hmm?

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Absolutely. I can get myself in the mood for a good grind every once in a while, but I sure as heck can't do it every single day.


So... playing for 10 minutes a day is hard, amirite?

"Grinding" ~7 dailies a day can't be done?

Oh wait, you DON'T have to do it every day!

Instead of 7 dailies a day, why not do 14 every other day?

Or take twice a week and do 28 dailies? As long as you get 90 charms within 7 days, you have a choice.
11/05/2012 08:59 PMPosted by Tatianaz
I would admit that they need to address these concerns, however, that's not even the subject of the OP. He's talking about methods of obtaining coins, not the absurdity of winning the same item 3 times in a row.


Yeah just thought id raise this issue while a Blue is actively posting cause its so frustrating just vendoring things or not being able to trade them to people who could use them for another item.


Like i've said, this has been a issue long before this system. though! light bulb! they should have a way to disenchant items that you won if you already have them. This is what we did in all my guild runs on normal if something dropped that no one needed, or everyone had.
11/05/2012 08:22 PMPosted by Naiyr
[quote]
I log into the game everyday, and I never log out feeling like I made no progress. I can't say the same about my time in Cataclysm.


Your idea of progress is very different then mine, and I'm guessing a lot of other peoples.

Making something slower to get isn't content
Making something repeatable isn't content

"There's nothing to do" is just as bad as "All I have to do is dailies".

You guys have solved nothing but provided a way to create the illusion of content through repeat nonsense. Likely the reason I have 300 days played, 98% of which are from WoW --> end of WoTLK.


So what were you exactly doing back before WoTLK?
11/05/2012 08:57 PMPosted by Kyriani
And spare me the "upgrade your gear with valor" talking point cause we don't even know for sure that a) its going to actually go live with 5.1, b) if it does we don't know whats required to access it and c) even if there's no unlock required that doesn't address the issue of profession recipes.


Its going to be in 5.1. It was ready at launch but was held back. There will be a consortium guy who does it, probably in the same room as the void bank guy. Profession recipes are for completionists. Not gaining access to them doesnt hurt you since the items are boe and can be bought from someone who does like dailies.


I'm not terribly interested in Valor purples, and I'm not interested in extra rewards without extra effort. I'm okay with the daily system: I don't like them, I don't do a lot of them, and I don't care that I'm not earning the rewards tied to them. I simply want the rewards specifically for raids to be tied specifically to raiding.


In what way are the Valor points tailored specifically towards raiding?

Explain that to me.

You can trade in valor for conquest points. Thus PvPers get a nice reward from valor points. Valor gear is useful in challenge mode dungeons as well as improving your character for the sake of solo play. Thus they are useful for you outside of raiding in PvE content as well.

The rewards are simply rewards, the points are simply points. How you use them is ENTIRELY up to you. If you want the rewards off the rep vendors though, you have to earn the rep required to buy them. This isn't a hard concept to understand, nor is it an unfair concept for the player.

Valor points are EXTRA rewards on top of justice points, gold and gear for running heroics.

Valor points are EXTRA rewards on top of lesser charms and rep for doing dailies.

You can use the points however you want. If you have the rep you can use them to buy the rep gear. If you don't well then you can still use them for the PvP gear.


They aren't, that is why I said I am not interested in them. I am talking about Elder Charms.
Look, theres nothing wrong with having the coins on the dailies in and of itself, I realize something has to be done to earn them, and dailies are as good a thing as any. The only thing I will complain about is saying that no one has to do dailies, which is the current blizzard line. The logic behind this is essentially the same logic behind saying you don't have to play the game.

Dailies are currently ESSENTIAL for many of us to be able to do what we actually want to do. In order to raid properly, we MUST do dailies. The problem is that they have absolutely nothing to do with raiding in any form except by their rewards. They should be a completely separate aspect of the game but they are being too heavily tied together with raiding. Let the dailies exist for rewards that do NOT tie directly to raiding or PvP (EG mounts, tabards, xmogs etc), and no one will feel like they have to complete them.

