Stacking expertise best tanking gear? Really.

Did the "internal data" miss that prot paladins gain more from stacking expertise to 15% than actually taking tank stats like dodge/parry/mastery?

Is this really intentional, that you are actually hurting yourself if you took the "hey these look like tanking items with tanking stats"?

Are we really intentionally better off wearing many pieces of ret gear, queueing as RET in LFR works for me since I can avoid a 30m-1h queue.

Big spoiler, nerfing holy wrath damage - basically gutting it - doesn't change anything besides further worsening our already worst in role AE tanking, and the WOG glyph change lowers our dps even more when we basically only have "sometimes higher" dps while being worse mitigation/reactive healing wise than any other tank. Warriors and Blood DKS run around full health soloing bosses and challenge modes, yet you're gutting what little we had going for us? M'kay!

Someone grab a calculator and assess that whole "guaranteeing no parries means more consistent holy power generation meaning more shield uptime as being vastly superior than dodge/parry/mastery in all situations."

Or is this where some sort of secret internal simulation (that must be really swell to have missed an outperforming HW and WOG glyph uptime issues) will trump some pretty obvious math?
It's what I've done, and it's working well for me. I always have the HoPo when I need it. Could I drop to 12% exp and up my mastery a bit? Sure. Could I do that with haste instead? Absolutely. Would it make a huge difference either way? Probably not. Will it be more important when I'm in heroics in later raids? I honestly don't know yet.

Now, do you feel more comfortable with more mastery and less expertise? Then do that. If it works for you and your play style, that's what you should go for.

(Just for the record, the neck piece is the only "dps" piece I have on, and that's for haste, not expertise).

Here's calculations for it. Credits to Theck for it.
All in all, you have some sort of valid points, but you wrapped it up in so much hyperbole that it's hard to really distinguish :-(

The Holy Wrath change is a little odd, I can't understand why they're focusing several nerfs/buffs on one of our filler abilities that nobody actually likes anyways, but it's hardly going to gut our damage output like you imply. Yeah, it's a nerf, not a tremendous one though.

As far as the WoG glyph goes, there are two possibilities:

1) It's merely a fix for the WoG/Harsh Words glyph bug that they haven't gotten around to fixing in a while, and it will still proc when used on yourself. Working as intended.

2) They phrased these patch notes horribly, and the glyph only procs when you use it on others, which is a silly change. It's not a fantastic Prot glyph as-is though, so I wouldn't be terribly torn up about it, but I definitely would be a bit perplexed.

As far as the stat priority/reforging... I agree that it is really, really dumb that our gear is loaded with stats that are extremely weak. However, I really like that we have the option of reforging into stats that put the control into our own hands. I think they need to come up with a way to tie avoidance stats into that - maybe give Grand Crusader a chance to proc off of dodges/parries (with a reasonable cooldown of course), and then perhaps cut back the chance to proc off of CS/HotR by 5% or something.

SOMETHING to make them be more appealing.
Gutting Holy Wrath's damage? All they did was remove the base damage. The attack power coefficient is where the vast majority of its damage comes from.

"Friendly targets" include the player. Casting WoG as a heal on anyone, even yourself, will still proc the glyph. This change only makes it not work with Harsh Word (which it wasn't supposed to do in the first place).
Actually, Holy Wrath beats Consecration in single target rotation (I sadly tested it on target dummies without the minor glyph which was why it was originally under Cons) and beats Hammer of Wrath when enemies are 20% or below health with Glyph of Final Wrath. I find Holy Wrath much better now than what it was back in Cataclysm, but that's just my opinion on the matter.
They're nerfing Holy Wrath after they just buffed it? Source?
10/27/2012 12:14 PMPosted by Invincible
They're nerfing Holy Wrath after they just buffed it? Source?

It was datamined by MMO-Champion in the latest PTR build.

And honestly, I find it really, really unlikely that Blizzard would actually remove the base damage. Reduce, yes, but not remove. Most likely it's a datamining error.
Man that would suxk holy wrath is my favorite prot spell. I use the glyph and it hits like 70k in the execute phase.

Makes sense though.
If this change is real, it won't really affect its damage very much. It has 8k base damage, so reduce the damage you're seeing by 8k and that's what it'll do after the change.
10/27/2012 02:35 AMPosted by Nannie
and the WOG glyph change lowers our dps even more

It was not intentional, they stated this in beta. You shouldn't be using the WOG glyph anyway.
I came here seeking answers, and I did read the linked article <o.O MATHS> I just can't seem to wrap my head around the basics here. Am I really to believe that stacking hit and exp can really reduce DTPS? And as an aside to that does going past the 7.5/7.5 hit/exp continue to make a difference?

I haven't tanked in this expac yet due to all the changes and the imo poop active mitigation stuff. I still want to learn, though.

My opinion about AM is that we as tanks already have enough to worry about without it. I can sympathize with tanks that felt bored because tanking last expac was supposedly faceroll, but I never thought that.
m I really to believe that stacking hit and exp can really reduce DTPS? And as an aside to that does going past the 7.5/7.5 hit/exp continue to make a difference?

For the first question yes, because you generate more holy power which is what your active mitigation is based on. If you miss, you get no holy power. no holy power = no active mitigation.

For the second question, you (unlike most melee dps) are forced to face the boss at all times, so you can still get parried. while hit above 7.5% won't do you much good, expertise all the way to 15% ensures that you take parries out of the equation, meaning more holy power, which equals more active mitigation, which equals more survival.
Thanks for the info!

I wonder if this is one of those things that will change. I never was a big fan of having tank dps enter in to much of an equation, other than threat generation. I also really liked the CTC model for Cata. It gave a clear thing to shoot for.

Hit and exp are something the game could do without in my opinion if not for the sake of all specs, at the very least for tanking.

Getting a new piece of gear loses some of its appeal when you start looking at costs and the laundry list of things you have to do to all your stuff once you put it on... Don't get me wrong it certainly beats "Oh I have to hold onto this piece till I get X" but still its starting to get quite complex. Everyone has their championed method, be it manual or with an assisting site or addon and the number of steps to fully max a new piece of gear keeps getting longer and longer.
CTC capping was a mess, to be honest. I am very glad that they got rid of it and put the new model in place - it's far from perfect, but it's an improvement to be largely reliant on your abilities rather than your gear.

AM really isn't that difficult, it's been overstated a lot. Get Holy Power, use it on ShoR (or WoG if you need to heal yourself), congrats! That's the majority of your AM. Otherwise, you have Sacred Shield to roll on yourself (use it once every 30 seconds, and it's not the end of the world if it falls off) and then cooldowns (which were of utmost importance pre-MoP anyways, so no change at all). You also get a lot of passive self-healing from Seal of Insight.

I like Hit/Exp capping in my tank spec. Having the reliability makes the game more fun, both offensively and defensively.

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