit's value when used to value windsong. int is a far stronger stat than any secondary stat, period.
One of our shadowpriests today had 82.8% on our 25h stone guard kill. That same priest had 51.9% on feng and 54.6 on garajal (all heroic). No telling how accurate garajal is of course.

Our other shadowpriest had 78% on stone guard, 58% on feng and 63.1% on garajal.

My own numbers (disc) were 61.1 on stone guard, 60% on feng and 65.2% on garajal

Notice a pattern yet? not a single one is below 50%. I don't think ive seen a single kill under 40%. Numbers over 80% on the other hand happen reasonably often. I do have reason to believe there has been some kind of nerf though, the last time I went through like this I turned up numbers well over 100% at least 1 in 4 parses. Still, at a 60% + average it's a great enchant and keep in mind that I have practically NO haste, and I'm still getting a high proc rate (it is supposed to scale with haste).

Our logs can be found under aftermath, on lightning's blade US if you look us up by realm. Publicly listed always. Feel free to pull numbers from any of our previous kills (i recommend focusing on kills rather than attempts).
i've been using jade spirit for sometime, and i feel that it is quite a significant dps loss currently.

i am just over the haste breakpoint, and will probably switch to windsong when i log back online.
11/06/2012 09:53 PMPosted by Nixxe
Jade Spirit has ~25% uptime. I have literally never seen a combined Windsong uptime of more than around 50-60%, with it more commonly being in the 40-50% range for all procs combined.


The fire mage in my raid was using Jade Spirit on his weapon and ended up replacing it back with Windsong because he said it was a noticeable DPS loss for him. It seems as though Jade Spirit is broken, or Windsong should be nurfed?

One of our shadowpriests today had 82.8% on our 25h stone guard kill. That same priest had 51.9% on feng and 54.6 on garajal (all heroic). No telling how accurate garajal is of course.

Our other shadowpriest had 78% on stone guard, 58% on feng and 63.1% on garajal.

My own numbers (disc) were 61.1 on stone guard, 60% on feng and 65.2% on garajal


This is really awesome, and exactly the kind of thing I was looking for. Thank you for taking the time to look into your logs to share this with us!

It would appear that because of the uptime Windsong is more beneficial than Jade Spirit, but IS it a DPS increase? Regarding our haste cap, and how weak mastery is for us, I am curious to see how the damage from Elemental Force compares. Perhaps I'll try both on a dummy or even during raid tomorrow and share logs.

11/06/2012 08:14 PMPosted by Iapetus
I just want to say that your helm and armory pose are pretty grand together.


AM I PRETTY?
11/06/2012 09:44 PMPosted by Sotanaht
Wrong.


A random secondary proc (other than crit) will do you ZERO good if you happen to be mind blasting or mind spiking in the very few seconds it would be proced. Windsong ONLY helps your dots if you happen to re apply them at the time of the optimal proc. Are you going to refresh your dots every time you get the proc you need/want, dont think so. Jade spirit's spellpower/int proc is going to be useful no matter what you are casting while it's proced.

Stat that's always helpful and TOP priority > Stat that may or may not help you at the second of proc
Looking specifically at single target damage, Jade Spirit appears to come out ahead. Jade Spirit averages 23-25% uptime across all bosses, which is around 400 Intellect as mentioned above.

Windsong is a little trickier to calculate though.

Looking at Feng and Elegon kills specifically, you notice that Windsong generally averages an uptime of 45-60%. For me, the stat values above the haste plateau are as follows:

Intellect > Hit to cap > Hast = Crit > Mastery, where haste and crit are about .4 per Intellect, and Mastery is about .3 per Intellect.

I'm going to say that Windsong has about a 52.5% uptime, 35% of that being crit and haste, and the other 17.5 is mastery. A 35% uptime is about 525 haste and crit, and 262.5 mastery. With my statweights, this puts Wingsong at an average of 288.6 EP. At 45% uptime, that's about 250 EP, and at 60% uptime, that's about 330 EP. Windsong can proc more or less than this, but I want to say that the average EP for Windsong on single target fights is at best 350 versus the 400 of Jade Spirit enchant.

When you go to a multi-dot fight like The Stone Guard, you are going to notice much higher uptimes on Windsong, while Jade Spirit will remain the same 400 intellect. It looks like Windsong averages around 75-80% uptime on The Stone Guard. I'm going to use 80% because that number is going to be easy to play with.

Crit and Haste from Windsong will average out to be 53% of the uptime, while Mastery will be the other 27% of uptime. This means you will proc somewhere around 795 crit and haste, and around 405 Mastey for a total of about 440 EP.

Bascially, Windsong is better on fights where you are going to be constantly DoTing two or more targets, Jade Spirit is better on fights where you are usually on 1 target.

For Mogu'shan Vaults specifically, I see Windsong being better on The Stone Guard and Will of the Emperor, and possibly Elegon, but for Gara'jal, Feng, and Spirit Kings, I will prefer Jade Spirit.
I remember seeing it said somewhere that Windsong wasn't proccing from dot ticks for us like it was for melee classes on their auto attacks, and therefore even Power Torrent was a better choice than Windsong until Jade Spirit was obtainable.

c/d?
@theyas, that was happening about 2-3(?) weeks ago, but it has long since been fixed. :)
Just want to chime in that there was a discussion about Windsong on MMO.C's mage forum. The up times of over ~80% was a bug, and I think that it was hotfixed, I forget the exact reasoning, but if anyone wants to go digging through the post to find the discussion it was in the fire mage guide.

I'd think that this sort of thing would be simmed out already? And if not you could possibly sim it yourself and find out what is better. I imagine that it would change depending on what the PP of stats are for you at your current gear level.
Once you are at the haste threshold you get significantly less value from 1/3 of the procs, and mastery is meh at best....so yeah, Jade is clearly the best unless maybe you are very under geared.
11/07/2012 07:06 AMPosted by Lelliana
Lmao, random person trying to argue with Woaden, I love it!


sotan is far from a random person. you may not agree with his opinion but at worst the enchants aren't too far off from each other, at least until the proc on windsong gets a bit of nerfage. like you, i happen to think jade spirit is the superior enchant, but sotan isn't *trying* to argue with woaden, he has data, and the proc rates at least certainly seem to check out. i wont be switching my enchant based on the higher uptime on secondary stats though.

e: for future reference, it's poor form to go around randomly poking fun at a person, especially when you don't realize they have the experience, know-how and logs to back up the claims or opinions they are putting forth.

e2: when did i turn into the good guy watchdog of this forum?


Lmao, random person trying to argue with Woaden, I love it!


Yeah, everyone knows who Woaden is. Even those who don't know who he is. Including those who may have never posted here before or aren't familiar with the priest community personalities.

But hey, to balls with discussion about something that is potentially open to debate and discussion, that not everyone knows everything about. They're dirty !@#$ing casuals anyway who should already know everything about this game, am I right?
While, I'll lean towards Jade Spirit at the end. I am currently enjoying getting Windsong to proc for the haste, mastery and crit bonus. >_>

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