It's fine to tie group content in with raiding. 5mans have always been required to raid, at least for starting out. The idea of starting with groups and then growing into raids flows logically. Solo content does not.


A lot of what you said, in terms of proper raiding and Rep gear being essential, that's a player-driven system. Specifically, a certain type of player believes those are the established norms. And that's fine, BTW. I have no problem with that.

It does, however, seem like you've discounted the idea that other players might have their own norms. They might seek their own variety of progression, at their own rate, under their own parameters. Blizzard's goal is to find systems that offer benefits to both your type, and all the other types.

Therefore, Blizzard comes up with multiple avenues of progression. If you are the kind of player who wants every edge for proper raiding, that's cool. Blizzard has pretty clearly spelled out what THEY think you should have to do to be that dedicated.
Holycrap the amount of Crying on this one, i can actually see why blues don't pay attention to your whining.

ONE blue gave a response (and a good one, read it two, three, hell. six times, you wont see flaw), and you grab whatever you can, and twist it to your own understanding of it.

Be objetive, fools.
Every day I don't finish all of my dailies, I feel like I've missed out. That I'm now behind where I could be. And how do I catch up? I don't. I'll never catch up, I'll always be behind. This puts an overwhelming burden on completing every daily every day. And each day I don't meet these goals set by the game, it's demotivating. Why keep trying since I'll never catch up?

My valor is capped for the week, my charms are capped for the next several weeks, and every post I make or read I'm feeling more and more behind schedule. But I've fallen so far behind now, that I don't want to try and catch up.


...with the nature of min/maxing in WoW, people will naturally feel that they are forced to do this in order to keep "caught up" so to speak.


The thing is, this isn't really something Blizzard has any control over. You feel this way because that's just your personality. Blizzard created a certain number of paths to progression. If you feel compelled to use all of them as quickly as possible, to avoid falling behind (or any other reason), that's not really on them. Nowhere in Blizzard's game structure is "falling behind" established. That's done by players.


Blizzard needs to accept that that is how a very large parentage of players are going to feel then, regardless of their intents, and work to make sure that those players are not overburdened by what blizzard provides even with the best of intentions. No amount of saying dailies aren't required for raids is going to change the fact that most of us will find that they are very much a requirement with the way things are currently set up, and maybe blizzard should make some changes to make sure that we don't feel QUITE so negatively about a system that was supposed to be a positive.
but what is the point of having purple gear if you aren't raiding? I'm sure most folk have settled on a transmog at this point that they enjoy, or are seeking. I haven't seen many pieces or sets in this expac that I would care for (my opinion) That seems to be the biggest question. What do you need 489 gear for OTHER than raiding? LFR drops 476 challenge mode drops you to 463 anyway, the only reason for VP gear to exist is to fill in the missing slots for a raider. The people who are making points towards non raiding content blocking them or gating them as some have chosen to say it have valid concerns. And to the people who keep throwing out that double dipping line just stop it. If I am capped at x then what difference does it make that the rewards came from y or z.. A raider has no use for the drops in a heroic after a certain time but darn sure can use the VP to get that stupid neck piece, ring or trinket that never drops.


In what way are the Valor points tailored specifically towards raiding?

Explain that to me.

You can trade in valor for conquest points. Thus PvPers get a nice reward from valor points. Valor gear is useful in challenge mode dungeons as well as improving your character for the sake of solo play. Thus they are useful for you outside of raiding in PvE content as well.

The rewards are simply rewards, the points are simply points. How you use them is ENTIRELY up to you. If you want the rewards off the rep vendors though, you have to earn the rep required to buy them. This isn't a hard concept to understand, nor is it an unfair concept for the player.

Valor points are EXTRA rewards on top of justice points, gold and gear for running heroics.

Valor points are EXTRA rewards on top of lesser charms and rep for doing dailies.

You can use the points however you want. If you have the rep you can use them to buy the rep gear. If you don't well then you can still use them for the PvP gear.


They aren't, that is why I said I am not interested in them. I am talking about Elder Charms.


In that case, Zaryhm's first point is accurate.

The charms reward extra optional gear from raids but require you to do something outside of raid to earn them.

That's the entire point.

They are rewards for doing something in game other than raiding. If you don't want the coins you don't need to have them, they are not required in any sense of the word for progression purposes. The loot model for raids has been unchanged since BC and hasn't been complained about much outside of RNG.

They are simply adding to that model, not taking anything away, but requiring that if raiders want the extra chances they do extra things other than raiding.

In what way does that not make sense?
11/05/2012 08:48 PMPosted by Zarhym
Leading up to Mists, we talked a lot about having as many options as possible for players to play how they want to. That means you have a lot of choices, and some of them will provide you with extra advantages in other pieces of content (bonus rolls, VP loot from factions, etc.). Regardless of your opinion on our delivery, I think it's fair to say we really did give people a lot of choices. But if the standard mentality is, "I must do ALL THE THINGS if I can," rather than, "I must do all the things I find fun that will progress my character, time permitting" you'll surely feel overwhelmed.


But if the mentality is your recommended "I must do all the things I find fun that will progress my character, time permitting" then you're stuck with only LFR/raids and dailies after 463. That leaves less content to do (if you don't like dailies) than we've ever had in all of WoW's history, which is kind of disappointing. You've always given me a reason to run dungeons. Ever since my resto druid in classic running dungeons for Argent Crusade rep.

Now we're stuck hoping beyond hope that you actually ship the VP upgrade system really soon, and that you won't shove it behind some rep or another. Otherwise we get 1-2 hours of LFR a week unless we can commit to a raid schedule.
11/05/2012 07:33 PMPosted by Zarhym
Is the only way to get the Elder Charm Coins is by doing dailys by getting 90 of the good coins and turning them into 3 elder...? that sort of forces u into dailys if so.. because u know people want that extra chance in Raid to get the gear so your know there going do dailys to get a silly coin that doesnt even help one bit gg..

"Gear drops in raids like it always has."
"I like gear like I always have."
"But I want bonus chances at that gear."
"I have to do something to earn bonus chances at that gear?!"
"I don't want to do something to earn bonus chances at that gear!"
"That thing I don't want to do that would earn me bonus chances at that gear, doesn't earn me bonus chances at that gear!"

Let me know if that's an accurate summary, as well as what you're talking about. o.O


Really wish you would have replied to the legitimate gripes about dailies rather than responding to a troll post about tokens...sigh.
11/05/2012 09:06 PMPosted by Rangikuu
but what is the point of having purple gear if you aren't raiding


It lets me do the content i do enjoy doing faster so i can do more of it. It also lets me get gear incase i do feel like raiding in the future. Ill have some gear and be able to step into a raid feeling like i can be useful and not be carried.
11/05/2012 08:58 PMPosted by Zavala
It is up to the CM, not the players, to set the standard when it comes to meaningful debate and conversation. Showing otherwise further condones bad behaviour and meaningless posts in this thread and others all over general.


I see this completely differently. Blizzard is talking to (and I hate to admit it) a very imature audience. Every representative you see on the forums is also a player, they talk to you as a player, not just a person who works for a large corporation.

The threads they respond to are not written professionally, most aren't even well thought out. If they try to act like a bunch of stiff suit businessmen, it really wouldn't fit the general player base of a game.

He didn't even get snarky or mean, he merely pointed out that the OP contradicted himself.
11/05/2012 08:35 PMPosted by Altimax
Would be a huge help if it was made a currency I didn't have to carry around in my bags. I've earned so many, but can only turn in half a stack per week, so they keep piling up and spilling over into bag slots.


See patch notes for 5.1
11/05/2012 08:48 PMPosted by Zarhym
Just like with all other games I play, I don't choose to measure how my time is spent in the game -- or whether or not I'm enjoying it -- against the players in STARS, Vodka, Blood Legion, or any of the other hardcore guilds out there, or the people who can devote hours upon hours more time to this game than me.


I don't base my progress or enjoyment on the mega sponsored guilds. I'm not that good. I never will be. I wish I was, but I'm not. I'm ok with that. What I do base my progress on is how much of what is presented I can personally attain. The thing is, pushing for that progress is a chore, not enjoyment. I feel that I'm forced, whether you (not you personally, but the entity you represent as a whole) agree with it being forced or not, to max out everything that I can before I can enjoy what I want. I like doing heroic 5 mans. I prefer doing them over dailies. But I also prefer to do them in something other than iLvl 450 quest gear, or 458 JP gear. And if I force myself to grind out the reps, I'll be able to get something more than 458 JP, or 463 heroic gear. And once I have that I'll be able to enjoy running dungeons. As long as I don't have the VP gear, or the rep to get the VP gear once I get the VP, then I feel like I'm not accomplishing anything, and it's not fun at all.

My ideal game would be logging in, running dungeon after dungeon after dungeon gathering points and then spending those points to get better gear. Not just slightly better gear though. Not gear that is actually worse than what I might get from those dungeons. I want my JP gear to be on par with what dungeons drop, and I want my valor gear to be superior, and I want to be able to earn that VP gear without grinding rep first. If I grind the points in dungeons, I should be able to use them. That is what I want to do. Get points, and spend them. Not get points, grind rep outside of dungeons, and then spend those points to get something to go back into the dungeons.
Look out! Zarhym posted a wall of text!

Look how the whiners begin to twist and/or find meaning between every word to mount their argument!

/popcorn


I think what should be taken out of the responses of those players frustrated at the CMs response is the standard of discourse that is being set, through said CM, in threads like this.

A CM is blizzards representative on these forums and the closest we come to hearing/seeing information straight from "the horses mouth". Now the wow forums are at times very cynical and baiting/trolling can be rife, but for a CM to come into a thread (one that didn't dignify a response) and basically condone certain behaviours through both the language he used and the context he used it in is quite disgraceful and reflects pretty poorly on both blizzard and the CM team.

It is up to the CM, not the players, to set the standard when it comes to meaningful debate and conversation. Showing otherwise further condones bad behaviour and meaningless posts in this thread and others all over general.


Excellent, sounds like the perfect employee Blizzard needs to employ for CM. Zarhym, you guys still hiring? We have a perfect veteran community manager who can show you guys how to do it right.


I rest my case
11/05/2012 09:09 PMPosted by Arkthan
but what is the point of having purple gear if you aren't raiding


It lets me do the content i do enjoy doing faster so i can do more of it. It also lets me get gear incase i do feel like raiding in the future. Ill have some gear and be able to step into a raid feeling like i can be useful and not be carried.


Agreed there


They aren't, that is why I said I am not interested in them. I am talking about Elder Charms.


In that case, Zaryhm's first point is accurate.

The charms reward extra optional gear from raids but require you to do something outside of raid to earn them.

That's the entire point.

They are rewards for doing something in game other than raiding. If you don't want the coins you don't need to have them, they are not required in any sense of the word for progression purposes. The loot model for raids has been unchanged since BC and hasn't been complained about much outside of RNG.

They are simply adding to that model, not taking anything away, but requiring that if raiders want the extra chances they do extra things other than raiding.

In what way does that not make sense?


It doesn't make sense to me, personally, because of the contradictory attitude of not allowing things such as reputation to be earning by doing non-quest content. Currently the standard is, "Some things you must earn by doing ONLY the content related to the rewards. Other things you must earn by doing ONLY content completely unrelated to the rewards." I see no sense in contradictory reward systems.

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